On being SEEN - NOTICED- LOOK!
#26
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Kudos. You were very patient with him. More so than I would have been. Why are some cyclists so contrary? I mean ... even if I read somewhere that red flashers blah, blah ... criminy, I go out at night! I've been in cars at night! I SEE for myself that red flashers trump anything else that is lit at night except another red flasher. Or a white flasher. Bottom line: flashing gets more attention than solid. Its not debatable.
There was another recent thread where somebody claimed that high-visibility clothing didn't work because it wasn't perfect (there were cases where some people using it still got hit). There was another thread where somebody claimed that black was a high-visibility color.
I was going to mention that real world observations show how well flashers work. (I ride with groups at dusk and pay attention to how different lights perform.)
A flashing rear light is more likely to register as being a cyclist than a solid rear light (which could be confused with driveway reflectors).
While there is an issue with tracking flashing objects, that's mostly irrelevant for rear lights because the light can be recognized much further than tracking is necessary.
I presume you mean that Oregon allows flashing lights but doesn't require the lights to be flashing. Understanding what is better (regardless of the law) is never moot!
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-01-19 at 04:53 PM.
#27
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(I did read the actual text because I didn't want to give police any excuse to ticket me. I was stopped eight times in two years for walking in public -- literally that, sometimes in my neighborhood, sometimes in the areas around it -- and the places I ride put me in the patrol areas of those same guys, so .. I try to run a tight ship. The more that went on the more contentious it got, and I'm afraid they and I aren't friends any more. )
Last edited by rseeker; 07-01-19 at 05:27 PM.
#30
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That might be true, I'll have to look again.
(I did read the actual text because I didn't want to give police any excuse to ticket me. I was stopped eight times in two years for walking in public -- literally that, sometimes in my neighborhood, sometimes in the areas around it -- and the places I ride put me in the patrol areas of those same guys, so .. I try to run a tight ship. The more that went on the more contentious it got, and I'm afraid they and I aren't friends any more. )
(I did read the actual text because I didn't want to give police any excuse to ticket me. I was stopped eight times in two years for walking in public -- literally that, sometimes in my neighborhood, sometimes in the areas around it -- and the places I ride put me in the patrol areas of those same guys, so .. I try to run a tight ship. The more that went on the more contentious it got, and I'm afraid they and I aren't friends any more. )
This copy of the OR laws don't mention flashing. It's poorly written. In one place, it's up to 500 feet (at night). In another, it's up to 600 feet in lawful lower beams (at day??).
https://www.bikelaw.com/2019/04/oregon-bike-laws/
- Every bicycle must be equipped with a white front facing headlight, and a red rear reflector or light, visible from at least 500 feet when used at nighttime.
- Every bicycle must have a red reflector or lighting device or material of such size or characteristics and so mounted as to be visible from all distances up to 600 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful lower beams of headlights on a motor vehicle.
Trying to "run a tight ship" is reasonable. (I'd have to have more info about you getting stopped for walking in public before considering what that means.)
(Flashing lights are illegal in Germany.)
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-01-19 at 05:46 PM.
#31
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I checked and you're right, here it's nighttime only, front white light and rear reflector required but only at night.
Maybe another time, since this is a bike forum. I thought it was worth mentioning a reason for wanting to be 100% legal when most people get away without being so strict.
Trying to "run a tight ship" is reasonable. (I'd have to have more info about you getting stopped for walking in public before considering what that means.)
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My recommendation has always been to run multiple lights, some flashing and some solid. I run continuous dyno lights front and rear, augmented in the back with 2 continuous LEDs left and right (about a foot apart), another flashing LED at my saddle, and another flashing LED on my helmet. In front, I augment the continuous dyno headlamp with another continuous LED mounted at the axle. Sometimes I'll use a helmet mounted LED as well. During the day, I just run with the dyno lighting. Does it work? Well, I've only been hit once and that was during the day by a motorist who did see me just fine. I do employ other strategies like lane placement and looming. Looming is shifting left and right in an empty lane to further impress on approaching motorists that I am traveling on the road too, hopefully eliminating "motion camouflage".
No illumination scheme will protect against a drunk or distracted driver so let's all be careful mates!
#36
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The other issue is "motion camouflage" where motorists perceive you to stay at some distance and become blind to their approach speed. The key is to be seen, recognised as a cyclist traveling in a specific direction and speed, and then given room when the motorist passes.
Distracted drivers tend to be distracted for fairly short periods (if the periods were really long, they would have already crashed).
Being noticeable for longer distances means you are providing more time to be noticed. That is, you want to be noticeable for a longer period than the period of being distracted.
Unless they crash pulling out, drunk drivers manage to go long distances without crashing into anything. They often manage not to crash into anything at all.
"Protect" suggests that it's "guaranteed to work". Even with non-distracted/drunk drivers, no illumination scheme will be perfect.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-02-19 at 09:00 AM.
#37
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Always flashing on the rear light - there's no need to over-complicate it.
- Flashing red light says "bicycle".
- Flashing LED lasts longer than steady.
- I don't care if the driver behind me can tell how fast I'm going.
- I don't care if he can accurately judge the distance from two blocks away.
- I want the driver to realize "bicycle ahead", anticipate, adjust his driving. The more time he has to do that, the better.
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#38
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Peripheral vision is more sensitive to motion and flickering than central vision. This is a fairly well documented physiological characteristic of human eyesight. And it can be used to a cyclist's advantage in being seen.
A distracted driver may be looking away, or may be concentrating on a cell phone or dashboard navigation / entertainment system. Flickering and motion may well be the one thing this driver needs to become aware of a cyclist.
My bikes both have Cygolite HotShot tail lights (Pro 150, and 100) which I run in a flicker mode that seems to be a good balance between strobe and solid-on. I also have a Planet Bike Bottle Blinky on one bike, and a Brightside Sidelight on the other, both in some form of flicker mode. My headlights are steady-on at night, but at dusk I run them in strobe over solid mode, and when I'm on a particularly nasty section of road I may even run them in flash mode during the daytime.
About half of my riding is at night. I don't have many close calls. I do occasionally have people shout at me, either just to mess with me, or occasionally to complain about the lights that caught their attention. A few times people have made it a point to complement how well the lights work to make me visible to them.
The side lights address the problem of not being noticed by cross traffic at four-way stops, or by people entering main roads from side streets or parking lots. Since employing them that sort of issue has tapered off to "never happens."
A distracted driver may be looking away, or may be concentrating on a cell phone or dashboard navigation / entertainment system. Flickering and motion may well be the one thing this driver needs to become aware of a cyclist.
My bikes both have Cygolite HotShot tail lights (Pro 150, and 100) which I run in a flicker mode that seems to be a good balance between strobe and solid-on. I also have a Planet Bike Bottle Blinky on one bike, and a Brightside Sidelight on the other, both in some form of flicker mode. My headlights are steady-on at night, but at dusk I run them in strobe over solid mode, and when I'm on a particularly nasty section of road I may even run them in flash mode during the daytime.
About half of my riding is at night. I don't have many close calls. I do occasionally have people shout at me, either just to mess with me, or occasionally to complain about the lights that caught their attention. A few times people have made it a point to complement how well the lights work to make me visible to them.
The side lights address the problem of not being noticed by cross traffic at four-way stops, or by people entering main roads from side streets or parking lots. Since employing them that sort of issue has tapered off to "never happens."
#39
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BTW, the one study on lighting that I could dig up today was commissioned by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials to look into how to reduce rear-end collisions with snow plows. Yes, motorists run into those too!.
Here's a link.
#40
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When on public streets I use both front and back lights. The rear is always flashing and the front will be set according to the traffic I'm in, although it is usually on it's flashing setting too. I try to be situationaly aware, and when in doubt I will give any vehicle the right of way.
Although I hope it never comes to it, if I'm in an accident and push comes to shove, I want to be able to show in a court of law or to my insurance company that not only was I obeying the law, but I was also taking additional steps in order to make myself visible and alert others of my presence.
Although I hope it never comes to it, if I'm in an accident and push comes to shove, I want to be able to show in a court of law or to my insurance company that not only was I obeying the law, but I was also taking additional steps in order to make myself visible and alert others of my presence.
#41
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BTW, the one study on lighting that I could dig up today was commissioned by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials to look into how to reduce rear-end collisions with snow plows. Yes, motorists run into those too!.
Here's a link.
Here's a link.
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The fact that flashing lights on common on slow moving vehicles supports that.
Nothing is perfect. Don't we all know that?
Stay safe, mate.
#43
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in addition to the on the bike stuff...
Carhartt High viz A parka in over half the year , sweat shirt in the dry season..
reflective bands are bonded into the fabric not sewn on..
reflective bands are bonded into the fabric not sewn on..
#44
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The issue is what is better.
That they still use flashing lights as the standard even though, sometimes, they don't work suggests that flashing lights are better.
(And who knows if it's "frequent".)
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-02-19 at 12:17 PM.
#45
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This thread makes for a good awareness thread. I just picked up some reflective bands for my ankles for when I commute. I normally run a blinky on the bike and one on the helmet.
Bands are cheap and they do add another component of motion for motorists to see.
Bands are cheap and they do add another component of motion for motorists to see.
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That they still use flashing lights even though, sometimes, they don't work suggests that flashing lights are better.
Stay safe, mate. And don't overestimate the abilities of motorists.
#47
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Nope, the issue is keeping yourself safe. To do that you need to consider all of the factors that affect motorist awareness and develop a strategy to anticipate and minimize hazards. As I've recommended previously in this post, a combination of lighting and other visibility aids is most prudent.
Talking about flashing versus solid (just that), the fact that, sometimes, flashing doesn't work doesn't mean it isn't better than solid.
You definitely are not understanding a very-basic thing.
That brake lights are the standard (even if they aren't perfect) strongly suggests that people are better off with them than without (which is what I said about flashing lights on slow-moving vehicles).
And since more cars with their brake lights lit up are rear-ended, that suggests that no having no brake lights is better, right!
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-02-19 at 01:00 PM.
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#48
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Not arguing, mate, just responding to your rather subjective comments to my original post. I recommend you go back, read, and consider all that has been presented, and then after some thought, do whatever you think is best for you. As you say, nothing's perfect.
Stay safe, friend.
Stay safe, friend.
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On my own bikes, I've got:
Rear: flashing red, > 50Lm
Rear: flashing red, > 50Lm, on a different flash pattern
Front: steady white, > 150Lm
Front: flashing white, > 50Lm
Body: full-size reflective vest (visible front/rear/sides)
Bike: some reflective wrap "tape" on the stays and fork
Bike: 'standard' single reflector on front spokes, and one on rear spokes.
About as much visibility as I can achieve, at the given output.
The reflective wrap tape is probably overkill, but I've found it makes a difference from a variety of angles, when approaching the bike at night. The car's headlights quite clearly light up the bike's stays/fork.
Haven't had but one car some anywhere near close to me, from behind, in the 24mos I have been riding this "lit up."
Can't say I know what "research" says on the matter. But in my own moderate testing of the bike's visibility while at night, it's hard to miss. No guarantees, but I feel much better with that much visibility. It'll take someone completely disinterested in any impediments on the road to miss the obvious signs there's a bike+rider there.
Rear: flashing red, > 50Lm
Rear: flashing red, > 50Lm, on a different flash pattern
Front: steady white, > 150Lm
Front: flashing white, > 50Lm
Body: full-size reflective vest (visible front/rear/sides)
Bike: some reflective wrap "tape" on the stays and fork
Bike: 'standard' single reflector on front spokes, and one on rear spokes.
About as much visibility as I can achieve, at the given output.
The reflective wrap tape is probably overkill, but I've found it makes a difference from a variety of angles, when approaching the bike at night. The car's headlights quite clearly light up the bike's stays/fork.
Haven't had but one car some anywhere near close to me, from behind, in the 24mos I have been riding this "lit up."
Can't say I know what "research" says on the matter. But in my own moderate testing of the bike's visibility while at night, it's hard to miss. No guarantees, but I feel much better with that much visibility. It'll take someone completely disinterested in any impediments on the road to miss the obvious signs there's a bike+rider there.