Kontact 

You could probably measure them yourself.

oldbobcat

Here's an old Boy Scout skill. Use a stick to measure something whose size you don't know by comparing its projection to something you do know. In this case I used a pencil to compare the head tubes to the fork blades. I don't know how long fork blades are, but it's safe to assume they're almost identical. You could do me one better by using a ruler. Or compare it to the rim diameter, 622 mm.

Or you could eyeball the proximity of the handlebar ends to the top tube. In the case of the Victeur, they're about level with the lower edge of the top tube. In the case of the Planet X, they're a lot closer to the down tube. You can flip the stem and fiddle with spacers to bring the bar up to the same level on the Planet X. Or a cm or two lower, allowing that the Planet X is larger and has a longer head tube. Of course, this stem might still be too long. Back in the day, we used to approximate reach by measuring the distance between the saddle nose and the handlebar with our forearm, elbow to fingertip. I think the biblical term for it is "cubit." My span from saddle nose to handlebar center is 1 cubit plus 8.75 cm. I ride with a very flat back.

I know this isn't as accurate as a factory geometry chart, but you don't have that, so you have to improvise, and the proof is in the riding anyway.

Sam12345

Thats a very old setup, picture it with a 140 stem -7, with the cone, and 1.5 cm under neath it, that was when it was "right"

Sam12345

I dont have the forme anymore

oldbobcat

So did you like it when it was "right?" Or if it's not "right" now, what is preventing you from achieving "rightness?" I am totally confused now. You complain about pain, but you post dated photos. What was wrong with the Victeur when you took the photo?

Sam12345

Its the only picture I had of the headtube to show you

Whats was preventing me from rightness was trying to get the same measurments from the victeur to the planet X I hope..

The rightness, had me "unweightin my arms and upper body, as steve hoggs explains

oldbobcat

Well, all I can tell you is that the headtube on the Planet X is taller and you won't be able to load it up with spacers because the steerer is already cut, and it's most likely that the top tube is longer, too, and I have no idea how the Victeur was set up except that it had a 13 or 14 cm stem with 1.5 cm of spacer plus what looks like a 1.0 cm cone, that may have been installed +7 or -7 but you aren't telling us. And your neck and shoulders hurt.

So here's my last question. Why are you using the longest possible stem (14 cm) on a bike with a longer top tube than your old one, who's stem length you apparently can't remember. And why are you so focused on head tube length (stack) and refusing to consider top tube + stem length (horizontal reach)?

Sam12345

I have changed the stem to a 110 thats why I made this topic and mentioned that my neck was less achy in post #1 the reach from tip of saddle on the forme was 60cm with 8.5 - 9 cm setback 81.5cm saddle height

Iride01 

Is this all about your neck being achy still?

Possibly you just need a helmet that will give you better forward vision so you don't need to lift your head up so much. Some helmets come too low on your brow and block your view down the road. That forces you to bend your neck too much and strains your neck muscles. You helmet might have some adjustment to help keep it further back on your head.

Also a arched back can also cause you to lift your head too much to see down the road. Straighten your back if it is arched. It'll take some time to get use to that though.

Otherwise, if you are looking to raise your bars for a solution, then you probably have the wrong bike and should get a different model bike with a higher frame stack. If your Forme Victeur was from your younger days... well things change for some as they get older.

Sam12345

Its defiently not the helmet, and my back is straight, the smp saddle supports that to with more anterior rotation of the pelvis and if anything I got more flexible, with 8-11 years difference. Im 30 now

Iride01 

Yet you want the handlebars higher than what the bike currently supports. Instead of making the bike look dorky with weirdly angled stems, you should consider another road bike that has a higher frame stack that will have less saddle to bar drop that you seem to be wanting.

If your neck isn't achy from craning it up to see down the road, then maybe you really want to be stretched out more and should try a longer stem.

It's also possible you might want a shorter stem to let you put more bend in your elbows to help with the muscle strain.

And if the strain is more lower between the shoulder blades, then perhaps narrower handlebars. I went from 42cm wide to 38cm bars to alleviate some pain between my shoulder blades and some elbow pain that felt similar to a shin splint.

Sam12345

My neck seems to shrink into my shoulders

oldbobcat

Thank you.

Sam12345

https://geometrygeeks.bike/bike/forme-longcliffe-2019/

the longcliffe has a 20.5 headtube

Sam12345

Holy ****, i have found the geometry chart... https://web.archive.org/web/20110228...ry/victeur.php




Now did i have a 61 or... or 58... frame

Sam12345

That has to be a 1.5cm cone? It was a FSA one

Sam12345

What is that a symptom off anyone know?

To high of a stem/to long/to short? saddle setback?

Iride01 

If it's when you are on the bike and in a fairly aero position, then I'd say it is because you are having to crane your neck up too far to see ahead of you down the road.

Might also be just poor upper body strength and bad posture. And certainly a poor fitting bike or a helmet that comes too low on your brow might exacerbate that. Your focus on head tube length won't really help. I've seen headtubes on very large bikes that were short compared to other models that have longer headtubes on a smaller size bike..

On vintage bikes you could somewhat see heat tube length as saying what it size was or how high it's saddle to bar drop would be. But todays bikes don't all fit that older design style of making bikes.

It's reach and stack you have to figure out if it's the position the bike puts you in that is the issue. Along with a few other things.

oldbobcat

This guy explains it better than I can.

oldbobcat

And here's a cycling magazine cover from the days when amateur fitters all said the handlebar should be level with the saddle, and elbow-to-fingertip from the saddle nose (1975). This illustrator captured the "ears tucked between the shoulder blades" anomaly unknowingly, probably because all us newbies rode that way.

Sam12345

So yeh i lowered the stem by 1cm, and its a 110cm, less neck pain, still a bit there, but much improvement.. I could move my neck arond without any ache/tension/feeling of restrction.. so maybe I need to revist saddle setback, or go even lower. I think im at about 12-13cm saddle drop to bar.. when I had the 1cm spacer on, and the -17 120 stem my neck was aching, then probably too long? I think the -17th 120 is like 1.5cm longer than the 110 -6?