bikenh

After 15 months of not having ridden anything more than 79 miles in a day, back in June last year, only two 70 mile days this year thus far I decided a couple of weeks ago with the time free and decent weather to see if I could push myself out the door and do a long ride around home...haven't did a decent long ride around home since 2012, the long distance bike trips is where I've did all my high mileage riding in the past several years. I know how to ride the miles so unless I have to go somewhere...I don't. Why stress it when I don't have to.

Three weeks ago I went and rode a 200 miler. Surprised I could even make it out of the house. Normally I would wake up in the morning and fall right back asleep and end up spending the day riding errands and go nowhere. I was surprised how well the fixed gear double went. I did not the feeling I had toward the second half of it but managed to finish in 13 hours on bike time, 15 hours total time, and it had 8100 feet of climbing.

Last week I went out and rode the same double again, again fixed gear. This time I had 12:12 on bike time and something like 14:30 total, without going back and looking I can't say for sure the total time. The same feeling struck again, not to the same degree only later in the ride.

Yesterday I went out and did the same route multispeed. Definitely noticed a few difference. I think I would end up always being faster fixed than multispeed. Yesterday was 12:29 and thanks to an hour long storm I set out and a flat tire 2.5 miles from home that didn't want to be changed it was 16 hours total time.

The two big differences yesterday were the switch over to multispeed and the fact I was doing something I very rarely do...wore a heartrate monitor. The heartrate monitor gave some very interesting stats that I don't fully understand to say the least. I have several ideas of what I was seeing happen but I don't know for sure just what was going on.

The ride between the three weeks has went about the same. I typically start to wear down about the half way point, give or take depending on the temperature.

Yesterday I came to realize the wear down was as a direct result of the reduction in heart rate. During the first 90-100 miles I was pretty much most of the time running 150-162 beats per minute. As I started to notice the wear down setting in I also noticed the heart rate dropping down to a constant 140-150 bpm. A while later it was down to 130-140 bpm. Couldn't get it to go above that no matter how hard I tried and there was plenty of climbing to be had, 3500 feet in the first half and 4600 feet in the second half with the best climbs at the end of the ride as I'm getting back around home. After the thunderstorms moved through and I got on the bike I was down to the 120-130 bpm range and by the time I was getting home I was down 110-120 bpm. Couldn't get it above that no matter how hard I tried. The body was tired out so I can imagine the result of that was the natural reduction in heartrate.

The real question is what was I seeing happen. Since I felt the same general thing pan out each of the three weeks am I noticing a nutrition problem, a hydration problem, a lack of long distance shape problem, or??? I ride 7 days a week pretty much year round, just not much in the way of big miles anymore. Hence why I talk about being out of shape for long distance miles.

Yes, there was a steady dropoff in speed that occured with the drop off in heartrate.

I did drink 9 liters of water throughout the ride with 5 of those liters of water have 1.5 teaspoon of sea salt tossed in. I keep trying to get rid of sodium stains and have no luck thus far getting rid of them. I did 4 bananas and bagels during the ride as well. Plus I ate probably round 3/4 cup to a full cup of dry oatmeal as well. I can see the possibility of hydration maybe. Yesterday by the end I did have the most discolored urine of any of the three days thus far but it still wasn't as bad as I have seen before in previous long rideds back years ago. Just a slight discoloration.

What would cause the constant dropoff in heartrate?

unterhausen

people do experience something like that on long distance rides, but I think it takes longer that what it took for you. I am thinking that it was simply related to how much power you could put out. I am having problems thinking of what the term for it is, so I can't look it up.

OldTryGuy

Try maintaining the speed until the end and see what happens with HR. I have never experienced a lower HR unless I scale back
my pace.

reef58

Sometimes if you are fatigued you can't get your heart rate up. I am taking a wild stab in the dark, but I suspect you were ring the first part a bit higher than you can maintain for the duration.

Flounce

This is my experience as well, i.e. after about 8-10 hours on the bike, I can't get my heart rate up despite my weak attempts to sprint for short distances. I figured that was normal with some fatigue.

I will say that the OPs heart rate for the start of the ride seems kinda high, my first couple hours of any ride over a century are relatively leisurely (110-120 bpm) or so and then I ramp it up once I'm nicely warmed up.

bikenh

I'm 44 years old and typically I ride in around the 140-160 range depending on what I'm doing so there wasn't anything too unusual with the heart. Top end last year was around 182/3 bpm from what I remember so I was still riding in the rough 80% of max. Generally it seemed like I was right around 152, the higher numbers were on the climbs. Maintaining of the heart rate throughout the ride though was a shocker. It was quite an interesting observation to see how it all came together the same way.

The one extra thing I noticed two days ago on the ride that I didn't have the chance for before, simply because I wasn't wearing a watch/heartrate monitor, was the swelling of the wrist. I had to loosen the wrist band twice during the ride. Like I said the previous two weeks I didn't have anything so I would have never noticed it. I thought swelling came from body retaining water...doesn't it. At the same time I thought sodium stain came from low sodium, not high sodium...doesn't it. If the sodium was balanced I shouldn't get the swelling, should I, and I shouldn't get the sodium stains. Am I missing something here???

But what causes the power output to drop, is it the nutrition, hydration, lack of long distance training, or ??? I remember back in 2012 something microscopically similar occurring. I had ridden 5 doubles, including 3 in as many weeks and each one I would slow down toward the end. Granted I had several other things going on at the time that I have since smartened up on. I went on one of the longest of the stretch, 225 miles and I kept getting faster all the way through until the end, even when climbing to get home, where I normally I would always start slowing down because of the climbing. I was shocked by the time I got home. Completely a new experience. Back then I never gave anything much a thought but thanks to all the biking I have did since then I know when to something smells funny. I know when to ask the questions.

Yeah, this has been a rather interesting experience. I'm glad I suckered myself into it three weeks ago. It had been long enough since I had did any decent riding around home I had given up hope in doing anything but bike/ultra touring long distance riding ever again. Good to see I can still ride around home I think the situational burnout may finally be broken, at least for the time being.

reef58

There is a big difference between 140 and 160. Based on your max 140 is an all day pace. 160 You may be pushing up near AT. My numbers are similar to yours and 152 is not something I can maintain for a double. Seems to me you did pretty well. Nothing to be ashamed of. I would suggest starting off a bit lower closer to 140 and then finish strong.

yannisg

If you cannot bring yr heart rate up to its normal riding range its a message from yr body that is tired, and you need to back off. Usually, if you reduce the intensity you will see that yr heart rate will gradually return to it's previous level or close to it. It might take some time. If you keep pushing, and ignore yr body's message you might eventually have to stop and take a break. You should also observe that if you stop yr heart rate will take more time to reach its normal level.
I've observed this condition many times.

bikenh

Funny thing was after taking the hour off for the thunderstorm that passed through I still saw no sign of any kind of recovery. It was after the t-storm that the heart rate had dropped down into the 120-130 range and then dropped further by the time I got home.

The second week I would say I did push it a bit too much as it did feel, for a little while on the second half that I had lactic acid in the legs, but both the first week and this week I had no indication of lactic acid at all.

yannisg

[QUOTE=bikenh;19770595]Funny thing was after taking the hour off for the thunderstorm that passed through I still saw no sign of any kind of recovery. It was after the t-storm that the heart rate had dropped down into the 120-130 range and then dropped further by the time I got home.

I always wear a heart monitor on my rides, and download the results in Garmin connect to look at them.
I have observed the heart rate behavior, as I described, many times, and try to avoid it. Sometimes I get carried away, and pay for it later. Usually, if I see that I can't keep my HR in the usual range 140-145 I'll back-off to avoid it dropping further. On occasions where I've pushed too hard for too long my body has gotten so exhausted that I have to take multiple frequent breaks going up a hard climb. Even a lower gear doesn't seem to help.
I can only comment that, maybe, yr body was overtired, and needed a longer period to recover.
Also, I would suggest to monitor yr HR behavior based on length of rides and intensity for multiple rides to look for trends.

unterhausen

I think stopping for an hour probably wasn't enough. Maybe 2 hours with a 90 minute sleep period would do it, that seems to work wonders for me. I have been thinking about wearing a heart rate monitor on rides, but haven't paired it with my gps yet. On my trainer, I don't think I've ever hit 160bpm, even during intervals and I've tried. I'm guessing on most of my long rides, it rarely gets above 130 unless I am really pushing myself too much.

therealdoctor

Basically what everyone is experiencing here is the art of: Cardiac Fatigue. We can feel our muscles in our legs, arms, back, chest, neck etc…But we can not really feel the heart until you have a heart attack.[ and even with this, the pain may feel like acid indigestion or shoulder pain or jaw pain ]. Hence with cardiac fatigue, the heart rate will fall during an extended bout of exertion. Usually this will take 1 to 4 hours depending how hard you push in the first portions,, of lets us say 60 to 200 miles, if you start the ride at a popper pace then cardiac fatigue may never occur. If you start out at 80% of your max heart rate or FAT [ functional aerobic threshold ] for the first hour then you will not be able to continue at that rate accordingly. If you start out at 60 to 65% then you might be able to handle this for 200 to 300 miles.The fellows riding the RAAM or RAW are only shooting for a heart rate of 120 to 125 and never to exceed 130 to 135. I remember climbing one mountain and hitting 165 and peg that for about 1 hour. Made the descent of about 5 miles on the other side, got to the - turn around - and started back up the other side and by the top of the climb … boom the heart rate was at 120 then 115 then 110 then 105, had to drop out of the ride. Again was doing about 350 to 400 a week in the heat of Texas. I did a 120 mile training ride and at about 80 miles, boom, just over the next miles the heart fell to about 110a gain. And, yes you are correct, no matter what you tell the legs to do the heart rate will not come back up. With this you need to get home as easy as you can or pull out of the ride/race and look at the next week as recovery, just 10 to 15 miles on the indoor spinner and do not get above 120 and let the heart rest and/or just take 3 or 4 days off. The heart will respond just like any other muscle in the body. Sometimes the legs tire out first … sometimes the heart tires out first. If the heart tires first it is usually [ and this is for riders that are in excellent condition ] from over working the heart for a period of time.Thus lets say you have a 100 mile course you train on for Saturday and there are some pretty good long climbs at the 45 mile mark to 60 miles and today you are justgoing to kill it.You started the ride hard, and dang it, you are going to kill those climbs. After the climbs your heart rate dropped. The legs feel OK, but the heart rate is dropping. This is classic cardiac fatigue. If you notice that this is occurring week after week you need to see a cardiologist that has the ability to do a stress echo and see how the ventricles are responding to a cardiac work load. So essentially we speak of how much blood the heart pumps out, this is called Cardiac Output. The amount of blood ejected with each stroke of the heart times the number of beats per minute. Thus if the heart rate falls to 100 then by definition your cardiac output has diminished significantly, and there is no way you are going to get this back, the only thing that works is rest. Thus, if your heart rate drops secondary to over working the body, let the body rest and the heart rest. This has happened to me twice. Further note: Had a patient that came to see me with this exact event and she vehemently argued with me. I told her to take a week off or 2, and just ride for 10 miles and walk a mile here or there. She was training for another triathlon. She stated “everyone knows that if the heart is beating slower it is because the heart is getting stronger so it beats slower because it is stronger”. She kept training and then went on to damage her heart permanently. She had continued to work out excessively for the next 6 weeks. She developed a cardiomyopathy … and that was the end of that. This occurred at age 45. Now she sees a cardiologist and pulmonologist. It turned out pretty bad. She was only reaching a heart rate of 100 or so and still riding and running. So … take care of your heart and listen to your body. And when the heart rate goes from 155 to 105 get off the bike. As well your heart rate will not respond after things such as, mono, the flu, multiple medications such as beta-blockers etc..Note: I wrote this in more simple terms here, I am not writing this for a medical journal. Wow, this did not transpose very well when cut and past, sorry.

Rowan

Thanks for posting! It's always handy to have a real doctor on board, not so much for personal medical advice, but for the sort of overview you have provided here.

It's well known (or should be) that rest is a fundamental requirement for a training program of any sort. People do forget that the heart comprises muscle and that if other muscles are fatiguing, it's only natural for the heart muscle to do the same, and therefore it also needs the rest.

unterhausen

there are plenty of cardiologists that ride long distance. I am pretty sure what we experience as long distance riders is not particularly concerning. There is a definite cardiac effect to riding multiple days, it's common to have swelling in the lower legs on a 1200 because of lower cardiac efficiency. It's probably wise to rest after riding a 1200k before flying or at least wear compression socks. There was a case of a U.S. rider having a stroke after PBP, otherwise in good shape.

Machka 

Yeah ... DVT.

I didn't think that would ever happen to me ... I'm fit and active and everything. In May 2009, I cycled a 1000 km month including a number of long rides. In early June I took a long flight to Australia. About 2 hours before the flight landed, I developed DVT.

When I finally saw a Dr, he told Rowan that I had come in just in the nick of time.


And it is also normal to retain water (which causes the swelling) after long rides ... although I'm not sure that's related to the DVT.

seajaye

Great info, doc!

I was going to chime in and say that this is pretty much my experience with every single brevet I've ridden. I wear an HR monitor and record everything, and it's evident that it only gets more drastic as the distance wears on.

::insert screen cap of a brevet from Strava here where my HR falls and falls and falls::

Carbonfiberboy 

Not cardiac fatigue, sorry doc. I can hold the same HR on climbs for a full 15,000' 400k. As the doc says, RAAM riders can hold the same HR the whole way. It's nutrition and pace. If your pace is too high, you'll exhaust your glycogen. Then you're running on fat and blood sugar (BS), which isn't bonking, but it's slower and your HR will not be as high. If you see your HR drop, eat more. Actually, eat more high GI calories from the start. If I eat and pace properly, I can still sprint after 200 miles and see my HR hit LT.

Next test ride, eat 250 cal/hr right from the start. Monitor your HR. Near the end, see how high you can get your HR on a climb. Next time, eat the same way and use that final high HR as a cap - never exceed it. You'll have a steady HR all the way and you'll recover better.

On your geared bike - you're not using the gears productively. Rethink your cadence choices.

bikenh

[QUOTE=therealdoctor;19807607]Basically what everyone is experiencing here is the art of: Cardiac Fatigue QUOTE]

While what you say does sound a lot like what I was experiencing, what you say is also in total contridiction to what I've experienced in the past. It sounds more like what Carbonfiberboy said.

Back in 2012, I was coming close to the end of a stretch of 52 consecutive weeks of doing a 100 milers each week. I was also doing a double metric each month, that stretched out 18 consecutive months. I had already did two 200 milers earlier in the spring, on the second one(day of the 90 degree Boston Marathon) getting ugly nastily dehydrated and I paid for it massively the next day. May came around and I rode a double century every 6-8 days.

May 7: 211.14 miles
May 13: 203.00 miles
May 21: 227.58 miles
May 27: 224.38 miles

The first couple I was still suffering from ???dehydration???/overhydration. I think I was drinking too much, even off the bike which I believe was helping to delpete the water out of the body. I would notice in the kidney area towards the end of the ride and it would move up the the backside of the upper right arm. By the time I would get home I would have a sore neck. Each time I could eliminate the problem by drinking more water. I could get rid of the lower back pain, the upper right arm ache and the neck achiness just by drinking more water. On each of the early doubles I would slow down towards the end of the ride.

One the last of the doubles I did the exact opposite. I was totally surprised by the ride. I kept getting faster the whole way through the ride, all the way to the end. I have to climb to get home, anywhere I go. I always descend to leave home and climb to get back home, no other option. My average speed on the May 27th double kept climbing all the way home, even when I was climbing up 8-10% grade climbs. I keep trying to repeat this ride again but still haven't figured out what I was doing differently back than compared to what I'm doing now. I would think now I'm doing things much smarter, eating and drinking wise compared to what I did back than when I was drinking a gallon of water a day even when I wasn't doing any biking. Now I don't overhydrate and go to the bathroom every 45 minute to hour like I use to, even when not riding. I finally woke up and came to realize a slight yellow color to urine was fine and not a sign of dehydration(hence why I kept drinking more and more water, trying to get myself back to the totally clear urine I use to have as a kid..guess things change as you grow older)

Now I'm up to 6 consecutive weeks of double each week, all but the most recent one(thanks to a hitting a pothole at 35 mph and getting the rear wheel knocked out of true and round, beautiful flat spot on the wheel now), all the doubles have been on Wednesday. The most recent one I did last Friday.

Each of the more recent ones, until this past Friday have been quite identical. Actually week 4 saw a bit tougher time getting the heart rate initially, which kinda surprised me but I was finally able to get it up. The speed tanked like a rock overall and in the beginning as well. I was clear down at a 15.6 average for the day as a whole. Granted it did have 1100-1200 feet of extra climbing with the change of route due to road construction. Week 5 seemed even more hesitant but it did seem to go smooth until around 104 miles when I made a grocery stop and then started to ride in the head wind the rest of the day(yeah a few things that could add into the whole scenario as I was carrying extra weight on me...groceries, as well as riding into the headwind). By the end of the ride I knew I was in trouble, dehydration wise. It seems around 50 miles to the end I do have trouble with hydration, partly because so much of the ride is rolling/uphill and never much flat terrain where you can really hydrate, unless you flat out stop and pull off the road, which I don't do much anymore like I use to since I'm not stopping every 1-1.25 hours to go to the bathroom anymore. I paid for the ride overnight with beautiful cramping, even into the next day I was still cramping beautifully at times. I also noticed the next day some Achilles area trouble which didn't last long.

I left for the ride last Wednesday(23rd) and ran over the pothole about 6 miles from home, had been around that same pothole each of the past 6 weeks and missed it every time, not this time though. I turned around and headed back home and pretty much trued up the wheel and found I had also developed a flat spot on the rim. I went to the bike shop and they said, sorry sucker. I decided to ride with the wheel until it gives out on me otherwise and just except the bump-de-bump that I feel all the time as the wheel rotates.

Friday I left and went for the ride again. This time the heart rate(even back on Wednesday) seemed to respond and come up much better than it did the previous two weeks. I had to fight more so to keep the heart rate down. The speed was still way off compared to the any of the first three weeks, and this time I was back to a lot of the same route as the first three weeks, the first 50 miles and last 50 miles were going to be the same route with the middle part having some of the same miles as well, just a few different connection points. It was still going to be 800 feet extra climbing for the ride compared to the first three weeks. I would end with a 16.0 average for the day compared to 16.7(week 1), 17.3(week 2), 17.2(week 3) 15.6(week 4 & 5). Clear through 125 miles, the grocery stop this time around, I was riding fine. I made the stop and then turned into the headwind for the rest of the ride and then started to notice the drag on the pace and the heart rate. One thing I noticed for the second time, both weeks 5 & 6, was 'drowsiness' in the second half. I don't call it sleepiness. For me sleepiness sets in when the mind shuts down. Normally my mind is active(talking to myself, singing, etc) and I know I'm about to fall asleep at the steering wheel/handlebars when the mind shuts down. I typically have 10-15 minutes once the mind shuts down before I'm out. Both the past two weeks the mind hasn't shut down but I've been finding myself getting a very similar feel to sleepiness. The eyes get heavy and the whole body just likes its 'rebelling' and shutting down. Week 5 I didn't do much and it kept on happening. Week 6 it was bad enough and I knew I still had 60 miles to get home and was getting both fed up with it and a bit worried so I pulled over at a grocery store and stuffed food in the mouth that I had with me(bagels, graped, bananas) and after I left the drowsiness disappeared and wasn't a factor the rest of the day. Very strange. Until the final 35 miles I didn't have any real big climbs so I didn't really have to push it to make up any of the climbs that existed so I don't know for sure if I could have pushed the heart rate up into the 140 range or not, but it wasn't going up there free willingly like it would/was prior to the 125 mile grocery stop. In the last 35 miles there was three decent climbs. The first one I hit 147 beats, the second one I hit 143 beats. The third and final one, the biggest of the bunch, just 4-6 miles from home, where I hit the pothole going down it on Wednesday, I was riding up it after dark so I couldn't even see what the heart rate was so I don't know for sure how high I got on that climb but I have a feeling it was in the 120-130 range more than likely. I just wanted to make it up the climb and get home.

I was much better that day and didn't have much of any cramping overnight. Did lose 4 pounds during the ride compared to 6-8 each of the previous couple of weeks, was a bit surprised as I expected it to be the same. The trick has come since then. Saturday I didn't do much at all until group ride time. I left home for the 6 mile ride to the start of the group ride and noticed the Achilles tightness again and the massive drag on the body. Definitely not anywhere near recovered. Not too surprising. Mostly noticed on the group ride which normally by doing the 200 miler on Wednesday I would always have a full day, with low mileage between the 200 miler and the group ride. This time the group was the very next day. One the ride I knew the group ride was going to be fun Only two people showed up for the ride, one on a recumbent and the other(79 years old) recently switched to an ebike. Yeah, cards were stacked against me completely. I was mostly thinking about the Achilles problem and knew I wanted to avoiding climbing as much as possible and they were going to do one of the bigger % grade climbs around the area. It had a nice flat 10 mile ride out/back option which I took. I was off the back most of the time. Didn't have the heart rate monitor on since I normally don't wear one. Sunday I still was noticing the Achilles problem, a little higher this time, and I was still noticing the drag on the rest of the body as well. Again, a big grade climb route, most of rides around here have them) so I rode along the 10 mile stretch right up the bottom oft he big climb and turned around and headed back into town cruising along at 13-14 mph.

Now today, Monday, comes along and everything radically changes. Still was noticing the Achilles area but down to 25% of what it was on Saturday or Sunday. I decided to put on the heart rate monitor and was shocked by what I saw throughout the day. As I left home I could tell I felt much better, I didn't think that much better. I rode 15 miles and stopped for lunch before heading on off for the usual 2PM group ride. On the way to the group ride it was most uphill, to nice climbs. I had no trouble getting the heart rate up at all. I hit 170 going up the main hill and was shocked when I saw it. I wasn't pushing it. Normally on the 200 milers I would say I'm pushing it when I do 160-163. Today I wasn't pushing it to do 170. On the group ride at the top of the main climb we started the roughly 3 mile decent and I kept the heart rate around 160-165 the whole way down the descent, pushing it the whole way, no trouble at all. By the time I got to the end of the road and made the turn back toward town I was commenting to myself that this was the sweetest ride down that road I've ever had. Yes, part of the ride today was also part of the ride yesterday. The stretch I mentioned at the end of the last paragraph, 13-14 mph. Same stretch today after making the turn back toward town. Today with a slight head/crosswind I was riding the same stretch at 22-23 mph with the guy on the ebike way in front of me and the other guy(different one on an upright bike) behind me, so no drafting. Definitely a nice recovery that happened all at once overnight.

I would have the tendency to say my hydration may be a bit worse than before(2012) but not by much. Instead of drinking all at once(when I make the bathroom stop every 1-1.25 hours I drink an entire water bottle(1 liter pop bottle) and then fill it up after going to the bathroom), now I drink throughout the ride and still sometimes do 'superhydrating' when I get to the refill locations. I would say my eating has improved. I use to eat only at the breaks and never on the road itself. Now I eat on the road and sometimes at the stops as well. I would say my calorie intake is higher now than what it was back 2012. I am eating much more complex carbs versus sugars. One of the things I'm eating is dry oatmeal, which is pure carb and no sugar at all. With one exception(week 5, 60-65 miles from the end) I haven't eaten anything but bagels or oatmeal for carbs while on the rides. I do eat bananas and some grapes but I don't put them in the carb list, more the potassium list. Ended up with 9 bagels throughout the ride this past week and probably 1.5-2 cups of dry oatmeal, plus either 3 or 4 bananas and .5 pound of grapes. Pretty much spaced out until the last 35 miles where its big rolling hills that don't offer much time for eating in between hills unless you totally stop.

At least this week I did think I was going to hold on for the long haul...until I left form the grocery stop and realized it was over.

Still looking for the way back into that May 27, 2012 ride again. I know it can be done since I've did it before but I just can't figuring out what I'm doing differently now that is causing the circumstances to change. Yeah, this time I came from not having ridden a single 100 mile day in 15 months while before I had been 100 mile days every week and even several 150-170 miles ride prior to doing the 4 weekly 200 milers. I'm still questioning how much that has to do with it. I ride pretty much everyday since I don't own a car so I'm not getting out of shape at any time throughout the year. Yeah , possibly getting out of high mileage shape, but not out of physical shape which is why I didn't think a thing about doing the first 200 miler last month. I knew I could do and knew how to do it and pretty much what to expect, for the most part. Thought it would be interesting to see how things would turn out. Results have been pretty much what I expected with a few twists added in, like the heart rate issue and now the drowsiness issue(really strange, hard to explain even).

Always something new to learn

Carbonfiberboy 

More data is better than less data. Get a premium account at TrainingPeaks and learn how to use the Dashboard. Record every ride with the HRM and upload it to TP. Take your morning resting and morning resting standing HRs every day and record them along with your weight. Write down what you ate on each ride, too.

Keep messing with your hydration until you know just how much to drink so you pee reliably every 3 hours or a little less. Use some sort of an electrolyte supplement, consistently during each ride.

If you track everything, it shouldn't take you too long to see how to get faster, less than a year anyway. It's not random.

bikenh

It's not so much trying to go faster, it's more a matter of getting the speed to stay consistent. Right now I have did a great job at getting the bathroom breaks down. I had 85 miles before the first one and only took it cause it was readily available or I would have waited longer...couldn't have imagined doing that back in 2012 Right now the trouble with hydration/nutrition is still trying to get rid of the sodium stains. Even with minimal sodium the day before the ride and limited sodium on the ride I still had sodium stains showing up by 10:30AM and I was covered in them by the end of the ride last Friday. It's getting quite annoying to say the least. As well as trying to figure out the drowsiness issue that has appeared. I had 7 hours of sleep the evening before, the most of any of the doubles this time around and instead of having nothing I had t he condition the worst I've ever seen it. Like I said in my above post I don't really call it sleepiness as the main key symptom, mind shutting down, wasn't their.