Maelochs

I love a good five-speed---the transmission (and clutch) in my 2004 Honda are excellent. Light, quick accurate shifts, easy clutch modulation. I know that a proper modern double-clutch/ paddle-shift automatic makes faster shifts than any human could, and maybe when I buy another car (perforce, not by choice) will learn to work paddle shifters as well as the stick and pedal in my Honda.

I do not pretend to myself or try to convince others that a stick and pedal are better in any functional way ... something some here could stand to understand. I enjoy working a stick and pedals. Every shift is a chance to coordinate as perfectly as possible with the engine and the road. With my Honda rated at 130 bhp from the factory---surely less now---absolute "performance" is not really an issue. But to me it is like playing a musical instrument---try the best with every measure, never stop playing however well you just did.

I never liked friction shifters on the road. I hated having to shift my center of gravity for every shift, I hated having to take my hands off the bars for no other reason. Yes, I could shift both levers with one hand (though I didn't ever try to do both simultaneously) but so what ... STIs still shift better in every respect ... and even for double shifts.

I don't care if people prefer paddle-shift, slushbox, or stick .... I don't care if you like gripshift or STI or friction, downtube or stem or bars-ends. When people dishonestly try to "procve" that their preferences are "better," I might call them out, because that is either ignorant or dishonest.

The best bit was 3-alarmer trying to "prove" that "preference" didn't mean "better." he even looked up a definition.

Maybe he should have been a bit smarter ... considering that the point he was addressing was me saying preference didn't involve a concept of 'better."

PeteHski

I would liken it more to a classic H-pattern clutched shift vs electronic sequential paddle shift. I think both are best enjoyed in manual mode, but the latter is far superior in terms of performance and ergonomics. The former is really just nostalgic fun at this point. The same goes for DT friction shifters.

For example my 1982 Porsche 911 has the 915 manual box with a cable actuated clutch. It has a long, slow, imprecise lever throw and heavy, vague clutch. It’s kind of fun to use in small doses, but requires a lot of concentration and “skill” to master. A modern PDK sequential is way faster and much easier to use. The ergonomics are far superior. I get it that some people still prefer the more traditional solution, but I switch off if they try to argue that it is functionally better in some way.

Garthr

Yes, endless ways to do the same thing, to express yourself through this play called "Life" !

rsbob 

If you want to talk vague, my 914, with a dog-leg first gear (reverse is where your 81’s first gear lives) was like stirring a bowl of mush. There was zero positive feel and it was all done pretty much by feel. I cured it by installing a Seine Systems shifter, which has direct positive feel and engagement. I installed the same on my 73 and 82 911s, now sold, but what a tremendous difference it made. If you haven’t installed the same or a Wevo, I would highly recommend it - utterly transformative - unless you prefer the DT experience.

PeteHski

That is a great idea. But I don't drive it enough to justify the cost. I do wish I had done that with my 73S. The shift quality was terrible. All those classic 911s before the G50 box were appalling.

Eric F 

There is the big difference in why STI makes way more sense for me, and less so for you. On my road bike, I probably spend 90% (or more) of my time on the hoods. That said, I don't do a simultaneous shift often enough to even consider needing both hands on the hoods as an inconvenience. Having shifting and braking available to me instantly is much more important for the way I ride. There are times when I need to shift, but definitely want both hands on the bars. I appreciate that your way works for you.

tomato coupe

The last time I did any significant amount of simultaneous shifting was when I was riding a 3x6 half-step-plus-granny setup ... a long time ago.

Eric F 

It's definitely not a significant occurrence in most of my riding, but my frequent Sunday group road ride has one spot on the route where it transitions from downhill to uphill in a way that a simultaneous shift makes sense in order to set up what I need for the next section.

Maelochs

I converted that bike to 3x7 with normal rings and brifters .... half-step and six cogs, I was generally not riding in a comfortable gear because to be in an efficient ratio all the time I needed to shift one or both ends almost repeatedly. it is sort of like having a crank-starter .... great when that was cutting edge and needed, but as soon as something better was developed ...... Double shifts work with Any shift mechanism.

Best part of indexed gears (proper indexed front derailleur particularly) is that I can double-shift effortlessly and flawlessly without needing to think about it.

Sorry, retrogrouches .... but bikes today are just a whole lot better to actually Ride than they were "back in the day." Aesthetics are personal, but utilization .....

Whatever. Some people really get a kick out of shooting muzzle-loading black-power weapons. I figure if I am going that far, give me a bow, or a spear and an atlatl ... or I can just throw rocks all day for free.

genejockey 

Archery has its own hardcore C&V segment, Traditional Archery, for those who prefer not wheels on their bows. But even that's not enough for some, who practice Primitive Archery, which eschews fiberglass-backed bows in favor of selfbows, or at most, laminated wood bows, or sinew-backed wood bows.

smd4

Man, I need to take your namesake antacid after reading your posts!

I assure you, running a steam locomotive is way more fun than running a modern efficient diesel.

Sierra_rider

My only foray into DT shifter ownership was my first road bike, a circa 1990ish Specialized Sirrus(before those became a hybrid model.) It was a 3x7. The friction shifting wasn't so bad, but I eventually converted that to Ultegra 6600 and have never had the inclination to mess with DT shifters again. I also had an old rigid KHS mtb that had friction shifters, I built it as a kid from junk bin parts from the LBS.

To me, the retro vs modern bike is like classic car vs modern car. I appreciate old things and own a 50 year old pickup truck...however, I wouldn't want to drive it daily or have to take it on long trips. My modern bikes just work better for my needs, just the gearing alone is enough for me...I live in the mountains and average 110'/mile elevation ratio on my rides, a modern compact 2x11 gives me a generous gear spread without the superfluous amount of shifting required to keep a good chain line on a triple. If I didn't live out in BFE, I'd probably get a vintage bike just for running errands around town. As it stands right now, a trip into town is a 40 mile round trip.

My one area of "retrogrouchiness" actually pertains to cars/trucks, I prefer a manual transmission over the automatic. I don't really have a good argument on how they are better than autos, it's just a preference. I grew up driving manuals and just prefer the direct control of gear choice. Early on, I was driving commercial vehicles with non-syncro'd 15 speed transmissions or 2 speed rear ends...in comparison, I'm not even thinking about the shifts in my modern car/light trucks.

delbiker1 

Giving kudos to L26, the thread starter. He played, he got what he got, then apparently was wise enough to drop out.

3alarmer 

Atlas Shrugged

Your response underscores the fundamental distinctions between your perspective and that of other vintage friction advocates. For the vast majority of modern cyclists, the bicycle serves as a tool to enhance their enjoyment of the sport, covering greater distances and providing comfort. Conversely, some individuals perceive their bicycles as an artistic and emotional expression, valuing it as a status symbol, regardless of performance, comfort, or practicality.

Personal attacks really cheapen your response and discount any point you may be trying to make.

gorillimo

I'm ok with FS. If trigger shifters are working well, I don't have a problem with using them. If they fail, I'll change mine to friction thumbies! Simple, can use any combo of gears and shifters. My current setup {until it needs changing!}....

3alarmer 

What Maelochs wrote ^^^

My response :

Maelochs most recent troll, complaining about dishonesty (again...it's a regular theme with him.)

.
.

So in all honesty, I don't know what to make of someone who uses the "some people" game, to cover his tracks in delivering indirect personal attacks. And who then complains about dishonesty, while continuing to claim the moral high ground, as what seems pretty obviously an attack on some vague user group, all the while claiming not to "care" what anyone "uses".

Obviously, it's logically and factually bankrupt, within the context of this thread. But I get he has a problem with me, whatever I write, and feels a need to attack in this manner...I guess because his standards for "honesty" include a preference for bull ****. Reporting it does no good. Rational argument certainly does no good. All I can do is ignore you , Bubba. I wish you luck in your continuing search for an honest man. Maybe they'll let you change your username to Diogenes ?

If you can find something in here that I wrote claiming any system of shifting is "better", now's your chance to quote it. I have written that all of them are better than stopping and shifting your chain by hand. And I did, indeed, state that I like DT shifters for certain half step gearing uses, because I can accomplish double shifts with one motion. And I don't ride on the hoods, mostly. Here's your dishonest response to that.
.
.


Nice examples of Straw Man fallacy, argument that your own preferences are, indeed, better, and the presumption that easier for you = better, because retrogrouches. I'm watching self parody in slow motion, while you vent your various splenic screeds in General Cycling, all the while complaining that anyone you find yourself in disagreement with is "dishonest". Even if you have to manufacture the reasons you disagree.

But here's a tip going forward. The next time you either state, or even imply, I'm "dishonest", I'm going to start reporting it. It probably won't happen often, because I don't spend much time in this forum. But if you can't quote something that supports your manufactured narrative here, with regard to me and what I've written, the horse you rode in on is in for a good time. Here's what I really wrote, quoted for you. Good luck in demonstrating your "honesty."

.
.


Looking forward to meeting your horse. Cordially yours, etc, etc.

3alarmer 

...I don't get it ? A Gen 7 Madone at 10 thousand bucks is not a status symbol ? Is that what you're saying ? What if I'm enjoying the sport now ? This could be another teaching moment for you. Am I missing the special, secret meaning of "the vast majority of modern cyclists" ? Do you know these people ? Is it a Facebook group, or something ?

3alarmer 

.
...some moderator should lock this thread, if for no other reason than concern for the well being of Maelochs horse.

smd4

Personal attack? What are you talking about?

boozergut

snip snap snout, this tales told out.........

tomato coupe

Guy complains about another poster beating a dead horse, while quoting his own previous posts. Funny.

79pmooney

And my wise-*** comment. Index vs Friction Shifters. Like solid state vs tube amplifiers. Solid state is so much easier to use. (And so rugged. With a good cabinet, indestructible. I backed my car into a Peavy and it didn't care.) I love tube amps.

Really good friction shifting is a joy to ride. Yes, it takes a level of skill. Yes, it requires removing one's hand from the bars (for DT). Yes, it is completely obsolete and would be a several shot handicap in a race.

I am currently dismantling a Pro Miyata with lots of rust and putting most of those parts on another Pro M. Snazzing up parts as I go along. SunTour Symmetric shifters, Superbe FD (if it can handle triple, near new Cyclone GT rear. (Tried to put the GT cage on the Superbe but can't quite.) For a start, this will be the 52-42-30 X 13-26 Sedis/SRAM I've been using.

Only drawback to the wonderful shifting of those derailleurs and the Symmetric: on a pure race bike of early '80s clearances (like none at all!), that front tire is way too close to my index finger on my routine shift. A hard jam I feel in the bones every time I do it and that is nearly every ride. Not good for hands as old as mine and that are not going to relearn how to walk shift. So for last Sept's Cycle Oregon, I made an elegant wood shield that neatly zip ties below the DT. Love it! Barely notice it but those jarring jams don't happen!

That bike is totally old school. Skinny tires, dinosaur shifting, heavy enough to anchor an entire modern peloton. That CO had a day of riding the Willamette Valley. Miles of farm fields. North or west. Always along property boundaries. And all upwind. Every turn, shift a gear or two and settle in for the next few miles. But the bike simply disappeared. It was some of the most magic riding I have ever done. Like when all is right with that tube amp, the song and the other musicians.

3alarmer 

...and once again, you manage in your own clever way to miss the "horse you rode in on" reference. You have a certain genius for that. You drew a "like" from Koyote , though. I thought the whole deal with coyotes was supposed to be they are clever ? Otherwise, it's just another road kill scavenger.

3alarmer 

.
...if you're one of the people arguing for new technology as the ultimate answer to speed, distance, and power, why not just go all the way, with an auto transmission e-bike ? Stop being a carbon fiber, Di2 retrogrouch, and embrace the future. I can easily see you on one of these babies, Koyote . Continuing to defy the march of progress doesn't make sense, if you're an older rider. Plenty of precision machining in one o these hubs, Atlas Shrugged . This might be the thing that puts the pizzazz back in your life.

Put away your childish derailleur bikes from the past. Go full auto. It's guaranteed stress free.