Cassette play or freehub play? Unsure
10-29-19, 09:33 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Cassette play or freehub play? Unsure
Hi ,
I have a bike with a shimano 8 speed cassette on this 8 speed shimano hub pictured below.
The cassette has significantly more play than any of my other bikes cassettes if I hold the chain rings and wiggle it.Maybe like 2-3 mm
I removed the cassette and I did not see a spacer but I assume I don't need any spacer if I have an 8 speed cassette on a hub marked 8 speed ?
The cassette was also on very tight so I am pretty sure it wasn't installed loose. The sprockets are all fused and can't be seperated.
I was thinking the play might actually be in the freehub , I don't know if you can test for that but after trying to jiggle it about it seems to not have any play or movement in it.
I suspect this play in the cassette is why this bike has never really shifted well for long despite my effforts to tune in the gears which are close to perfect on my other bikes.
Any ideas ?
J
I have a bike with a shimano 8 speed cassette on this 8 speed shimano hub pictured below.
The cassette has significantly more play than any of my other bikes cassettes if I hold the chain rings and wiggle it.Maybe like 2-3 mm
I removed the cassette and I did not see a spacer but I assume I don't need any spacer if I have an 8 speed cassette on a hub marked 8 speed ?
The cassette was also on very tight so I am pretty sure it wasn't installed loose. The sprockets are all fused and can't be seperated.
I was thinking the play might actually be in the freehub , I don't know if you can test for that but after trying to jiggle it about it seems to not have any play or movement in it.
I suspect this play in the cassette is why this bike has never really shifted well for long despite my effforts to tune in the gears which are close to perfect on my other bikes.
Any ideas ?
J
10-29-19, 10:35 AM
#3
Really Old Senior Member
8 & 9 speed don't need a spacer.
Is that hub even used? Bearing adjustment?
As mentioned, WHERE is the play? (and do you have hubs that don't?)
I built a couple wheels using that hub because it was inexpensive.
The one on my hybrid eats the right cone about every 1000-1500 miles.
The one on my Rockhopper--- MUCH faster because I spread the frame about 5mm and it apparently puts the cone in more of a bind.
Get at least a low level Deore at a minimum.
Is that hub even used? Bearing adjustment?
As mentioned, WHERE is the play? (and do you have hubs that don't?)
I built a couple wheels using that hub because it was inexpensive.
The one on my hybrid eats the right cone about every 1000-1500 miles.
The one on my Rockhopper--- MUCH faster because I spread the frame about 5mm and it apparently puts the cone in more of a bind.
Get at least a low level Deore at a minimum.
10-29-19, 11:16 AM
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Play within the cassette stack is often able to be found by trying to pry two adjacent cogs away from each other with a screwdriver, if gaps open then... Or by holding two cogs a few away from each other with two chain whips held in opposing rotational directions. Try rotating the two cogs one way then reverse the direction. If there's movement then...
To test for freehub play simply grab the body (cogs removed and hub secured in frame) with a large set of channel locks and try moving about.
Freehubs that use loose bearings (as Shimano units do at that version level) should have a slight freeplay/slop. At the teeth of a 28t cog maybe a mm or two. Much tighter and other issues can become the problems. The tiny balls that these freehubs use and the small bearing diameters make for faster wear then what we use to see with classic freewheels. Since the freehub isn't replaced when the cogs wear out (generally) one freehub can see many thousands of miles before someone does any service to it, if ever.
To Shimano's credit (after designing a more wear prone component and marketing it as the better "way") they have made replacement freehub bodies available in the aftermarket. However there are a number of small dimensional and bearing/seal differences that need to be heeded if the exact replacement isn't available. Andy
To test for freehub play simply grab the body (cogs removed and hub secured in frame) with a large set of channel locks and try moving about.
Freehubs that use loose bearings (as Shimano units do at that version level) should have a slight freeplay/slop. At the teeth of a 28t cog maybe a mm or two. Much tighter and other issues can become the problems. The tiny balls that these freehubs use and the small bearing diameters make for faster wear then what we use to see with classic freewheels. Since the freehub isn't replaced when the cogs wear out (generally) one freehub can see many thousands of miles before someone does any service to it, if ever.
To Shimano's credit (after designing a more wear prone component and marketing it as the better "way") they have made replacement freehub bodies available in the aftermarket. However there are a number of small dimensional and bearing/seal differences that need to be heeded if the exact replacement isn't available. Andy
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AndrewRStewart
AndrewRStewart
10-29-19, 12:56 PM
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
That hub pictured is not the actual hub on the bike its a spare of the exact same model that was easier to photograph.
When I mean play I mean something like this but a little less severe;
There is no play in the hubs once the QR is tightened , the wheel isn't loose on the bike. The play isn't between the sprockets , its the whole cassette moving as one laterally on the freehub body or its the freehub body moving , not sure yet.
When I mean play I mean something like this but a little less severe;
There is no play in the hubs once the QR is tightened , the wheel isn't loose on the bike. The play isn't between the sprockets , its the whole cassette moving as one laterally on the freehub body or its the freehub body moving , not sure yet.
10-29-19, 01:35 PM
#7
Really Old Senior Member
Maybe the fixing bolt is loose?
It DOES take a 10mm hex wrench. (I checked)
It DOES take a 10mm hex wrench. (I checked)
Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 10-29-19 at 01:43 PM.
10-29-19, 03:16 PM
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That hub pictured is not the actual hub on the bike its a spare of the exact same model that was easier to photograph.
When I mean play I mean something like this but a little less severe;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=B0cFd5o0RvI
There is no play in the hubs once the QR is tightened , the wheel isn't loose on the bike. The play isn't between the sprockets , its the whole cassette moving as one laterally on the freehub body or its the freehub body moving , not sure yet.
When I mean play I mean something like this but a little less severe;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=B0cFd5o0RvI
There is no play in the hubs once the QR is tightened , the wheel isn't loose on the bike. The play isn't between the sprockets , its the whole cassette moving as one laterally on the freehub body or its the freehub body moving , not sure yet.
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AndrewRStewart
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10-29-19, 09:29 PM
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Well folks,
I remember when freewheels were only five gears and some riders came into the shop and were concerned that the freewheel was damaged because the sprockets moved as the freewheel turned. That machining and heat treatment of the parts always left some slop/play in the working of the freewheel. Same goes for free-hubs. They all have some degree of play in them and I have yet to find one that I can adjust the bearing tolerances close enough to to keep that play out of them. They are either too loose or they bind up when you get within a few thousandths of an inch because of the inconsistencies in the heat treatment of the parts.
Because we are now using very thin chains and compressing more chain rings into the rear clusters any inconsistencies of the free hub are multiplied in application. This is likely one of those cases, and a new free-hub is in order. Smiles, MH
I remember when freewheels were only five gears and some riders came into the shop and were concerned that the freewheel was damaged because the sprockets moved as the freewheel turned. That machining and heat treatment of the parts always left some slop/play in the working of the freewheel. Same goes for free-hubs. They all have some degree of play in them and I have yet to find one that I can adjust the bearing tolerances close enough to to keep that play out of them. They are either too loose or they bind up when you get within a few thousandths of an inch because of the inconsistencies in the heat treatment of the parts.
Because we are now using very thin chains and compressing more chain rings into the rear clusters any inconsistencies of the free hub are multiplied in application. This is likely one of those cases, and a new free-hub is in order. Smiles, MH
There is no way you could have watched the OP's video and still typed that response.
10-30-19, 09:06 AM
#10
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I, too, have spent many hours (when my time wasn't the value it is now) playing with those thin shims within freewheels. Trying to minimize freewheel bearing slop. Some brands are nicer to work with and have more consistent function then others. When freehubs came about I shook my head, knowing that reducing the bearing capacity will create more wear over time and increase the cost of repairs. All this in search for more and smaller cogs. Both "features" not really needed to enjoy your bike ride. Andy
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AndrewRStewart
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10-30-19, 01:55 PM
#11
Really Old Senior Member
I still say loose fixing bolt which could easily be verified with minimal effort.
If not, buy a new hub since the free hub assembly is nearly the same price. You might as well get spare cones, axle etc. for 3-5$ more.
The RM-30 is crude compared to the better models. Cones aren't even polished, but have the "rust browning".
If not, buy a new hub since the free hub assembly is nearly the same price. You might as well get spare cones, axle etc. for 3-5$ more.
The RM-30 is crude compared to the better models. Cones aren't even polished, but have the "rust browning".
10-30-19, 03:02 PM
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I still say loose fixing bolt which could easily be verified with minimal effort.
If not, buy a new hub since the free hub assembly is nearly the same price. You might as well get spare cones, axle etc. for 3-5$ more.
The RM-30 is crude compared to the better models. Cones aren't even polished, but have the "rust browning".
If not, buy a new hub since the free hub assembly is nearly the same price. You might as well get spare cones, axle etc. for 3-5$ more.
The RM-30 is crude compared to the better models. Cones aren't even polished, but have the "rust browning".
Andy
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AndrewRStewart
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10-30-19, 03:22 PM
#13
Really Old Senior Member
Yeah, oxide......of some type
My point is it's easy to check and then one could determine if that's it or if the FH body is toast.
This the actual factory replacement I think I got 6 from SKS in the UK delivered for $14? The other (shiny) is the $1 one my LBS sells you if you go in and ask for "a rear cone".
10-30-19, 07:32 PM
#14
Really Old Senior Member
Bill,
If it is a loose fixing bolt, it can be tightened, if it is not damaged. Perhaps some locktite would help hold it in place. As the OP says it moves about 2-3 mm and if it has a 34t ring he is using for observation that would be consistent with some bearing inconsistency Or the loose fixing bolt. I guess it comes down to the skill set of the OP. Does he have the tools for the hub overhaul, and the 10mm wrench for the fixing bolt check? And you are correct about a new hub fixing the entire problem. Question then becomes: Can the OP re-lace the wheel? I guess I have created awhole new batch of questions about the process and not really have a good diagnosis for the OP. At least he has a few ways to pursue the reason for the wobble.
Sorry Bill I had to think through the the process you were going through. Buy the whole hub and use the new freehub and keep all the extra parts for spares. Smiles, MH
If it is a loose fixing bolt, it can be tightened, if it is not damaged. Perhaps some locktite would help hold it in place. As the OP says it moves about 2-3 mm and if it has a 34t ring he is using for observation that would be consistent with some bearing inconsistency Or the loose fixing bolt. I guess it comes down to the skill set of the OP. Does he have the tools for the hub overhaul, and the 10mm wrench for the fixing bolt check? And you are correct about a new hub fixing the entire problem. Question then becomes: Can the OP re-lace the wheel? I guess I have created awhole new batch of questions about the process and not really have a good diagnosis for the OP. At least he has a few ways to pursue the reason for the wobble.
Sorry Bill I had to think through the the process you were going through. Buy the whole hub and use the new freehub and keep all the extra parts for spares. Smiles, MH
WHY would you want to disassemble a NEW hub for parts?
Just use as is and you have a NEW HUB!
10-30-19, 09:56 PM
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Because it's easier for most who don't do bike stuff a lot to replace the hub's innards compared to relacing a wheel, and from the old spokes and rim yet.. Andy
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AndrewRStewart
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10-30-19, 10:01 PM
#16
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I'd missed the part about all the pics posted at first as NOT being the hub the OP was talking about.
11-06-19, 04:55 PM
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Not sure I agree with this. If the freehub body has well worn bearings then MH's comments are applicable. Taking the body apart and trying to "adjust" the bearing play will likely be a lost cause. He did end with the likely solution for whatever plagues it, replacement.
I, too, have spent many hours (when my time wasn't the value it is now) playing with those thin shims within freewheels. Trying to minimize freewheel bearing slop. Some brands are nicer to work with and have more consistent function then others. When freehubs came about I shook my head, knowing that reducing the bearing capacity will create more wear over time and increase the cost of repairs. All this in search for more and smaller cogs. Both "features" not really needed to enjoy your bike ride. Andy
I, too, have spent many hours (when my time wasn't the value it is now) playing with those thin shims within freewheels. Trying to minimize freewheel bearing slop. Some brands are nicer to work with and have more consistent function then others. When freehubs came about I shook my head, knowing that reducing the bearing capacity will create more wear over time and increase the cost of repairs. All this in search for more and smaller cogs. Both "features" not really needed to enjoy your bike ride. Andy
Of course on second reading of the post containing the video, I see it is not the OP's actual hub. I based my comment on the video itself, and that is not a result of normal manufacturing tolerances. As for the OP's issue, if it is minimal, then yes, I am sure it is normal. They all have some play, just not as much play as the video, which is what I was commenting on erroneously.
Last edited by phughes; 11-07-19 at 12:24 PM.
