FlashBazbo

I've owned a number of carbon wheels (including other ENVE's) over the years and never had this problem. I called ENVE Customer Service -- always great -- and was told that this is normal. It's supposedly a chemical used in the manufacturing process working its way to the surface. My six week old ENVE 3.4 Disc wheels are showing light white lines / discoloration on the rims. On the front, they are on either side of where the spokes enter the rim. On the rear, they run along the line of the spokes.


It's not attractive, but it doesn't seem to be a structural issue. It won't wash off. It's in the rim material. Have any of you experienced this with carbon wheels?

cycledogg

It looks like to me a clear coat problem. But I'm not there to actually see it. Will ENVE let you send them in for inspection?
Cheers

FlashBazbo

ENVE already gave their diagnosis from the photos. (see, my original post). It's not a superficial finish issue. According to them, this is fairly common, especially with their MTB wheels. My question is whether it is common with carbon wheels, in general.

MrCharlie

I've got it on two pairs of my enves...never gave it much thought.

rpenmanparker 

No, it is not standard. I'd be p****d considering their prices.

RShantz

I've got 10k miles on a set of Bontrager's in about 13 months use with no such issues. I use them as my everyday wheelset in all conditions. I'd be disappointed (not crazy upset) if they looked like yours even after a year or two.

Sy Reene

Would be interesting if Coach Boyd or November Dave could opine on this. "Normal"? Really?

f4rrest

I won't be buying ENVEs. How disappointing, considering the cost.

Secret Squirrel

Interesting response to your inquiry. I wouldn't be surprised for a manufacturer to give you the "it's within tolerance" patented answer. If it isn't a structural then it's surely a appearance defect that should be related to quality control. With the significant cost liability of accepting a warranty claim, it predictable that the company would state that it's normal. Either way, I haven't seen any type of prepreg carbon that cures,shows a cloudy residue in the resin and is still considered acceptable for a class A surface.

dvdslw

Looks like clear coat gone wrong! It either wasn't mixed correctly, no addition of a flex agent, and/or they didn't use an adhesion promoter prior to applying the finish coat which is standard when working with flexible painting surfaces. I agree that for the money Enve gets for their wheels I'd be looking to have them address this issue asap. Otherwise, my next set of wheels would not be Enve's. Those wheels look like their years old, not months old.

Stormsedge

Not normal. I've only had a little fade due to sun exposure on ten year old motorcycle parts...never anything like you have.


Edit at 10-13-2019...the Vision wheel set on my 2017 Domane do not have this issue. They were too new to comment on at the time of my original post.

berner

I've done a fair amount of carbon fabrication for the military. I've never seen carbon laminates show that or any other discoloration. I'm going to poke around the web for a bit to see if anything turns up.

GlennR

I've had both Eastons and Zipp and nothing like that on either.

enzo thecat

These are my Bontrager Aeolus 5 Carbon wheels. They are a year old. I wetted my finger and swiped the carbon so you can see the contrast in how much they have deteriorated cosmetically. (they used to be a uniform black like the wet spot). I'm extremely disappointed about it.

Bob Dopolina 

There are releasing agents applied to molds to make it easier to remove the rim after baking. There are water based and oil based agents. And, like most things, some are better than others.

Those agents can sometimes interact with the clear coat if the rim is not properly prep'd. That's what this looks like to me.

Clearly the cloarcoat is coming off.

It could also be that the clearcoat was too thin. There is a struggle to add enough clearcoat to protect the rim but not too much as it adds weight.

I'd go back to ENVE with your concerns. Even though it's cosmetic, they're new and very spendy.

johnnytheboy

my reynolds assault (and most i've seen) look like this.

rpenmanparker 

The carbon rims that I buy are so cheap that I wouldn't have the nerve to be offended if they had cosmetic issues. Fortunately they don't.

ebow3d

Yes, my Chinese rims still look new after almost a year. Clearly they use a better clearcoat and releasing agent.

rpenmanparker 

Clearly.

jrbharrison

I have the same issue on my 5.6ses.. after 4 months of use road use they look terrible.. pushed to get a replacement set.. even these have white marks on.. Enve are telling me its a big issue for them and they are testing 00's of compounds to get this fixed but in the mean time I'm not to worry as they are covered under warranty. I'm awaiting clarification to make sure they pay for any rebuild cost.. Have no idea why a such a desirable brand puts product into the market where they know they have a problem.. Interesting to read about some of the history of Enve which nearly went under a decade ago and it was admitted that half of the product they produced did not meet standards.. have a new factory now.. but clearly still issues.. If I did it again I'd be having ZIPP..

FlashBazbo

Not me. ZIPP has had persistent hub issues for years. They've even come out with subsequent models of hub -- same issues. I would rather have a cosmetic issue than a functional one.

Having said that . . . since this thread has been raised from the crypt, I can give an update. My ENVE's still look exactly as they did in my photos. There's still no flaking. Nothing unstable. (Neither I nor ENVE ever thought it was a clearcoat issue -- and it's not.) And the wheels are working great.

But I'm a little troubled by ENVE's advocacy of hookless rims on new products. As with pressfit bottom brackets, this is another design change purely to save the manufacturer money. Sacrificing customer functionality for cost savings at the plant. No doubt it will work fine for a lot of people, but it obviously leaves some customers holding the bag.

GlennR

23,000+ miles on my 303s. I did sent the front back for the hub recall 2 years ago. Not a single problem and they are dead true and never needed to be touched.

Woiks for me.

colnago62

I was not super happy with my Zipp wheelsets. The hub recall and the fact that the aluminum free hub bodies did not last for me, made me switch out the hubs.

Carbonfiberboy 

I'm in the marine industry and have used a lot of epoxies and coatings. The issue with epoxy resin out in the sunlight is that UV degrades its surface, usually turning it a milky gray. This is ugly, but isn't a structural issue unless the laminate is extremely thin, which rims are not. The solution is a UV resistant coating. Paint works best, especially polyurethane. Clear coat is next best. The polyurethane clear coatings I've used have been the most successful. Painting, including clear coating, is 90% perfect prep, meaning that that's also where the costs are.

So the simplest thing to do is to sand the surface lightly with 220, then 320, removing all the clear coat, clean with appropriate alcohol solvent, and shoot with black semi-gloss poly. Helps if you're a pro spray painter. A body shop could do it.

The paint peeled really badly on my carbon Trek, and their free frame repaint did the same, undoubtedly because of cheap, lousy prep. I just sanded all the paint off and now coat it with 3M 303 protectant. At least I can see the surface of the laminate and know what I'm looking at. I wouldn't use that stuff on a rim with a brake track though.

If you're worried about whether those lines are in the coating or the epoxy, just sand through the clear coat in a spot with 320 or 400 and wet that spot. Simple. But almost certainly those are cracks in the coating. I've never seen that on one of our boats, so I don't know what they did, but you can bet cost had something to do with it.

Along with this, one of the things bike manufacturers have do deal with is weight. Coatings add weight, Thicker, more durable coatings add more weight, duh. So they want to put on the thinnest stuff they can to cut the advertised weight.

531Aussie

It bemuses that a 'hi-techy' company such as Zipp has so many hub problems. I've had some Token C50 wheels for over 10 years, and the cheapo, re-badged American Classic hubs on them have never missed a beat. They still run very smoothly, especially the front (understandably), even though the front is the Micro model with the small cartridge bearings that some "expert" on a forum said only last 3,000km -- what a joke. Ha.