hobkirk

How much time is good for recovery? I've quickly ramped up from nothing to pretty active without injury by being lucky and maybe by pacing my activities. I'm 64 and 45# overweight. But as I get more fit I feel I should start to overlap my cycling and my gym. I'd really appreciate any advice you're willing to give.

This is my current schedule:

1. I go to the gym Mon/Wed/Fri and take the rest of the day off. 20 minutes cardio, 3 sets of reps fro the full circuit, 10 minutes of stretching. I leave seriously tired.
2. I do a spinning class on Thursday and take the rest of the day off - it seems like this is a serious "ride". Lasting the hour takes serious effort.
3. I've started taking long rides on Sat/Sun/Tues - this week it's been 38 miles/2:50, 23 miles/1:50, 33 miles/2:30. NOTE: This is a huge improvement - week 1 was 30 miles total, week 2 was 60 miles.

This is very new to me - I've been going to the gym for 2 months and cycling 3 weeks. I don't have a heart rate monitor (yet) - heck, I don't have my new bike yet (I'm riding a 35 year old road bike). I don't have a training plan - I just ride long and try to focus on improving my ability to climb hills without crashing my thighs.

1. How long does it take a novice to recover from a strenuous ride? The unplanned Sunday 23 miles was too much after the very tiring 38 on Saturday (my previous longest rides were 15 and 22 on Monday [I did gym on Sunday] and Tuesday).
2. Is it reasonable to ride on gym days?
3. Should I start to make some rides hard and some easy?
4. Anything else?

Thanks

late

First, you should increase mileage about 10% a week. You did 100%, which is terrific and perfectly OK to
start. But I strongly suggest you limit yourself to adding about 10 miles a week for a while.

Second. I suggest a big ride day. For us, it's Saturday. Take Sunday off, at the most go for a walk.

Third, filling out the week might be Mon/Wed cardio and Tue/Thur spin or ride.

Lastly...

if that works for you, great. But there are options you might want to consider. Cycling requires a strong core, but it doesn't
make your core stronger. I suggest doing some crunches and planks (look at the Bird Dog plank at PerformanceU on Youtube) for your
core.

Cycling works the front of your legs more than the back. I need to do exercises that strengthen the hamstrings and butt.
It's a good idea for a lot of people, IMHO. Deadlifts (learn how to do them precisely right, every time) help balance your lower
body strength (there are other exercises, as well).

hobkirk

Late -

"Facts have a well-known liberal bias." - I love it!

Thanks for the suggestions. Unless I am missing the point, I think I've got the core covered. The circuit of strength machines at the gym are completely aimed at strengthening all the muscle groups. And the areas you mention are specifically covered - leg curls at 150#, leg press at 390# - as well as what I think of as core areas - abs, back, and hips.

I used to run sub 3-hour marathons around age 40 (I beat the first woman twice) but I think my core may be the strongest it's been since college 45 years ago. I find the gym painful, but I find the results very impressive.

I like the idea of a big ride on Saturday and taking Sunday off, but I've sampled the local club rides by Charles River Wheelmen and Nashoba Valley Peddlers and they have their best rides on the weekend. The chances are I will ride both Saturday and Sunday over the next few months as long as the weather is OK.

late

Leg presses strain the knees some. The basics don't change, squats and deadlifts (esp deadlifts for a cyclist) offer
a lot more than leg presses.

I find the gym to be fun. When you say painful, do you mean the burn from supersets?
Try Ascending Pyramids. An example might be 2@40, 4@80, 6@100
You can change the reps, low resp focus on power, higher reps serve a number of purposes.
Sounds like you need a high rep phase, are you familiar with periodisation?
You don't need anything fancy, just once a month have a week where you drop the weight
to about 60% max and do high rep sets.

If you ride weekends, take Monday off. Your body needs some recovery time.
Switch over to Tue/Thur gym and Wed/Fri aerobic exercise

You may not have a plan, but you are doing great, and are way more fit than I am.

mrardo

I am 61 and on Tuesday I rode 50 miles in the morning then went to the gym from 1 to 5:30 so yes it is possible.
The advise to increase 10% is good. Listen to your body and rest when your tired. Recovery time varies on how you feel and how hard the ride was short rides can be harder than long rides.
Bike riding requires cardio-vascular fitness, core strength and flexability. The gym builds muscle which doesn't help your riding much and makes hill climbing harder.
As an older athlete you have to be careful not to overtrain. One thing too much can cause injury. Consistant slow increases paying attention to what your body is saying will keep you out of trouble.
Do short rides and easy rides during the week. You have to work harder than the young guys but luckily thats not hard to do.

hobkirk

I should have known you'd speak Greek! Or maybe it's me talking a foreign language. I don't even know if "leg press" is the correct wording - I press a seat on a slide up a ramp, with my knees at 90 degrees in the starting position. I am not familiar with "supersets," "Ascending Pyramids," or "periodisation."

Gym isn't fun. The final minutes on the elliptical strider are painful - my thighs hurt. My legs/arms/back/etc. feel almost strained after every exercise on the various machines - I often literally cannot do one more rep. But at this time I am focused on building muscle quickly.

4 1/2 hours in the gym - that's impressive. 50 miles is pretty impressive too. I plan to work my way up to 100 miles but I don't have any plans for 4-hour gym sessions. But who knows?

I am very conscious of over-training. My body takes a lot longer to recover than it used to. I've been surprised at how easy it is to add miles, but I don't push the pace hard - my 3 longest rides averaged 13 MPH overall. And that seems fine while I build a base.

chasm54

Lots of coaches say that the problem with the way most people train is that they do so at pretty much the same level of intensity all the time. They make the easy sessions too hard, and the hard sessions too easy. So taking your longer "base" rides at a steady pace is highly recommended, and as you get fitter you should avoid the temptation to go too hard. Extended periods of riding in HR zones 2 and 3 remain a good idea. But they need to be mixed up with some shorter rides at high intensity, preferably intervals. Your spinning class is probably fulfilling some of this requirement - on the road I'd suggest an hour or so in rolling terrain, pushing it quite hard up the hills and then recovering - excellent interval training. But keep these intense rides down to an hour or so or you'll just exhaust yourself and overtrain. As you've already found, further is much easier than faster.

Listen to your body. It'll tell you if you're doing too much. If you want an easy guide to whether you're overtraining, get used to taking your pulse when you wake in the morning. A raised waking HR is a good indication that you need to rest or back off for a while.

late

Yeah, that sliding ramp thing sounds like a Hack Squat machine. If you use it, I suggest doing the upper 1/2 of the exercise.
https://www.ehow.com/video_2361479_us...chine-gym.html
Squats and deadlifts (esp straight leg deadlifts for cyclists) are much better exercises.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Performa...11/U1jC1sWTUFc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF69K6awJh8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYZjH...eature=related

Supersets are very effective. The number of reps are 12-10-8-6 while increasing the weight from 50to60to70to80% of max effort.
Those are approximate numbers, you can get scientific about it, but you don't need to.

Ascending Pyramids increase weight while you are also increasing reps. I like these the best.Start easy and increase weight and the number of times you do push it in a series of steps. You don't want to go over 12 to 14 reps in a set.

The gym shouldn't hurt. Muscle burn, yes. Try a gentle warmup on the treadmill. Then you can either do some easy exercises to warm
up the specific muscles or do Ascending Pyramids.

Lastly, and you won't like this, you need to take a few days off. One of the best books on this is New Rules of Lifting. In their program after the beginning phase you take a whole week off. It's needed. One mistake almost everyone makes is doing too much too fast while at the same time
not allowing enough recovery time. The result is what you'd expect, burnout.

https://www.amazon.com/New-Rules-Lift.../dp/1583332944

Pat

Really, remember one size does not fit all. As for days off, for years I rode each and every day nearly without fail. If I was a bit beaten up, I would just ride a bit slower to recover. Now some people recover faster than others. I think I might be in the fast recovery camp.

Switching from one form of exercise to another is "cross training". Cross training allows one to train more than if you were just doing a single activity.

Another thing I have found that light exercise increases my recovery rate markedly. I go on a multiday ride every spring. The rides can get a bit intense. I camp with a group and socializing requires quite a bit of walking. The walking around in the campground gets me pretty near 100% recovered by the next morning.

Carbonfiberboy 

I'm just a little older than you. I find gym sessions of over about 40 minutes to be counterproductive - the time would be better spent cycling. Remember that any energy spent in the gym is energy not spent cycling. I try to limit my gym time to 20 minutes. Cycling the same day is fine as long as you cycle first, lift after. Lifting after spin class is especially good, believe it or not. Working out this way won't massively increase the amount you can lift, but it will increase your speed on the bike.

tadawdy

I second CFB: I'd keep any gym work under an hour and keep it cycling-specific. Leg press is not very cycling-specific. 1-leg movements, like weighted step-ups, are more applicable.

I have 30 or 60 minute sessions with my clients. For a fit individual, you can fill an hour with a leg-heavy full-body workout, with the upper-body essentially treated as part of the core (which it is, on a bike). You would also be surprised with what you can do in a half hour.

hobkirk

I'm the original poster. The feedback has been good, but some of it confuses me. Let me frame this issue so it is strictly focused on my gym workouts. FWIW, I am cycling 4 days a week and have ramped up from zero miles/week to 125 miles/week in 3 weeks. I climb slowly (240#). My longest ride was 45.

CARDIO - I use an elliptical strider with arm levers. I used to be a marathon runner but my knees can't take running any more. It seems like it is good for my health to diversify my activities, so I have not been using the stationary cycle. The elliptical strider works me pretty hard - at 75 strides/minute my heart beat goes up to 135 after ten minutes and my thighs burn. Some days, especially if I had a tough bike ride the previous day, I cannot last the whole 20 minutes (my target). I am pouring sweat and walking away is a little difficult because I am spent. Sound right to you?

MUSCLES - My goal is good health, not just better cycling, even though cycling is a serious focus. I go through the complete circuit (all 12 machines), exercising all the muscle groups. I want to build muscle fast, so I set the weights so I can barely do 5-8 reps. Each of my 3 sets wipes me out - I am breathing hard. Each set takes about 15 minutes. I expect that I will probably be slow to increase the weights in the future and work toward more reps and less effort as I get stronger (I've been doing this for 2 months so far). And eventually I imagine I will start using free weights in place of the circuit machines. Building muscle is supposed to improve health for older people. Already I can do a better job opening a stuck pickle jar. And the intensity of the workout makes a bike ride seem easier by comparison - on a ride I get some recovery time.

In case it makes a difference, the exercises are (in order) leg press @ 390, leg extension @ 170, leg curl @ 150, hip rotation @ 163, chess press @ 170, fly @ 170, pull down @ 170, OH press @ 110, arm extension (triceps) @ 110, arm curls @ 110, back extension @ 250, and abs push @ 170.

I've done some reading and I talked to a trainer (cyclist) at the gym about this for an hour. But as I've gotten older I've learned that there is much more to learn. Do you find any problems?

STRETCH - Standing erect, I bend forward, backward, left, right, and twist left and right. I hoist my heel up to a waist-high bench and stretch my each hamstring, then I stretch each Achilles tendon. I hold each for 15-30 seconds. Then I repeat. Eleven minutes. Does this sound good?

------------------

I like to jump into things, often with less caution than is prudent. My body recovers more slowly now, so I am trying very hard to avoid overuse injuries. So far it has worked. But a significant part of that success has resulted from my asking questions. Thank you for your help.

tadawdy

All the more reason to be using free weights. Sitting on a machine is not a functional workout. For the very narrow focus of building muscle, machines do work, but you could accomplish that and more with free weights.

It is. It's also beneficial to challenge your balance, which sitting on a machine does not. Things like squats, lunges, deadlifts all have direct real-world uses. Good for cycling, too.

8 to 12 is a more typical range to consistently use. The 5-8 range is useful, but better overall conditioning can be achieved with a more moderate set length. Or, you could get really fancy and do one set each of 5, 10, and 15 reps. There are a ton of ways to vary your workouts, which is the most important thing, long-term.

The way I'm picturing this could compromise the spinal health of an older person.

ericm979

It takes as long as it takes. The answer depends on what "strenuous" is and how fit you are. You have to listen to your body. That will mean going for rides and finding out that you're not recovered. You have to make mistakes in order to learn. You'll probably need an easy/off day after a hard three hour ride.


If your goal is to be a better cyclist (what does that mean? Faster, longer distances, better climber?) then you should ride more and do less other stuff. I'd cut out the cardio at the gym except as a warmup for weight lifting. It's not training you to be a better cyclist. Use that energy to ride more.

Since you just started riding don't worry too much about "training". Any riding you do now will make you faster and/or more fit for longer distances. Save training for when you have a goal, like finishing a half century or whatever.

fishermba2004

Keep in mind that 80-90% of the strength gains you'll make in the first 10-12 weeks of lifting are neurological and new from new muscle. Recall old women who lift cars when family members are trapped under them. See here for the lazy man's summary


I would stay away from the < 10 rep range until you've been lifting for a few months and your joints and golgi tendons are accustomed to the working with the weights.

Interestingly enough, one of the biggest gains you get from weight lifting is improved firing of neurons in the muscles which translates into increased strength without adding any new muscle

As an aside, for humans other than adolescent males, you'll only have enough testosterone to lift for around an hour. After that time, you'll have a lot less drive to lift and the less productive time in the gym will slow your recovery.

chasm54

You're right that resistance exercise such as weight-training is highly recommended for us older people: it helps us retain muscle mass and, maybe even more important, bone density. But why do you want to "build muscle fast"? I had formed the impression that your primary goal was to lose weight, and higher numbers of reps with rather less weight would be more consistent with that aim. And you'd still be getting stronger, with less risk of injury. I absolutely agree with fishermba that you'd be wiser to save the big weight, few reps routines for a later date when your muscles and tendons have adapted further.

And incidentally, judging by the weights you're using I'd bet there's still plenty of muscle under there. You just can't see as much of it as you'd like to.

hobkirk

"Build muscle fast" = just because! I'm an old, weak fart and I wish I didn't need to defer as much to my 24 year old son in matters of strength when we're doing projects - how's that for a warped goal! I actually would like to have more muscle, but it's not a big deal. I just tend to dive into things with intensity - if I am going to do it, I want to do it well.

I plan to dial it back - less weight, more reps. Yesterday one of my knees felt slightly unhappy from the leg extensions, I felt like I had thunder thighs all day long, and I don't want to start skipping the gym because I dread it.

I also am biking more. 57 miles solo today, New England rolling hills, 14.2 MPH average despite about 8 stops to adjust the saddle.

Thanks for all the observations and advice.

chasm54

Seriously good idea. The only reason I have dodgy knees is using weights too heavy for me years ago, causing injury. The macho foolishness of youth. Fortunately they're still OK for cycling, but I can no longer longer do full squats with any serious weight. If your knees are telling you to take it easier, listen to tthem

late

Leg extensions are hard on the knees. If you like the machine, this is how you use it....
Sit on the machine, lift the weight with both legs. Remove a leg. You want to move the leg between
60 degrees and 80 degrees. Place your hand just above the knee, a bit to the inside. The teardrop shaped
muscle there is the vastus medialus, and that's all that machine is good for.

If you want to really improve your gym workout, read New Rules of Lifting for Women
https://www.amazon.com/New-Rules-Lift...7306397&sr=1-1

and this book is terrific for keeping you out of trouble
https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-Tell-...7306517&sr=1-2

Pman

+1 On the New Rules of Lifting or New Rules of Lifting for Women.

hobkirk

Would an avatar showing I'm an old guy change the book recommendation? Good reviews on Amazon.

I decided to try dropping my gym sessions to twice a week. I did the gym on Monday and then my longest ride ever Tuesday (57 miles in 4 hours, 3 weeks exactly after my first ride - I am astonished [and my butt hurts!]). So today I did the circuits after spin class. I lowered most of the weights one notch and did 9-12 reps. Spin class wipes me out, but the "lifting" was much less arduous. Still learning. And losing (7# so far).

chasm54

You're doing great. 57 miles at close to 15mph, three weeks in, is impressive. Lose the other 38 lbs, you'll be a monster.

late

SORRY!
I have the New Rules, and I like it. I also have decades of bad habits in the gym, but that's a different story, it's a good program.
To go back to an earlier discussion, I use both machines and free weights AND rubber bands. Some machines are either bad, or have to be used in limited ways. But some are great.

I did squats today, I used a squat machine as part of my warmup, and then did the rest with free weight. Not that the weight is impressive, I did squats, deadlifts and straight leg deadlifts at 100 pounds. Part of my warmup is a 1/3 squat, where I do the bottom 1/3, all I do is come out of the hole. I forget how much weight, doesn't matter. Later I did the squat machine on the upper 1/3 with 90 pounds( the shoulder thing provides about 50 pounds of resistance).

I am ramping the weight up slowly because I am killing myself on the weekend rides and the tire drag. I am hoping to get those more under control, so I can start working my way up faster.

There's lot of things to try, fool arond with. But do work in some recovery time.

mrardo

I agree with the idea of lighter weight and more reps. I do 4 sets of 25 leg presses at 260 lbs and it seems to help climbing and sprinting quite a bit. I.m trying to do 4 sets of 25 on most of my lifting but I'm there on my leg work. I don't want big muscles just strong with endurance for cycling. I think it should help avoid injury.

Lenkearney

I am 59 and have been wondering if I am too old to gain strength and endurance on a bike. These posts have been reassuring.

Thanks, Len