cooleric1234

First of all, I'm 6'5" with a 36" cycling inseam (no shoes). I was all set to buy a bike online recently when I started paying attention to the geometry. I noticed that my current road bike (64 cm and too big for me) has a 72.5 degree seat tube angle. Even then my saddle is fairly far back in the rails in order to get my knee over the pedal spindle (KOPS) with 175 mm cranks. This bike I was looking at is 73.5 degrees and someone commented that that would be terrible for me, and difficult to meet KOPS.

Since then I have paid attention to bike geometries. Usually the larger the bike the shallower the seat tube angle, but not always. I have since seen some very reputable brands that have steep angles in road bikes for the largest size (BMC is one example, PedalForce is another).

Am I missing something? Is there a way to make this work? There must be, or else how do these companies sell the largest size bikes? I know triathlon bikes have steeper angles, do taller people just ignore the KOPS advice and place their knees further forward? Could I make this work somehow?

deep_sky

Does not meeting KOPS cause pain or other issues? I might not be tall, but I tend to go with what actually works, rather than what various formulas tell me what should work. I have very long femurs for someone of my height/inseam, and a lot of the formulas and rules of thumb that govern fit do not work for me because my leg articulates differently than someone who has more "standard" physiology.

cooleric1234

I don't know if not meeting KOPS causes any issues, I've never tried it! I should mention one other thing. Perhaps an obvious response is to get longer crankarms than 175 since I'm so tall. That may be worthwhile, but there are a few things to consider:

1. I suffer from iliotibial band syndrome. It hasn't bothered me on the bike, only hiking, but I hear cycling can exacerbate the issue.
2. The only way to know if a longer crankarm works is to try it. Unfortunately in this case the whole geometry of the bike depends on it. I'm not sure it's worth the risk.
3. Again, the only way to know if a longer crankarm works is to try it. Unfortunately that's an expensive experiment (buying a new crankset just to try it).
4. 175 mm cranks work. Perhaps I could get better performance by going longer but if it ain't broke... There is absolutely no way I'm spending $400 on a 210 mm crankset (not to mention a new frame that would fit that). The highest I'd go is an SRAM Apex or Rival 180 mm crankset.

CliftonGK1

You can get a long setback seatpost:
Thompson Elite setback
Velo Orange Grand Cru long setback
Nitto Wayback

I'm sure there are others.

Mazama

I was looking back at my order form. It says: 72.

I have a Thomson Elite, but it is not a setback model.

cooleric1234

Thanks. That is an option. Those Thomson's are nice but I will comment that the Thomson setbacks actually have very little setback (16 mm as opposed to 25 mm on most seatposts). That would help me achieve KOPS, but if I have to do that I wonder if the frame is just a poor fit for me. I would be seated way back over the rear wheel in that case and I would think weight distribution and handling would be affected.

It all might be a moot point. I just went to the pedal force site and entered my dimensions. It recommended a seat tube angle of 73.3 degrees. Huh? Then I went out to my road bike and double checked and I wasn't meeting KOPS like I had thought, I'm probably a good inch behind it. I'll see how it feels when I change it.

socalrider

The VO Seatpost has 30mm of setback..

https://www.velo-orange.com/vogrcrusepol.html

cooleric1234

The FSA K-Force Lite has up to 40 mm of setback as well.

jbman100

Before you go spending a ton of money on new cranks, tweak your seat and bar position. I'm as tall as you, same inseam and also ride a 64cm bike with 175 length cranks and 72.5 seat tube angle. (are you my twin? lol). When I first started riding I was having some knee issues but after getting my seat adjustment set just right it went away.


What bike are you on now and what bike are you thinking of getting?

mkadam68

KOPS is the starting point. After that, it's up to you and what works/feels comfortable/doesn't cause pain.

Larger bikes generally have shallower ST/HT angles in order to lengthen the top tube for the taller rider. Just having a longer seat tube won't lengthen the TT enough.

sstorkel

KOPS was a popular myth back in the 1970s and '80s. Thoughts on fitting have evolved quite a bit since then. I wouldn't get too hung up on KOPS. I would, however, get a professional bike fitter to look at your current fit and provide advice on the best geometry for a new bike. A good fitter should be able to give you advice on frame size (specifically: top tube length), crank length, seat post setback, etc.

cooleric1234

I did get a bike fit at the bike shop, but it was only the Quick Fit. Should I go for something better? Seems odd to do as I'm not into racing or anything that serious. My friend got one of those 3D sensor fits but it was like $300.

Right now I have the Moto Vent Noir in size 64 cm. It's too big for me though, I found I had to decrease the stem length to a 90 mm stem to prevent lower back pain. I was thinking of getting the Ti Heat. That's the one with the 73.5 degree seat tube angle whereas my current bike is 72.5 degrees. I like the idea of Titanium, but now I'm leaning towards a Neuvation F100 due to the customizability. I want a kind of frankenbike (Red shifters, Rival crank, mid-cage rival with 11-32 cassette, Rival brakes).

jbman100

You may want to try an adjustable stem to see if you can raise your bars a bit. I had to do that to erase my lower back pain. If your seat is as high as mine is and your bars are as low as the picture of your bike shows then you may be leaned over/stretched out too far. They also make an adapter that allows you to add height to your steerer. Most people don't like them. I have one as well and I have had no problem with it at all.

I checked out ITBS here : https://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliotibial_band_syndrome#Causes

There are a couple of things related to cycling that you might, depending on how you ride, be able to change/adjust as well.

sstorkel

Fit isn't about racing. It's about being efficient and comfortable on your bike. I think it's worth having done at least once. Make sure the fitter gives you a summary of all the measurements and dimensions they come up with. I'm not convinced you need video cameras or a "3D fit". The one I did cost around $150 and took about 1.5 hours. The fitter made some minor changes to my setup and suggested I needed a narrower handlebar. My fit was pretty good to start with, but the changes made me noticeably more comfortable on the bike...

Red shifters probably aren't worth the price premium over Force or Rival; and I say that owning a Red-equipped bike. I'd make sure that the Rival rear derailleur is compatible with an 11-32 cassette before buying. As of 2010, it wasn't but I'm not sure what changes they've made for 2011...

cooleric1234

Thanks for the comments. That's kind of what I thought I was doing with the fit I got, but maybe another level of detail would be worth it?

I'm interested in your comment about Red shifters. I was probably going to get them through Neuvation as the upgrade cost is only $150 over Rival. I've read here and elsewhere that it's quite nice having the Zero Loss on the rear shifter, have you tried both and found it wasn't worth the extra?

This is the new Rival mid-cage derailleur, same capacity as Apex. There are short and mid versions, I'd like to get the mid so I can run 11-32. I hope to do the Copper Triangle next year and the extra gears will come in quite handy.

cooleric1234

I've attached my current bike setup. When I got the bike fit they asked about aggressive or casual, I said to go more on the casual side. I asked about the drop but he wasn't too worried about it. I've read that taller guys are usually comfortable with more saddle to bar drop than average. I've found that to be my experience. I bought a stem that was longer but with crazy rise to it so the handlebars were the same distance out but another couple of inches higher. It was more comfortable to be in the drops but I didn't really notice a difference in comfort over long rides on the hoods. The drop right now is about 2.75 inches. Again, I don't race but I like to go as fast as I can with comfort not being a restriction. I hated the upright feeling of my hybrid.

It seems to me that more saddle to bar drop is mostly a fact of life with larger frames. Something about the way they're designed. I imagine that can be reduced with a Roubaix type geometry. I might test ride one to see if I really like it. DSC01661..jpg

jbman100

BTW Where do you do most of your riding. I'm usually all over the place but can be found almost daily riding the Cherry Creek Bike path from Cherry Creek Rec to downtown and back on my daily commute.

I've got my bars higher than yours. If I can't reach the flat part of the bars without leaning over more than a couple on inches, then I just can't get comfortable on the bike.

cooleric1234

That's a nice path. A lot of traffic but it's nice to be able to get downtown that way.

Honestly, most of my riding is probably in conjunction with my commute. From just over the freeway of Southlands mall up around Buckley. Sometimes I go through Cherry Creek on the way home if I want a longer ride. I haven't got up in the mountains this year like I did the last couple years. I usually like to do Lookout a few times and Deer Creek Canyon. Next year I suppose. I went on a couple longer rides on the trails through Parker, the C-470, and up through Foxfield.

jbman100

WOW We must be close. I'm at Chenango and Himalaya but don't ride from there because the roads are just too damed busy. I either go in at Parker and Quincy or at Parker and Orchard and take the bike path all the way downtown. I have yet to do Lookout on anything but my car or motorcycle.

cooleric1234

What a small world. I'm about 2.5 miles from you, just off Versailles. I usually take Chenango in the shoulder until where it starts to bend, then I go down Grand Avenue, through the little bike/foot path only section and stay on Grand until Telluride south. Then I take Telluride all the way to Orchard, hop briefly on the sidewalk and cross the street at Buckley. From there you're at the bike path that takes you to Cherry Creek.

sstorkel

Honestly, I think Zero Loss is an incremental improvement in shifting, especially for the rear derailleur. SRAM's shorter lever throw and 1:1 actuation are the biggest difference between their components and Shimano's. Even without Zero Loss, Rival will feel like it shifts very fast if you compare it to Shimano. If you ride Rival back-to-back with Red, you might notice that Red shifts fractionally faster... or you might not.

I bought Red levers because, at the time, they were the only ones with reach adjustment.

Sounds like a good plan. With a compact crank (50/34), I find that 11-28 is about all I need to get over most hills but it's always nice to have 11-32 as an option.

cooleric1234

Awesome, thanks for the feedback. It's sometimes hard to discern those picky people who need the best of everything from those changes that are really significant. Of course the thing to do would be to try them out, but I can't in good conscience go test ride a Red equipped bike when I know there is no way I'd buy it. I am used to Shimano and I'm sure Rival will be sufficient. Speaking of picky people though, I will say with Tiagra I get annoyed with the amount I have to push the lever before it starts to engage. Mostly because I've made it a subconscious habit to push the levers in until I feel resistance even when I'm not shifting, kind of like people tap their fingers or things like that. I know, OCD at its best :-) That's part of the reason I wanted Zero Loss.

That's the plan with the cassette. I'll also buy an 11-28 and hopefully use that most of the time, but having the bailout option of 11-32 for long and/or steep rides would be nice. Of course, that's if I get the Neuvation, only Apex level stuff is usually spec'ed like that now.

deep_sky

++
I got a steal of a deal at 40 bucks for what amounted to 3 hours worth of fitting over two sessions (second one was to fit the suggested new parts to the bike). The fitter did have to bust out the video camera for a side view while pedaling. I got a narrower handlebar with a shallower reach and drop, a new stem, and new saddle. Lot of things to change, but good lord it has made such a HUGE difference in comfort and power. I have disproportionately long femurs, and it makes a lot of the formulas and truisms useless since my leg articulates differently. A bit of camera analysis helped with dialing in things. I obviously do not need the BG fit that takes 4 hours and costs 250 bucks, but if you are out of standard, cameras can help if the option exists.

Maybe stock, but it't not difficult to level out the bar and saddle with some aftermarket parts. The longer head tube that Roubaix-type bikes have does make a difference, but a steerer extension can level things out if that's what's needed for comfort.

sstorkel

Imagine that you were riding a Tiagra bike, but the total travel of the levers was reduced by 50%. Because the total travel of the lever decreases, the amount of room for slop also decreases. I'd suggest test-riding a bike with Apex or Rival to see how you like their shifters. If you feel like there's too much slop in the shifting system, then by all means upgrade to Red. There's absolutely no slop there...

cooleric1234

That's helpful, thanks. I really just need to start test-riding. I'm buying next year but it's time to start getting an idea of what I like.