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Hot weather clothing -- Cotton? Really?

Old 11-25-18, 10:19 PM
  #1  
gauvins
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Hot weather clothing -- Cotton? Really?

[we've had record cold this week, so this may be a good time to discuss heath ]

In a recent thread on riding across Death Valley during the summer, there were a couple of comments suggesting cotton as the fabric of choice.

Interesting. Cotton is controversial (e.g. cotton kills -- the argument being that when you stop sweating or if the temperature drops, your soaked garments may induce hypothermia). Supporters of cotton will frequently refer to traditional fabrics in Africa (cotton or wool, depending on the region) or to the fact that synthetics can develop a funky smell.

I personally no longer wear cotton when "active" (plus full-finger gloves and hear gear). I was inclined to wear long-sleeve merino (even in very hot and sunny temperatures) and then switched to almost exclusively synthetics (comparable performance, more durable, less expensive).

This being said, I'd be interested in reading more on this.

We want to wear something that will protect us from the sun, which may or may not be an issue depending on latitude and season, and keep the body at a "decent" temperature. I am not convinced that trying to reduce fluid loss is a good thing (if you aren't cooling off, you'll sweat more), but there could be an argument against high performance synthetics that wick sweat away from your skin, therefore reducing(?) the cooling factor.

I suppose that there are other consideration as well, such as the availability of additional layers/change of clothes (clothing choice will not be the same if you are running vs bike touring vs thru-hiking).

I also read that synthetics differ quite a lot. Some will wick more than others, some will protect better against UVs.

There is probably a special case to be made for touring (long hours -> sun protection; apparent wind -> evaporation cools more than if we were hiking/running/sipping on a beer)...
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Old 11-25-18, 11:10 PM
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Cotton being a poor outdoor fabric is a myth mostly created by competing fabric industries and perpetuated by inexperienced outdoor enthusiasts looking to justify their choices and show off knowledge they don't really have. People will smugly say "cotton kills" while heading off into the wilderness without a map or even knowledge of how to read one, a source of fire or appropriate amount of water.

Similar thing with wool suddenly becoming itchy and uncomfortable about the time competing industries were trying to sell men and women suits and dresses made of synthetics and blends.

Dissatisfied with how the synthetic jerseys were handling the first chilly weather of the season I switched to wearing loose cotton t-shirts a couple years ago. Compared to synthetics, they're warmer in cold and very cold weather and I haven't had any issues related to holding moisture. They seem to dry by the fire about as well as synthetics but have a warm feel on the skin when put on at ambient temperatures while most synthetics feel cool and unpleasant.

In very hot weather they also work well unless the humidity is very high. Then they hold moisture and are hard to dry, tend to sag on the body although still allow flapping on the surface of the skin for cooling. During hot but dry weather I've had a cotton shirt saturated with sweat such that I looked like I just got out of a pool, dry in about 3 hours of riding after the sun went down. I actually got to camp with a small damp spot on my lower back but otherwise totally dry. I felt pretty comfortable the whole time. Synthetics when overloaded with moisture in high humidity tend to stick to my skin and tend to feel oppressive and hotter than they should. Synthetics also smell awful if they go through a sweat/dry cycle while riding, there is no day 2 wear with synthetics I've experienced. Conversely wearing a cotton t-short two days in a row is possible and even a quick rinse with just water can keep it smelling neutral enough.

I like cotton, if I could afford wool and there were vendors producing quality long lasting clothing I would wear that but in the meantime I wear cotton shirts, underpants and socks - haven't had any issues and have been as comfortable if not more comfortable in certain conditions than where I was wearing synthetics.

Sorry I don't have much quantifiable to offer you. There are quite a few articles pro-cotton online but I haven't really seen anything other than mostly anecdotal - kinda like this post
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Old 11-26-18, 04:08 AM
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I'll draw on my experience living near one of the places in North America with the widest summer to winter temperature range ... Winnipeg.

We sweat in summer and in winter, and cotton collects and retains sweat.

In winter, that's not great. I've worn cotton as a baselayer for both cycling and cross-country skiing, and it gets soaked and really uncomfortable.

But after years of experience, I have nailed down a winter cycling combo I like.


However, in summer, it can be just what we want. In fact, I (and people I've ridden long distances with), would even run our light, white cotton T-shirts under taps when we found them to make them wet if our own sweat wasn't doing it.
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Old 11-26-18, 04:51 AM
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It's very personal. I do not sweat very much, and in many conditions cotton works great for me. I almost always wear cotton on day trips, even skiing. On longer day trips I also carry synthetics, in case I do get soaked and the temp drops.

But generally not on bike touring trips. Then, the only cotton in my pack is one bandanna. Cotton takes longer to dry.
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Old 11-26-18, 05:46 AM
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As mentioned, merino wool is what I would wear all the time cycling if it were more robust and less expensive to replace. But since it’s not, I tend to wear cotton on top. I’ve had the exact same experience mentioned above. Synthetics are less comfortable, not as warm in the cool weather and no cooler in hot weather(occasionally feel warmer), and frickin stink. I’m not even a smelly person and I can’t get away with wearing a synthetic shirt more than once. That doesn’t work for me for bike touring. I use a merino t-shirt and cotton overshirts. I can go a week one a t-shirt and two overshirts in a decent temp range without smelling. Light colored linen is fantastic for very hot, sunny riding. I’d take it over cotton or synthetic in that specific environment. A loose fitting white linen button-up is probably my preferred shirt then. It’s nice to be able to asjust the amount you have it buttoned and roll the sleeves up or leave down depending on the intensity of the sun.

I do use almost exclusively zip-off synthetic pant/shorts when touring. I don’t find the downfalls of synthetic affect me nearly as much on my lower half, and they do dry faster and pack a little smaller.

Last edited by 3speed; 11-26-18 at 05:50 AM.
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Old 11-26-18, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka

But after years of experience, I have nailed down a winter cycling combo I like.
It only took me 50 years.
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Old 11-26-18, 06:52 AM
  #7  
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Bottom Line Up Front: Try different things and wear what works for you and your budget.


Can't find it now, but I read somewhere about wicking synthetic fabrics contributing to higher-than-expected levels of dehydration among elite ultra distance runners in hot and dry conditions. Supposedly, the accelerated evaporation of sweat increased water loss, resulting in dehydration, poorer performance or failure to finish.


Plenty of personal experience (military) wearing mostly cotton clothing in high exertion, hot environments, both humid and dry. When it's humid you can't take off enough clothes, especially if you sweat a lot. When it's dry and hot, keeping most of your skin covered with the lightest possible fabrics seemed to assist in enabling prolonged physical exertion. (Note: adding body armor, helmets, heavy loads--in loose sand-- makes cycling up steep grades seem like a walk in the park).


As for cycle touring in hot weather, I wear a lightweight synthetic long sleeve jersey mostly for UV protection. I'm not a race horse, carry a few extra pounds of fat, try to keep myself sufficiently hydrated. In warm/hot weather I sometimes think I'm going to melt into a puddle riding uphill and very much look forward to the evaporative cooling breeze on the downhills. For short rides I'll wear a cotton shirt but I find cotton impractical for tours since I like to rinse out my tops after a long day and the last thing I want to do is start out a day of cycling with a damp shirt.


I spent a couple of years at a military test center where many extreme weather clothing tests are performed. There I learned that personal physiology and individual perceptions of comfort vary widely and it's hard to pin down the "best" solution that works well for everyone. For the military, it's finding solutions that work "good enough" for most people in the typical demographic group, that are durable and affordable to purchase. As individual cyclists, you are only constrained by your budget, what's available to buy or make and perhaps your fashion sensibilities.
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Old 11-26-18, 07:01 AM
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In hot weather, like a loose-fitting, breezy 100% cotton (or thereabouts), long-sleeve dress shirt. A good dress shirt is made from tightly-woven fabric, and naturally provides a high SPF. For cold weather, I'll layer up with synthetics and wool. My favorite base layers are made by IceBreaker, but they are danged expensive. Still, its so nice to be warm when your hands are holding a fishing rod and you are standing in 35F water.
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Old 11-26-18, 08:24 AM
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Cotton can indeed suck on foot in cold, wet conditions, certainly doesn't even begin to hold a candle to wool. Bicycling on the road is different, at least down here where "extreme cold" is 20F. Frequently I'll throw on a heavy long-sleeved cotton shirt under my rain jacket (which doubles as a windbreaker) simply because I have them on hand. Accumulated perspiration isn't an issue because when that begins to happen I'll just unzip the jacket.

All year round I wear a single layer of LOOSE fitting nylon, long sleeves, long pants. Typically oversized Magellan fishing shirts and top quality pants from REI. UPF50 even when wet, cool and comfortable in the heat. The part above about synthetics retaining odor puzzles me, the stuff I wear dries quick and rinses out easily at the end of a long day. Wears like iron too. I would guess the secret is the "loose" part, I few things look more uncomfortable (and dorky) to me than the standard skin-tight "cycling" clothes. Brook's saddles too for me make crotch pads redundant.
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Old 11-26-18, 08:48 AM
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Some poly blend wicking fabrics are odor resistant and can be worn for two or more days between washings.

The best cycling brand top was Pearl Izumi's Transfer base layer in Minerale fabric, using carbon (and possibly silver) to control bacteria and consequent odor. I've gone as long as a week between washings and it still had a neutral odor. It's comfortable year round, from freezing to humid summer. It's quick and easy to hand wash and air dry.

Nothing else I've used comes close to that performance, including Merino wool.

It was made between 2011-2015 or thereabouts. It's discontinued and Pearl Izumi confirmed to me by email there are no plans to bring it back. Some unsold new/old stock is still available. Be sure it's the Minerale fabric. The recent PI base layer material is nothing special.

The only other source for comparable fabric is base layers marketed to serious hikers and campers, using carbon and silver in the yarn. Expensive but worth it.

The best inexpensive wicking fabric poly base layer I've found is Champion Vapor t-shirts. These are distinguished from their regular (and also good) poly tee shirts by a reinforcing hem sewn into the back of the collar labeled "Vapor". It appears to be a laminated fabric, smooth feeling exterior layer, slightly fleecy interior, but no thicker than any tee-shirt or summer jersey. Excellent value at only $10-15. It's usually good for a couple of days hard, sweaty use before it needs washing.

Good poly fabrics converted me from high maintenance Merino wool. Poly is easier to wash, dries quickly, no worries about critters gnawing holes, and it's less bulky for ultralight travel.

Cotton is for casual wear and pub crawls.

Last edited by canklecat; 11-26-18 at 08:49 AM. Reason: Ficks tiepohs
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Old 11-26-18, 09:25 AM
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Cotton went out with outdoor washboard laundering. So many better technical fabrics to choose from these days. Cotton still make the best towels, robes, etc.
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Old 11-26-18, 10:09 AM
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You touched on many topics, I will only address the cotton recommendation in a place like death valley.

I doubt that your sweat in that kind of dry heat will accumulate in the fabric, the dew point will be extremely low. Thus on the suggestion that cotton kills because the soaked garments will induce hypothermia, I think would not apply here.

I almost never carry cotton clothing when I do outdoor activities, but last spring when I was in the dry heat of West Texas, I really wished I had brought a long sleeve cotton shirt.
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Old 11-26-18, 10:29 AM
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The funny thing on cotton kills...it only kills if you don't know how to use it correctly. I guess you could say it is like that with anything.

Until someone gave me some arm warmers a couple of years ago I use to wear a long sleeve cotton tshirt for winter biking and rode all winter with it her in New Hampshire. I didn't think a thing about it. I would be out riding with nothing more than a long sleeve cotton tshirt and an uninsulated wind jacket clear down at +20F. Sometimes, depending on wind speed I would even be out dressed like that up top clear down to +10F. I wouldn't think a thing about it. I would ride 100 mile days dressed like that. I had no trouble with it at all. I did have a system that I used and lived by quite routinely.

I would start out a ride and, depending on temperature, I would get 5-20 minutes into the ride. At some point, again temperature related, I would start to notice claminess between my shoulder blades. I would reach up and upzip the zipper on the hacket and ride that way the rest of the day. The jacket was not a tight fitting jacket, it a loose flap jacket...other riders I would ride with in the fall would talk about riding behind the wind sail. As long as I didn't take any kind of long break, lunch break or stop to hop online for a while I keep the zipper unzipped the rest of the day and let the wind keep the area between the shoulder blades dry. I would get home in the evening and everything I had on would be completely dry. I stayed comfortable all day long riding and most importantly I stayed dry. I didn't need to wick sweat away because I didn't sweat. I learned to use my equipment properly.

A couple of years ago a fellow cyclist(one of the co-founders of Cannondale bikes), that I actually know from anything but cycling, gave me some arm warmers that he didn't need. I had never tried them out before so in the late spring, when he gave them to me, we still had a couple of cool mornings so I decided to try them. I was amazed how well they worked. I decided come the following('16-'17) winter I would give them a shot and see how well I could go with just a short sleeve cycling jersey and arm warmers. I come to find out they actually did work bettert han the cotton tshirt. I almost never have to unzip anymore to stay dry. Unless there is high humidity and 40 degrees I can ride all day and stay zipped up. I stil wear the same setup all the way down to the same bottom end(10-20F depending on wind speed) like I did with the cotton tshirt. The biggest difference now is I don't have to unzip at any point during the ride.

Remember the secret to winter biking is simple. Sweat is not called evaporative warming...it is called evaporative cooling. It is not designed to keep you warm, it is designed to cool you down because you already too warm.

As for summer usage I prefer the cycling jerseys simply because they dry so much quicker than cotton.
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Old 11-26-18, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
[we've had record cold this week, so this may be a good time to discuss heath ]

... snip snip ...


I am not convinced that trying to reduce fluid loss is a good thing (if you aren't cooling off, you'll sweat more), but there could be an argument against high performance synthetics that wick sweat away from your skin, therefore reducing(?) the cooling factor.


... snip snip ...

.

Plenty of good responses already, especially the basic recognition that what works for one may not work for another. I'll just address 2 things, one of them is in the OP's quote above. ... if you aren't cooling off, you'll sweat more


No that is not true. Scientifically if you establish certain humidity level on your skin then your body does NOT sweat more. Body slows down or stops sweating. This has been especially proven by studying the effect of wearing vapor barrier clothing in extremely cold environments.


The second thing is to talk about cotton in cold environment ... i.e. cotton kills. ... yes wearing cotton sweat pants and a cotton t-shirt and a cotton hoodie in the winter mountains will not keep you warm, will sag your heat and contribute to hypothermia (kills you) condition.


However, there are cotton garments worn traditionally and even in some modern clothing (Fjallraven) that are working very well in polar environments if used properly. Cotton anoraks worn by native Inuit or traditional fur trapper hunters in the barren lands of Canada are one example.


Yes there are some modern fabrics that will strategically work similarly while weighing less but overall the use of cotton in polar regions is indisputable.


Some helpful links here;

https://www.warmlite.com/vapor-barrier/

https://lureofthenorth.com/traditional-winter-camping/
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Old 11-26-18, 11:06 AM
  #15  
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back in the day

In the 50's to have cooler drinking water in the desert you put it in a bag
that was not quite waterproof, some seeped out, as that evaporates it cools the rest...

Your sweat absorbed by cotton evaporates, having the same benefit..

in the old post civil war west , a cotton long sleeve dress shirt
was what the cowboy wore..



....
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Old 11-26-18, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PedalingWalrus
The second thing is to talk about cotton in cold environment ... i.e. cotton kills. ... yes wearing cotton sweat pants and a cotton t-shirt and a cotton hoodie in the winter mountains will not keep you warm, will sag your heat and contribute to hypothermia (kills you) condition.
I must have died several times by now, RIP me

When I camped I wore jeans with cotton thermal underwear, cotton shirt and variety of tops mostly cotton, some nylon shells. Winters in the Southeast do not get extremely cold but I was comfortable down to around 25 degrees with occasional snow. Sometimes with fire and sometimes without. The vast majority of people who died due to exposure would have died no matter what fabric they were wearing. Wearing wool or poly isn't going to be a magic shield if you fall into a river and it's below freezing.

Cotton only becomes an issue when it's wet and there's no outside source of warmth. Cotton is also an insulator, I'm not sure what "sag your heat means" but if I assume you're trying to say cotton will pull heat from your body that's incorrect as well. Cotton is bad in very specific instances, it's fine and very good in many many more.

As noted above, the issues related to wearing cotton while touring are much less severe than hiking or other outdoor recreation.
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Old 11-26-18, 02:10 PM
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agree with all of the points you're making.

Originally Posted by Spoonrobot
I must have died several times by now, RIP me

When I camped I wore jeans with cotton thermal underwear, cotton shirt and variety of tops mostly cotton, some nylon shells. Winters in the Southeast do not get extremely cold but I was comfortable down to around 25 degrees with occasional snow. Sometimes with fire and sometimes without. The vast majority of people who died due to exposure would have died no matter what fabric they were wearing. Wearing wool or poly isn't going to be a magic shield if you fall into a river and it's below freezing.

Cotton only becomes an issue when it's wet and there's no outside source of warmth. Cotton is also an insulator, I'm not sure what "sag your heat means" but if I assume you're trying to say cotton will pull heat from your body that's incorrect as well. Cotton is bad in very specific instances, it's fine and very good in many many more.

As noted above, the issues related to wearing cotton while touring are much less severe than hiking or other outdoor recreation.
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Old 11-26-18, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
In the 50's to have cooler drinking water in the desert you put it in a bag
that was not quite waterproof, some seeped out, as that evaporates it cools the rest...

Your sweat absorbed by cotton evaporates, having the same benefit..
At 10x the rate. Making you wet all day...and night.

in the old post civil war west , a cotton long sleeve dress shirt
was what the cowboy wore..



....
Only because they didn't know any better, and that was all they had.
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Old 11-27-18, 01:06 AM
  #19  
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I use a long sleeved dress shirt to keep cool and keep the sun off me during very hot days. It is loose fitting and the pale colour helps keep the heat off. Not an issue if it gets colder as it will not happen if I am wearing it to keep cool on the bike. If it gets cold at the end of the day, I will have changed clothing by then. My merino and polypro are too hot to wear on a hot day.
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Old 11-27-18, 01:40 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Steve0000
My merino and polypro are too hot to wear on a hot day.
Definitely ... much, much too hot.

I came to Australia in the winter armed with a merino jersey and a regular jersey. I figured that should cover it for some time, and it was. Then one day in spring, I headed out for a ride in the merino. It hit about 28C and I was extremely uncomfortable. That weekend we bought a couple more regular jerseys for me.
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Old 11-27-18, 04:23 PM
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As many have said before, there is dry heat (deserts) and humid heat (tropics).

When I was still working at a big outdoor store we would generally recommend clothing made of natural fibers for hot, humid weather like the tropics.

Tropics:
  • Merino was good. It still feels comfortable when wet so even a soaking wet shirt does not feel icky
  • Silk is comfy if you like the material
  • Wood pulp fibers such as viscose, rayon and modal feel like cotton but dry much faster
  • My favorite for the tropics however was bamboo fiber shirts. For some reason it helps cool you down.

Most synthetic materials get overwhelmed quickly in those conditions. A wet polyester shirt feels like a gross, sticky thing when it is soaked in sweat.
But yes, cotton works great in the tropics because for the same reason why it sucks as an outdoor material; it does not insulate when wet. Which helps you cool down.

Deserts:
  • Merino will heat up quickly but is fine in thinner versions
  • Polyester works great because it is very hydrophobic which means it wicks away moisture very quickly. Also decent SPF
  • Nylon can work okay but absorbs more moisture than polyester. A special fabric weave can help because it is much harder wearing than poly
  • Cotton offers little SPF when untreated but works alright
In deserts loose fitting clothing with long sleeves helps regulate temperatures and protects you from the sun.
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Old 11-27-18, 06:36 PM
  #22  
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I still prefer cotton for the tropics and heat in general, but the newer synthetics are pretty good. Feel horrible on the skin, though.
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Old 11-27-18, 08:11 PM
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I really am quite ignorant of various fabrics, but my limited experience with cotton shirts that were labeled as Egyptian Cotton seemed to work better in hot weather and they seemed to dry faster when wet and hung out to dry. I do not know if it was my imagination or not, but maybe the different types of cotton matter? For travel clothing, I generally have avoided all kinds of cotton but I have a couple of travel shirts that are part Egyptian Cotton and part polyester, they work pretty well for travel.
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Old 11-27-18, 08:26 PM
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Didn't the arabs in the desert wear loos fitting cotton robes to keep cool and stay shaded from the sun? Seems like that worked okay for them.
Maybe not as good in humid climes. What do they wear now, have they gone to some high tech synthetic fabric?
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Old 11-27-18, 09:31 PM
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Silk is good.

In the Guatemala jungle a few aprils back, I had a long sleve merino 150, and a silk shirt. I reached for the black silk shirt every morning. April is the hottest month in Guatemala, and the jungle is humid.

Polyester smells bad too bad if do not wash it each day. Silk can go for a month without a washing and smell ok. Cotton socks help keep the bugs off your feet in a hot bug infested jungle.


Cotton socks can kill you, even above 60f. I have seen it happen.


Colombia a couple of years back. I bought some cotton socks, it rained buckets. My feet were soaked. It was 72* and thick cloud cover, I thought hypothermia would not bother me at 72f. Next thing you know, I am sitting on the steps at Parque Berrio shivering. And I do men shivering.

Well a girl walked up and put a coat on me. A nice winter coat. Expensive looking winter coat shinny and new. It took me 2 days to find her again. Ariana. Not a single girl in all of California is as pretty Ariana.


June on the Wilderness coast, Olympic National Park. 50, 60, 70 if you are lucky. I got some shoes that dry fast and nylon dress socks, they dry fast. Leather or even gortex boots dry so slow over a few days when they soak through. Walking up and across creeks with fast dryng shoes and fast drying nylon socks works fine, once you get used to it.

I might soak a cotton long sleve shirt in permathin and visit the amazon jungle. I do not take a slow drying cotton shirt on my bicycle tour, or cotton anything on a bicycle tour.
Cotton is comfortable, and needs to be washed each day. Good at home, bad on the road.

Try silk if you can find some, silk is good.

Last edited by chrisx; 11-27-18 at 09:41 PM.
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