adlai

Oh I have a number of those torque wrenches.
I do like their hex wrench sets.

adlai

One example is the "3d printed saddle".

I've watched the manufacturer video from selle Italia on the work they put into it

AliExpress sells a number of knockoff "3d printed" saddles for as much as $70. The knockoffs don't have the r&d put into them and reportedly don't have the same variable compression and support in the right spots.

But on this sort of saddle to begin with the margin for comfort is really low because lots of high end bike gear is about shaving as much as is possible to reduce weight to the tenth gram or whatever.

Point is that lots of high end stuff is pseudoscience to begin with and knockoffs just don't have the same marketing speak.

Koyote

I've ridden countless times in temps as low as freezing and as high as 100+ Fahrenheit and have never given a single thought to the temperature of my handlebar.

shelbyfv

You've certainly convinced me!!

SoSmellyAir

So much for heated handlebar (for those winter morning starts) like the heated steering wheel of my wife's car.

PeteHski

If we stick to the subject of carbon bars, there is no pseudoscience in the materials, layup design and manufacture of reputable products. The problem is when cheap unknown knockoffs potentially skimp on all aspects of the engineering and quality control process. Then you just end up with a BSO (bar shaped object). This applies to alloy bars too, not just carbon.

rosefarts

In my sample size of a dozen or so, I think Amazon/ebay batteries for tools and cameras are 100% as good any OEM battery I’ve ever had. I’ve never had a failure. Failure means that I need to go back to my charger and grab a different battery a few minutes earlier. It’s low consequence.

Years ago I worked construction with a rope access group. The dudes at one of the training facilities mentioned that they ran across some look-alike rope that had a core made of paper. It was likely some other wadded up fibrous material but had fractional integrity compared to the stuff we were using. That was fairly high consequence.

Bikes are somewhat in between. That’s the point I am trying to make. There is a place for knockoffs. I guess you have to figure out what that place is for you.

I’ll add a thought experiment. Let’s say you have a $4 carbon handlebar that fails on a group ride or even a race. You walk away with a couple scrapes. People in the wreck have thousands of dollars of damage. Some are in the hospital. Maybe someone has injuries that will mean they’ll never ride well again.

Now, how do you feel about the few dollars you saved on a handlebar made of cheese? How do the injured (and their lawyers) feel about you riding with them on such equipment?

SoSmellyAir

Gotcha. Regardless, Alibaba is an interesting choice of name for an e-commerce platform.

It is curious that you articulate the sole difference you perceive between Selle Italia 3D printed saddles vs. knockoffs -- i.e., the lack of variable compression and support zones -- but not your perceived difference between branded CF handlebar vs. knockoffs. Care to try to do so? Or:
1. Do you know or assume that there are no structural differences between branded CF handlebar vs. knockoffs?
2. If #1 is not true, do you know or assume that any structural differences would make no difference in the mode or frequency of failures?

Sy Reene

Well, we could ask for evidence supporting these assertions. ie. That is that there is more or less QC done in a factory producing a name brand product, than the factory producing a non-name branded product. Or the evidence that higher end components (aka having a higher price tag) have a greater likelihood of being designed and manufactured to a higher standard. Of course we all want to believe this to be be true and therefore why we shell out more money for a brand sold at the local REI than on Alibaba, but where is the support for these conclusions?

Maelochs

Sometimes one must apply common sense even if others object.

Jughed

I'm in chemical engineering/construction - just about everything purchased from China to save costs, needs to be rebuilt, rewired, re piped in the field and ends up costing 2x than if we simply purchased something made from a reputable vendor.

They all have QC stickers on them, and there is close to zero quality.

The assploded handlebars in my pictures above show clear evidence of dry CF - very little resin, and crappy internal construction. They have a QC sticker on them.

Since they are essentially no name bars not backed by a US company - why would they care if they fail? They don't give a rats ass that I ended up mangled - and I have zero recourse to even get a replacement product - let alone any reimbursement if I chose to go that path (which I wouldn't, but plenty of people would). So a reputable brand, one that is trying to maintain a name for themselves in what is a small high end community - can't simply allow products that assplode to go out the door on a regular basis.

PeteHski

Brand reputation and history is the main evidence. If I buy an S-Works carbon bar I can reasonably expect a high level of quality and safety. If I buy a random unknown, unbranded carbon bar then I can expect nothing. It is a complete lottery.

This principle applies to most products. Sometimes the consequences of poor design and quality are benign and sometimes not. Unknown carbon bars are not something I would personally take a risk on.

DaveSSS 

I can give you a couple of reputable Chinese companies that sell direct to customers online. BTLOS makes excellent carbon rims and wheels. I now have 3 sets of carbon wheels with Bitex hubs that work great. I chose 25mm internal width, hookless with no spoke access holes, so no rim tape required. Yoeleo makes bike frames and integrated handlebars that are priced well and work well. I have two Yoeleo R12 frames that I bought vin 2022. Back then, my custom painted pearl white R12 cost $1215 with seat post and integrated bar/stem, delivered.

btlos.com

​​​​https://www.google.com/search?q=yoel...obile&ie=UTF-8

Koyote

That's not really evidence...rather, it's logic.

A name brand has a reputation to protect; one online photo of a broken component might cost them millions in lost sales, and they also have deep pockets in the event of lawsuits. A no-name online seller has no reputation and is largely shielded from litigation. From which company would you rather buy a critical component?

13ollocks

GCN did a comparison of a similar pair of handlebars - one Al, the other CF, same manufacturer (can't remember the specifics - TTT or similar), and tested at the manufacturers's facility on a rig that tested fatigue (100,000s low-weight flexes) and strength (increasingly large "hits" with heavier weights). N = 2, so take it for what it's worth, but the end result was that the CF had higher fatigue resistance (Al failed after several 100,000 flexes, they eventually gave up flexing the CF bar) but the Al could take bigger hits without failing. Based on that, I would value fatigue resistance over absolute strength - if my CF bar takes a big enough hit to break it, the chances are that I have more immediate concerns than "oh dear, I broke my handlebar...."

Sy Reene

Don't forget Enve (Anta Sports)

In America, of course you want to buy from whomever a lawsuit would pay off the most.

Koyote

I don't know whether this is just a cynical observation or you missed the point -- which is that such a company actually has something to protect (assets and reputation), and thus is more likely to do its due diligence before bringing a product to market. So, you're not buying the product in the hope of suing the company, but rather you're buying it precisely because of the lower likelihood of having a problem.

PeteHski

Yeah, when I buy products I look for proven quality and usually avoid random unbranded gear unless it is something trivial. I’ve never had to sue using this basic principle.

shelbyfv

Just to complicate things a bit, remember that specific sharp impacts that would not harm alloy can damage carbon. Think of a kid knocking over a bike in a garage or a parked bike falling over onto a curb. And remember that damage to carbon does not have to be obvious. If you drop your bike, you have to decide how lucky you feel because you won't be able to determine if the bar is damaged. As I understand it, that's the primary reason to avoid used carbon of unknown provenance. Anyway, just another thing to consider.

smd4

The only carbon on my bike is in the steel.

genejockey 

So, you go not only tubeless, but tireless?

genejockey 

Turns out, pigs don't sweat at all. No functional sweat glands. Hence, wallowing in mud.

/pedant

smd4

It's a joke, son.

adlai

Update: cable snapped. Right at the metal retaining head.

This was definitely because of the cabling setup. I'll have to redo it.

My solution now is to simply use a Dremel rotary tool and drill out part of the arsis shifter so the cable routes more easily.

With this mod of the shifter, the cable hosing slides into the carbon bars easily.

adlai

I think the Chinese manufacturers have every incentive to make safe products. While they may not be able to be sued, bad quality unsafe products will be publicized on the internet. And basic desire to make a good product. Etc.

Unless the major brands are also running these parts through an ultrasound machine, how would their qc be much better?