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Looking for a new commuter/offroad bike

Old 10-09-19, 08:05 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by davei1980
I think Sheldon Brown put like a 7sp (could be wrong) on a Sturmey-Archer 3 speed hub with a triple crankset for a total of 63 speeds! I could be wrong on the details but I know he did something similar.

I don't disagree with you but 1x drivetrains have come a long way.

I understand (and correct me if I am mistaken) but in order to shift a 2x setup properly (properly, meaning each successive shift has the minimum increase in gear ratio) you need to execute "double shifts" whereby you're shifting the FD and RD simultaneously.... is this correct? If so, I am no where NEAR a good enough rider to be able to take advantage and I am probably one that's better off with a 1x drivetrain (baby steps now, I was on a single speed for 2 years! Those have their place in this world as well!)

If this is true, then does your shifting pattern change drastically for triples or do you ride those like I used to on my 1999 MTB whereby I rode on the middle ring most of the time, used the small ring as a bailout option, and the big ring so that I didn't spin out downhill???
You’ll only really have to worry about double shifts when you get into 5-6 speed territory. A half step or half step with granny setup (mine is 50/46/30f 14/16/19/23/28r) is a delightful/terrible challenge, depending on the day and the wind. But they don’t make bikes like that anymore.
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Old 10-10-19, 02:49 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by davei1980
Are the roads relatively good or poor in Latvia?
I'd say poor to average. The main roads are getting rebuilt and are overall in pretty good shape, the smaller ones though can get horrible. City/town streets - depends on the city/town. Sadly, Rīga, the capital, has some of the worst.
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Old 10-10-19, 10:02 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by davei1980
I think Sheldon Brown put like a 7sp (could be wrong) on a Sturmey-Archer 3 speed hub with a triple crankset for a total of 63 speeds! I could be wrong on the details but I know he did something similar.

I don't disagree with you but 1x drivetrains have come a long way.

I understand (and correct me if I am mistaken) but in order to shift a 2x setup properly (properly, meaning each successive shift has the minimum increase in gear ratio) you need to execute "double shifts" whereby you're shifting the FD and RD simultaneously.... is this correct? If so, I am no where NEAR a good enough rider to be able to take advantage and I am probably one that's better off with a 1x drivetrain (baby steps now, I was on a single speed for 2 years! Those have their place in this world as well!)

If this is true, then does your shifting pattern change drastically for triples or do you ride those like I used to on my 1999 MTB whereby I rode on the middle ring most of the time, used the small ring as a bailout option, and the big ring so that I didn't spin out downhill???
In my opinion, 2x systems are about the dumbest thing to be put on bikes since U-brakes...and those were awful. 2x systems have the range but shifting them presents the kinds of problems that you detail. 1x has limitation problems as I’ve detailed above. They are simple but limited. Triples are a bit more complicated because of the front derailer but they offer range...my set up currently ranges from up to 110 gear inches to 15”. I can climb walls and fly down the other side. And I’ve never found the front derailer to be that hard to set up.

Here’s a comparison of a road compact double and a road triple. If you look at the shift pattern for the triple, you can see that the steps are smaller between the ranges. The compact double does require a double shift (or more) to maintain a similar cadence. If you go from the 18 tooth gear in the high range on the double to the 18 tooth gear in the low range, there is a 20 gear inch difference and a 10mph difference. The same shift on the triple give only about a 10 gear inch difference and about a 5 mph difference. Additionally, with a triple, the range is wider.

As for the 1x vs 3x, here’s a comparison of a 1x (32 by 11-34) and a common 3x. You can see that the 1x has a low high...you’ll spin out at a fairly low speed...and a fairly high low gear. If you go to a wider range cassette in the 1x, you can get a lower low but the high still suffers. Change to a larger chainring and the low suffers.
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Old 10-10-19, 10:17 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty
That's true on a MTB or hybrid/trekking triple system, with trigger shifters. On a 2x10 or 2x11 road system the idea is to give you two passes through the "corn cob," once with the big ring and once with the small ring.
Not really. Compact doubles use 11-32 or 11-34 cassettes not narrower range cassettes that would be called a “corn cob”. A corn cob cassette would require far more than double shifts to get back to the same gear combinations. The idea is to mimic the range of a triple without the middle ring.
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Old 10-10-19, 12:13 PM
  #30  
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Oh man, you know I love a gearing thread. I'm going to save it for another time though.
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Old 10-10-19, 03:23 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
In my opinion, 2x systems are about the dumbest thing to be put on bikes since U-brakes...and those were awful. 2x systems have the range but shifting them presents the kinds of problems that you detail. 1x has limitation problems as I’ve detailed above. They are simple but limited. Triples are a bit more complicated because of the front derailer but they offer range...my set up currently ranges from up to 110 gear inches to 15”. I can climb walls and fly down the other side. And I’ve never found the front derailer to be that hard to set up.

Here’s a comparison of a road compact double and a road triple. If you look at the shift pattern for the triple, you can see that the steps are smaller between the ranges. The compact double does require a double shift (or more) to maintain a similar cadence. If you go from the 18 tooth gear in the high range on the double to the 18 tooth gear in the low range, there is a 20 gear inch difference and a 10mph difference. The same shift on the triple give only about a 10 gear inch difference and about a 5 mph difference. Additionally, with a triple, the range is wider.

As for the 1x vs 3x, here’s a comparison of a 1x (32 by 11-34) and a common 3x. You can see that the 1x has a low high...you’ll spin out at a fairly low speed...and a fairly high low gear. If you go to a wider range cassette in the 1x, you can get a lower low but the high still suffers. Change to a larger chainring and the low suffers.
Thanks for the brilliant analysis! I value your input and experience!

I find I can't pedal many more than 90-95 gear inches for any length of time on my commute so a 1x works great for me without ever having to reach for my lowest-gear. Most of my commute is spent on the 3rd to smallest and 4th to smallest cogs, which is probably the best outcome for my chainline as well.
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Old 10-10-19, 03:38 PM
  #32  
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In my opinion, 2x systems are about the dumbest thing to be put on bikes since U-brakes...and those were awful. 2x systems have the range but shifting them presents the kinds of problems that you detail...
I gotta call BS. I get that this might be true for you, but 2x is required for my riding. I need tight sharp shifts with my derailer, and small jumps between gears. I rarely shift the front chain ring, but when I need it, I need it. I typically run the small chaining for solo long distance rides, or the large chain ring for fast group rides. I've spent enough time changing cassettes and cogs on my track bike, that I don't need to bolt on a different chain ring for a different ride. Just ain't gonna do that.
I get that 2x is dumb for your riding, but for other people it is really required.

You can get the same range from 1x, but not with small gear jump and the tight quick shifts I get from small gear jumps - 1x doesn't do both.
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Old 10-10-19, 05:20 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by chas58
I gotta call BS. I get that this might be true for you, but 2x is required for my riding. I need tight sharp shifts with my derailer, and small jumps between gears. I rarely shift the front chain ring, but when I need it, I need it. I typically run the small chaining for solo long distance rides, or the large chain ring for fast group rides. I've spent enough time changing cassettes and cogs on my track bike, that I don't need to bolt on a different chain ring for a different ride. Just ain't gonna do that.
I get that 2x is dumb for your riding, but for other people it is really required.

You can get the same range from 1x, but not with small gear jump and the tight quick shifts I get from small gear jumps - 1x doesn't do both.
I recently switched RDs which allowed me to switch out my Ultegra 12-27 10speed cassette for a Deore 11-36 10speed one. I am running one 39T ring.

I do like the added range on the bottom register but I also miss the tighter cluster of gears around the top and middle of the range for my commute so I totally get you.
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Old 10-10-19, 05:35 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by chas58
I gotta call BS. I get that this might be true for you, but 2x is required for my riding. I need tight sharp shifts with my derailer, and small jumps between gears. I rarely shift the front chain ring, but when I need it, I need it. I typically run the small chaining for solo long distance rides, or the large chain ring for fast group rides. I've spent enough time changing cassettes and cogs on my track bike, that I don't need to bolt on a different chain ring for a different ride. Just ain't gonna do that.
I get that 2x is dumb for your riding, but for other people it is really required.

You can get the same range from 1x, but not with small gear jump and the tight quick shifts I get from small gear jumps - 1x doesn't do both.
To be clear, I mean 2x wide range systems like compact doubles. Those don’t have small jumps between rear gears since they are typically using an 11-32 or 11-34 cassette. Traditional double road drivetrains have much closer ratios. They also lack the range of compact doubles.
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Old 10-10-19, 05:44 PM
  #35  
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@cyccomute you'd really hate my bike - it occurs to me it's both a 1x drivetrain with cantilever/U brakes LOL!
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Old 10-10-19, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by davei1980
@cyccomute you'd really hate my bike - it occurs to me it's both a 1x drivetrain with cantilever/U brakes LOL!
Who ever said I don’t like cantilevers?
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Old 10-10-19, 05:52 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Who ever said I don’t like cantilevers?
Aren't U brakes and cantilever brakes the same thing?

Anyway - this is what I have, I installed and adjusted them but clearly not up to speed on the vernacular!:
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Old 10-11-19, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by davei1980
Aren't U brakes and cantilever brakes the same thing?

Anyway - this is what I have, I installed and adjusted them but clearly not up to speed on the vernacular!:
Nope. U Brakes were a thing in the late 80s. They tended to be mounted under the chain stay on mountain bikes which is the worst place to put a brake on the bike. You could have mounted them on the downtime and kept them completely away from the wheels and it still would have been a better place to mount them. They also mount on a different spacing of the brake stud so they aren't interchangeable with a cantilever brake.

Cantilever brakes share some slight similarities with U brakes in that they are a center pull brake but that's about were the similarity ends. Your bike has cantilevers. I have 3 bikes with cantilevers and haven't got a problem with them. I've even mountain biked extensively with cantilevers and never found them to be particularly bad as stopping a mountain bike even on steep rough trails.
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Old 10-11-19, 10:33 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by NDB
By "off road" I'm definitely not talking about full-on trails . Mainly gravel paths, really badly chipped up roads & sidewalks (daily), and woodland over tree roots and the like. I haven't ridden a real bike (non BSO) without front suspension, so I don't know how comfortable it is (I tried a BSO without front suspension and it was horrible - that bike ride ended within a matter of minutes).

A test ride is probably the easiest way for me to figure out whether I'd benefit from front susp or not
It sounds like big squishy tires would work better for your conditions than front suspension, so definitely test ride. I like my vintage steel mountain bike, with 2.1" tires inflated to 35 psi in the front and 40-45 psi in the back (me and the panniers add up). I can roll over anything I need to roll over (yes, even my tiny 26" wheels), and the tires just soak it up. When it's really chunky, loosen up; I stand with my knees and elbows bent and a very light grip on the handlebars, just to keep it going straight. Your knees and elbows are excellent shock absorbers, taking any leftovers from the wheels. It's actually fun. YMMV, of course.
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Old 10-12-19, 09:45 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
I have 3 bikes with cantilevers and haven't got a problem with them. I've even mountain biked extensively with cantilevers and never found them to be particularly bad as stopping a mountain bike even on steep rough trails.
Hey thanks again! I like my cantis just fine - they stop great with the correct adjustment, no noticeable drop off from my 105 dual pivot calipers I had on my single speed. I do think discs are superior but also not everyone needs them all the time. My bike is used MOSTLY for commuting with a little of everything else mixed in. This is going to sound weird but I do VERY LITTLE braking on my commute - it's mostly flat and mostly in bike lanes/MUP. All the major intersections except one has an overpass or underpass. St. Sheldon does recommend running them w/ fenders or reflector brackets in case the cable snaps, I am doing this, although I am guessing this was only a problem for 90s MTBs with knobbies. I think most road/CX tires wouldn't be an issue if this happened.

I do catch flak from my triathalon buddy because they're "not aero" LOL

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Old 08-27-20, 07:54 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by subgrade
I'd say poor to average. The main roads are getting rebuilt and are overall in pretty good shape, the smaller ones though can get horrible. City/town streets - depends on the city/town. Sadly, Rīga, the capital, has some of the worst.
As a citizen of Riga, I can say only - true and nothing much changes.
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