Gladius

Reading through the other thread about the guy who wants to be able to compete in crits made me think to ask for some advice.

During the season, I ride twice a week with two different groups, and am in the "faster B" group. The A group has mostly younger guys (I'm 48 and have never raced), some of them Cat 3s/4s. I cannot stay with them for more than a few minutes - we warm up for the first 10 minutes and then they're off, and I can only hang for a few minutes until I'm dropped. To be clear, I'm not even taking pulls, I am just trying to draft and hang on but can't their pace for more than a few minutes and I'm way over threshold.

I've ridden with these two groups for the last 3 years. The first two years I felt like I was getting faster and could stay with them longer (but eventually would fall off before the first half of the ride). Last year I really felt like I plateaued and wasn't getting any faster and not making any gains, and possibly getting slower. So my goal would be to be able to stay (or almost stay with) the A groups for most of the ride. The two rides are both around 25-30 miles, in the evenings, on Tues and Thurs. The Tuesday ride rotates through 5 routes, some with more or less climbing; while the Thursday route is the same 25 miles week in and week out, mostly flat with some rollers.

I typically also do a Saturday ride with a club (some of the same guys) but these rides will be 45-70 miles and we'll vary between flatter routes and routes with a good amount of climbing (this is all just outside of Boulder, CO). I'd call these Tempo rides. Most of the A group guys aren't on this ride, and I'd say I'm one of the stronger guys on this ride.

I'll usually try to do one other slower ride during the week, either by myself during a lunch hour (~20 miles) or on Sunday with a buddy where we may do a longer 2-3 hour ride, more of an Endurance ride. Sometimes I'll throw in another ride during the week if the stars align.

My goals are twofold: 1) Get to the point where I am able to stay with the A groups on Tuesdays/Thursdays; and 2) be able to do Ride the Rockies without being completely exhausted at the end of each day (6 consecutive ~80 mile days with a lot of climbing - I did RtR two years ago, along with the Triple Bypass, and was really tired by the end of each day).

Given that I want to continue to do the three group rides that I currently do, what's a good plan to improve my ability to stay with them?

69chevy

Just keep riding. Why turn it in to a quest to be in a certain group?

Gladius

Anyone with any actual advice to achieve my goals?

rms13

Get a coach. Develop a legitimate training plan/schedule. Ride more. Ride more with faster guys

therhodeo

Its really easy given the ride schedule you're doing to burn yourself out on each ride and just recover by the next ride without ever improving. How much are you riding over the winters?

spdracr39

As said above you can't really group ride and train at the same time unless the whole group is following the same training schedule. Ride with the group once a week and on your other rides implement a training schedule that will achieve your goals. There is plenty of training information online or you could spring for a coach to design a plan for you. It will include zone two riding ( alot ) and then turn into High intensity intervals. Sounds to me like you first step is to work on your endurance and base training with the Zone 2 rides.

datlas 

How much are you really willing to suffer??

I am NOT kidding when I ask that.

If you are really motivated to train and suffer, get a coach and a power meter. You may be able to do it. But the training required might also take a lot of the "fun" out of riding.

mvnsnd

This is just my humble opinion:
You're riding enough, but probably not the right mix of intensity and rest to work up to the fast group. Seems like you're doing the tues/thurs group ride, a sat ride and one more casual ride. Look at changing your saturday ride to a training ride, not just tempo. Find a way to add some power intervals saturday to build your leg strength as I think you probably already have the endurance part down. I would look at 1-5 min at power over your threshold followed by up to 5 min rest several times. However, remember that rest is as important as high intensity in doing intervals.
Also just keep pushing yourself at the A group. It's going to be very hard. And when you've dropped off the group, don't stop the intensity. Use the course to work on going hard for a long time.

PepeM

How does this happen? Is it on an uphill where they just hammer away? Or is it flat and they just increase the pace to something you simply can't sustain? Why and how you are being dropped will probably give you a clue on what you need to work. If it is a steady pace that you simply can't sustain, then some threshold work will probably be helpful. If they hammer for a few minutes to get rid of the deadwood, then you probably will need to work on your Vo2max efforts to be able to survive the high intensity long enough until the pace becomes more manageable. There is also the whole 'tactics' thing. Are you in the middle of the pack holding someone's wheel closely, or are you constantly dangling from the back? Particularly important during turns and changing terrain.

merlinextraligh

Normally riding with the fast group and just trying to hang longer will make you faster. However, if you're only hanging for a few minutes you're not getting much intense work.

I'd drop 2 of the 3 group rides, and replace those with intervals. First, I'd work on raising threshold, so intervals, 10 to 20 minutes long at FTP. After a few weeks of those, then I'd work on speed with shorter intervals, such as one minute on, one minute off, 2 sets of 5.

caloso

I would target the Tuesday ride. You'll want to be fresh, so on Sunday maybe just an active recovery ride. That means an hour of just turning the pedals super easy. Don't be concerned if little old ladies on beach cruisers pass you; you just want to be keeping things loose. Monday off day.

On Tuesday, think about where you tend to get dropped. Is it on a hill? If so, it's worth it to burn a match to get up towards the front, or even off the front, of the group as you hit the base of the climb. Then climb your climb. Be steady and allow the group to filter around you as you drift towards the back. Hopefully, you'll run out of hill before you run out of group, then you attach and keep going. Repeat as necessary.

If you get dropped in a crosswind or tailwind, you need to focus on shelter. You may already do this, but take note of flags and trees, and focus on staying out of the wind as much as possible. Think of the route as it relates to the wind and think about the places where you need to be up near the front. Places where the route goes from a tailwind to a crosswind are really dangerous. In the tailwind, there's less benefit to drafting and the big horses can really ramp it up while weaker riders struggle to hold on. Then if the road turns and now it's a crosswind, those riders at the back who're already gassed are now fully exposed to the crosswind and they get popped.

Take a look at the riders on this ride. There are guys who always drive the pace, there are guys who always are in danger of getting dropped, and there are guys who might not be driving the pace but they never get dropped. Look for the never get dropped guys and take your cues from them. Don't allow yourself to be in a situation where you have to rely on a weaker rider to hold a wheel.

Also, think about the landmarks on the ride and make subgoals to just make it to those landmarks. You may get dropped, but next week come back and make it to the next landmark.

Remind yourself that when it's hard for you, it's hard for everybody else. When you think you're about to be dropped, give yourself permission but only after giving everything you've got for the next 30 seconds. This has saved me many times: I am absolutely chewing the bar tape and desperate to hold the last wheel and I say "Okay, 30 more seconds." And most of the time it will slow just enough to allow me to latch on and recover. But if you do get dropped, no worries, you've given it all you had and that's good training.

After you've been dropped, get a drink and maybe eat a little, but don't waste the opportunity to now get in some solid tempo work. After you've had 3-5 minutes of easy pedaling, push a hard but steady pace back home. That's some solid work and you'll come back stronger next time.

Good luck!

Gladius

Thanks for the feedback. I've got 1100 miles in so far this year, over the winter we did a lot of gravel rides (cross bike) so while my mileage is going down during Nov/Dec/Jan, I'm still getting out multiple times a week during that time.

I have a power meter and have done FTP tests and know my zones. Losing weight will help me.

I do get dropped on climbs, and I'm a (relatively) bigger guy so I don't think I will ever stay with a young/skinny guy on the climbs, but I want to be able to stay with them on the flatter sections/rollers. I can produce a good amount of power on the flats and downhill so can make up some of the losses from the climbs then.

Taking a couple of example sections of 1%-2%, grade, I simply can't keep at the pace they are going without blowing up. I don't think they are accelerating to drop stragglers and then slowing down a bit - I think they are just getting up to a speed I can't sustain. I might start in the middle but as we rotate through and I get to the back, my HR is so high that I can't hang on any longer. A lot of these stretches are straight so it's not about skill in turning or drafting (I'm sure I could get better at these, but when I think about where I'm getting dropped, it's because of fitness rather than tactics).

There have been points in the past seasons where I have been able to stay above my threshold and hang on over shorter rollers or over a longer distance, but by then my HR has been high for long enough that I can't hang on for the second half of the ride.

I do suspect the Saturday ride is too fast for good training. That said, I don't have 20 hours a week to ride, so I probably can't do the classic massive endurance base. Maybe I need to do some endurance trainer work during the week, or give up on one of the rides.

rms13

OP: I was just looking at Strava of one guy I know that rides at that level. He rides 500-900 miles per month. Do you have that much time to be on the bike?

I have a job and family and it's hard for me to get more than 300 miles in a month

caloso

Are you looking at power and heart rate during these rides?

Gladius

Yep, last year I did between 250 and 650 miles/month (depending on the time of year).

Gladius

Yes, although TBH the power numbers fluctuate so much that I rely more on HR. I have the data to look at after the rides.

caloso

It's possible you are psyching yourself out. Unless you're under doctor's orders to limit HR, I might suggest sticking the head unit in your jersey pocket or putting it on a screen without HR and power. You might surprise yourself that you can dig deeper than you previously thought, and you'll still have the data for after the ride.

Sidney Porter

You need to decide do you want to participate in all of the group rides or do you want to train.

Compare it to golf. My father in law golfs just about 2x every week during the season. But he never practices refuses to take lessons. He has been doing this for 50 years. He will then complain that he can't break 90. If he took lessons and practiced but only golfer 1/2 the time he would cut 10 strokes. But golfing with his friends is fun pracrice isn't.

CafeVelo

I got so much faster when I stopped using a computer that I can see while riding. I'd either think "I'm going fast enough" and lay off, or get disheartened by what I was seeing, and lose motivation to keep punishing myself. When I don't know, all I can go by is if I have more to give or not.

12strings

Lots of good advice here, but the simple answer is interval training. If you have one fast group ride a week, you should have one or 2 other rides that consist of very hard intervals..then a few very easy recovery rides the day after the hard rides. If you're thinking of it in terms of effort out of ten, the riding a lot at a 7-8 effort will not make you as fast as riding the same amount, but splitting it between efforts of 9-10 and 3-4. This kind of work conditions your cardio vascular system better, and will burn more fat, losing weight.

patrickgm60

Excellent points, here, not just for group ride newbies, either.
I would add that, if purely speed is your goal, at some points in the group ride, you may want to experiment with cadence. When struggling to keep a pace, I find myself going to a higher cadence. Just before popping, I'm typically well over 100 rpm. If 1-2% grade sections are your challenge, I'd practice that section, at various gears/cadences, so see if I'm riding these sections most efficiently.

Campag4life

Can you tell us a bit about the intensity of your A group ride? What is typical speed on the flats? Do you get into the high 20's and sustain this speed for a mile or two? There are different levels of A group as well just like your B group rides. What are the pull speeds? You can practice this in your own air away from the group. See if you can pull 27mph for a mile or two.

Unless you are dedicated to training, diet...do intervals etc...and most importantly...you want it bad enough to suffer enough to prove it to yourself and others...it ain't easy to hang with the fast boys. They like to eat their young. Some are genetically blessed and train hard.
I have ridden with guys that can maintain 300 watts for an hour. I can't and am not willing to work hard enough to get there because that's what it takes....hard work. And generally big miles. A lot of guys I ride with...some stronger than me ride 12K miles a year. Big miles. Group I ride with isn't even the fastest in town which is pretty brutal. So you got to want it. No shortcuts. You mentioned your weight. You need to drop weight and get uber fit. This involves the discipline of diet as well...not to mention enough rest. A lifestyle.
Will say again, unless you are a genetic outlier, it takes a lot of work and discipline to stay with CAT racers in a A group.

tomato coupe

Can you post a link to a data file? Maybe someone will see something in the data and have some additional advice.

Jakedatc

+1 for my group rides i put my garmin on the map and only don't look at avg speed or anything else until the end. I either have it to stay in the group or I don't and whatever speed that day is doesn't matter. I am kinda in the same boat of B+/A- for our shop ride (tho i'm the skinny bastard you hate on hills but coast past going down).

If you are getting dropped on hills and know the routes you are doing then move yourself up before the hill then have everyone pass you going up. Then you are at the back going down and can recover.

knowing the speed difference between A and B would be helpful too. One shop I ride with the A is 20-21 down to 18-19 for B or a different shop they say the A is 18-20 and the B is 16-17.

Clipped_in

OP, I agree with the others that have suggested going to just the Tuesday ride and doing focused training outside of that. I also have the suspicion that you may be overreaching a bit. At your age, you should be taking the better part of a week off every 5-6 weeks.