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Cheapest carbon endurance bikes - your builds...I'm burned out from research

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Cheapest carbon endurance bikes - your builds...I'm burned out from research

Old 09-21-17, 06:29 PM
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exwhyzed
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Cheapest carbon endurance bikes - your builds...I'm burned out from research

Hi All,

I'm exhausted from researching components, Rol wheels, Dt swiss hubs, carbon endurance frames, workswell, hong fu, deng fu, i'm burned out fu.

If you can, please let me know of your light endurance carbon builds so i can get some ideas on frames and other components. I find that after all this research, i'm still at square one, except with a whole lot of conflicting information which is keeping me here
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Old 09-21-17, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by exwhyzed
Hi All,

I'm exhausted from researching components, Rol wheels, Dt swiss hubs, carbon endurance frames, workswell, hong fu, deng fu, i'm burned out fu.

If you can, please let me know of your light endurance carbon builds so i can get some ideas on frames and other components. I find that after all this research, i'm still at square one, except with a whole lot of conflicting information which is keeping me here
What size will it be you're looking to build? As a taller guy I've found the options for a bigger frameset in a relaxed or endurance geometry to be very limited with most of the lower priced and lightest of the Chinese more of a race geometry. As of now, this is the only 61CM frameset with a reach in the 400mm and stack in the 630mm range. I've not built the bike as of now, it's being considered. It's between building up this frame and buying a complete bikesdirect hybrid (yes, two completely different bikes) as my next bike.
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Old 09-21-17, 06:48 PM
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Nashbar carbon 105
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Old 09-21-17, 07:25 PM
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If you can't decide what components or even what frame you want, you will be better off picking something you like from your LBS.
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Old 09-21-17, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by benetga
Nashbar carbon 105
I don't think the Nashbar 105 could be consider an endurance bike. The 58CM has a headtube angle of 74 degrees with an ETT of 59CM and a WB od 101CM I'd consider that to be full on race geometry. The chart doesn't give reach and stack but I'd expect it to be long and low from what the geometry charts does list.
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Old 09-21-17, 09:28 PM
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I am examining the Workswell 093 with a 105 build kit and reasonably lightweight custom wheels ... plenty of wheels out there under 1600 grams (rims brakes, clinchers) for around $400. Figure $400-$600 for the frame, 28-mm Contis, cheap CF bars and stem, bought a Specialized Toupe saddle on closeout for like $30 .... A brand new 105 kit from one of the UK retailers can be had for about $400 right now. Figure $1500 for a 16-18 lb bike ....

I shop Ebay and a lot of online retailers each day, just going through their closeout and sales pages. I miss some great stuff by being five minutes too late, (like a half-price Vuelta disc wheel set --I was steaming I missed that by five minutes) but I also pick up some great deals on stuff I know I will need later.

I won't even order the frame for a month maybe, and I have already been shopping for a month.

As for components ... I usually use Vuelta wheels, but both Performance and Nashbar have some beautiful Reynolds wheels on sale, and Performance and one other place has some Stan's grail wheels .... just keep an eye open and when the price and features align, pull the trigger. if you can afford $500, there are some custom wheelbuilders who can hook you up. Again, budget usually determines what you wend up with. if your budget is unlimited ... hire someone to make you a one-off CF frame.

You can use any cables but I like Ultegra outers .. a set of shifter cables is like $22 but they have an extra inner lining and seem extra smooth .... Otherwise, I bought a box of cables wholesale. It might last me 20 years ... I am okay if I last that long.

Stems, seat posts, and bars are always on sale somewhere. Just wait until you see that sweet deal. $30 on EBay will get you all kinds of stuff with a few hundred miles on it, selling for a sixth of retail.

I got some new Cotelo Expresso clone pedals for $70 ... 165 grams per Pair. You can buy real Expresso 2s for about $55 ... I love the pedals, and they tend to be lighter than Shimano at every price point ... and very easy to enter/exit (which, for a clipfall kind of guy .... )

Cages and lights ... I look for whatever is cheap on EBay. Bought some CREE flashlights for $6 ... another dollar for a rubber mount, and they are brighter than my Light and Motion Urban 500.

For me, shopping is an exciting portion of each day ... Will today be the day I score that crankset with less than 100 miles? Will I find the guy who decided to trade Shimano for Campy and is dumping his take-offs cheap?

Also ... I got really good at ready geometry charts and learning from my existing bikes what will fit and how. It is always a little iffy, but the more you work at it the better you get at it.
Originally Posted by shelbyfv
If you can't decide what components or even what frame you want, you will be better off picking something you like from your LBS.
If the process of choosing a frame and components isn't turning you on ... buy a built-up bike. Honestly, you can probably get as good a bike cheaper by buying from a dealer. What you get by building your own is ... building your own. if that whole process doesn't do it for you, you are playing the wrong sport.

Have you made a list of the features you want? A list of your dimensions and your existing bikes' dimensions? Have you made a list of the various parts you will need? Have you determined a budget?

I start out figuring what i want to do with the bike or what kind of bike I want ... I decide what components it will need based on its intended use .... I choose from the available components of that kind based on price and availability ... meanwhile I concoct various color schemes (stealing much from the internet) And start picturing what the finished bike while look like and how I want it to ride.

If all this doesn't excite you, buy something off the shelf. or .... wait a few months. If the urge reignites, start over. if not, .... maybe you have enough bikes for now and need to ride more.

The only reason I decided to allow myself a new bike is because I took one out of rotation and made it a dedicated trainer bike. Maybe you have enough bikes for now, and if you just ride more, you will realize whether you really want another one, and if so, what you want it to do, which should motivate the choosing process.

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Old 09-23-17, 01:58 PM
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Thanks for the information all! Yes i'm definitely interested in building up a rig. One question that i've been pining over is lightweight name brand frames vs. chinese carbon frame. For example, how is a Trek Emonda SLR 640 gram frame trustworthy and a chinese carbon 800 frame not? I know that Trek has a lot more riding on their company name, and most likely will not sell a frame that will snap in half, but what magic is Trek doing to its frames that a chinese carbon manufacturer isn't? Are there really any Chinese carbon Emonda's or Domanes, or models with carbon layups that provide a more comfortable ride rather than just stiff carbon tubes formed together?
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Old 09-23-17, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by exwhyzed
Thanks for the information all! Yes i'm definitely interested in building up a rig. One question that i've been pining over is lightweight name brand frames vs. chinese carbon frame. For example, how is a Trek Emonda SLR 640 gram frame trustworthy and a chinese carbon 800 frame not? I know that Trek has a lot more riding on their company name, and most likely will not sell a frame that will snap in half, but what magic is Trek doing to its frames that a chinese carbon manufacturer isn't? Are there really any Chinese carbon Emonda's or Domanes, or models with carbon layups that provide a more comfortable ride rather than just stiff carbon tubes formed together?
Quality Control
If a Trek frame fails QC tests on the line, they will pull it (and probably all in its same run) A Chinese knockoff company will sell it anyway, or without QC testing at all
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Old 09-23-17, 05:02 PM
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UltraManDan is full of somethng, some might say (not I.)

Companies do not test every frame, as he implies. They pull a few frames out of production and assume they are representative, and then if those frames pass the tests, assume all the rest are fine. Some of the big Chinese manufacturers also test their frames .... maybe not as many, maybe just as many from each run. UltraMan doesn't know.

Also, check out the thread https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...yesterday.html The guy had his Deng Fu frame fail, and Deng Fu is sending a replacement frame, no questions asked. He earlier had a Specialized frame fail ... and was told he was free to buy a new one. Great warranty service, there.

Trek and Spec and Giant and Cannondale can afford to test more of their frames and will test more rigorously---one could Imagine. But there are as many stories of name-brand frames failing as of Chinabomb frames failing. Thing is, when the brand-name frames fail, people assume it was one bad frame, and when a Chinabomb fails, people assume they all fail. Logic is rare, like common sense.

If I wanted the latest and greatest, the lightest and strongest, say, if I were rich, or I was racing regularly ... then sure, pay $2500-$5000 for a name-brand frame. That is what the big brands sell---the latest, the lightest, the products of much research.

The Chinese companies sell two-year-old technology which has been reverse engineered from the good stuff. They are just starting to use EPS inner mold tech while the big brands had it a couple seasons ago. Every model the Chinese factories produce, is close to what the big brands were selling two years back. So ... if you need that last few percent of performance, pay for it, just as with anything else.

If you need a solid, dependable bike frame at an affordable price, join the ranks of the Chinabomb owners. The frames have been on the market for about a decade ... they just hit the general awareness a few years back, and there is still a lot of resistance. But information is out there

And to be sure, there are probably some low-quality knock-offs out there. Just like that "Coaoch" bag might look just like a real one and last just as long, or might fall apart in a week .... that is why most people prefer to go to the established factories (Wiorkswell, DengFu, HongFu, Flyxii ... But some people buy frames from those factories in bulk and sell them on EBay ... and some people sell really crappy knock-offs on EBay.

Here is what I know: for about a decade people (check weightweenies.com) who wanted really light frames (mostly for that racing edge) but could not afford the big name stuff, have been using the Chinabombs with success and satisfaction. Some of those frames failed or had QC issues, most of which were dealt with after customer complaints.

At the same time, some of the big manufacturers have had major frame and fork recalls in that same period. Stuff happens.

Some folks have found that the warranty from Trek or Specialized looks great on paper, but firms that big have lawyer budgets that big ... I have never heard of anyone who has been satisfied with his/her treatment by one of the big factories (though I am quite sure some folks have been treated well.)

On the other hand we have the guy from the thread above who just sent some photos and is getting a brand-new frame from Deng Fu for free ... after Trek basically told him, "We will sell you another frame .... at retail. You lose." (Basically, their frames are so good, if you broke one, it Must be user error, and thus is not covered.)

It is a lot like locking your bike. You might feel better knowing you bought a Trek or Specialized ... even though you know it might be no better in function. Just like the guy who has two Fahgeddaboutit locks and thinks that somehow two of them can defeat an angle grinder while one cannot. (/????) Some folks figure anything that stops a casual ride-away is enough because nothing can stop a pro ... just like some folks are happy riding Chinese CF for $500 instead of a Trek frame for $5000.

You have to make that call.

All I can say is that I did my research and chose a Chinese frame, and I love it, and am going to buy another one soon, and then another one after that.

If I die because of an asplosion, I will let you know.

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Old 09-23-17, 06:50 PM
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@UltraManDan @Maelochs

I work in manufacturing and I often am quoting jobs directly against Chinese companies. There was a time a decade ago when the quality deficits of Chinese products were obvious but that time has come and gone. A high end Chinese product is now every bit of equal quality of a high end US made product the difference being the high end Chinese item is 50-70% the cost of it's US counter part.

At this point China isn't an innovator, as I think Maelochs was eluding to but it's well known that the best of the bike parts offered from China aren't the latest innovations but rather back engineered duplicates of the last couple of years. In which case it would be foolish to think that they aren't more than capable of producing very fine replicas. But, even in these you get wha you pay for. If you're buying the cheapest examples then expect problems but if you paying from the mid to upper cost range for Chinese items it's reasonable to expect very good usable parts.

I'm considering a Chinese frameset now to replace my Italian made Basso. At $600 shipped, this is not a cheap Chinese frameset (by Chinese standards). I have a limited budget for my hobby, I will buy 1 of 3 items this year which is the frame I posted earlier in this thread, a flat bar bike from bikes direct and an interactive trainer (most likely the interactive trainer).
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Old 09-23-17, 07:01 PM
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Might want to check this one out OP. It seems to check all the boxes. I have no personal experience with it as of yet, but soon will. Am in the sweat stage of waiting for it to arrive!

Kestrel RT-1000 105 Road Bike-2016
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Old 09-23-17, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
UltraManDan is full of somethng, some might say (not I.)

Companies do not test every frame, as he implies. They pull a few frames out of production and assume they are representative, and then if those frames pass the tests, assume all the rest are fine. Some of the big Chinese manufacturers also test their frames .... maybe not as many, maybe just as many from each run. UltraMan doesn't know.

...blah blah blah
Did your Cat take over your keyboard?

Your "not I" statement seems almost exactly 180° off from EVERYthing else you say. Will the Real Maelochs please answer?
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Old 09-23-17, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Motolegs
Might want to check this one out OP. It seems to check all the boxes. I have no personal experience with it as of yet, but soon will. Am in the sweat stage of waiting for it to arrive!

Kestrel RT-1000 105 Road Bike-2016
In a quick review, I don't see any substantial difference between this $1500 bike and a $2000 Trek Domane SL5 other than the fact that the Kestral has a lot of "Oval Concepts" (never heard of them) whereas the Trek has full Shimano 105 groupset, and the Kestrel has an11/28 cassette whereas the Domane has an 11-32 (which I desperately need). Would I pay an extra $500 for a bike with a long heritage and large support system, not to mention an industry-only front/rear frame isolation system for a smoother rider? Well, I did. And I don't regret it. In the least.
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Old 09-23-17, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Motolegs
Might want to check this one out OP. It seems to check all the boxes. I have no personal experience with it as of yet, but soon will. Am in the sweat stage of waiting for it to arrive! Kestrel RT-1000 105 Road Bike-2016
That's about right ....


I recently bought a disc Fuji Sportif with most of the same kit except mech discs and heavy rims and tires---oh, and the Kesterel is all carbon while the Sportif has an Al frmae.

if you are looking for a CF endurance-geometry road machine .... that kestrel is almost exactly the bike I am trying to build right now. if you get them on one of their sale days you could get it cheaper, but seriously, $400 for the groupset, $500-$600 for the frame/forks/headset, $400-$500 for the wheels and tires, and the rest of the parts are free .... Not a bad deal.

if you don't want the hassle of trying to collect and assemble and adjust all the parts .... that is the end product you would be aiming at, right there. Cut to the chase and buy the ride you want.

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Old 09-23-17, 09:10 PM
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The cassette is $35, the tools (which last forever) are another $30. I got one of each cassette for the extra midrange gear if I am not planning a lot of climbing, and the bailout/granny if I am.

The Domane has the shock absorbers ("isospeed decouplers") which might or might not be worth anything. If I were to ride a lot of gravel, my lower back would probably like them. On the road .... not worth $500 to me, but then again, I have never tried them. I went with 28 mm tires instead.

Oval is Performance Bike's house brand (same company owns Fuji, Kestrel, Nashbar ... several other brands.) Every manufacturer uses house brands .... I cannot tell the difference between the Oval chainrings on the Fuji or the Ultegra rings on my Workswell.

Whether the name and the pedigree make any difference is personal only. It is quite possible that the same factory in China or Malaysia makes all the parts on both bikes, including the Shimano stuff.

I said above .... if the special joy and pain of building your own bike is not itself a reward, you can get more bike for the same money already built, and if you can afford a Domane, you owe it to yourself to test-ride one I guess.

One reason I bought the Fuji was because the BB shell on my Cannondale tourer crapped out. I got a rescue BB, but it seemed a good excuse to put that bike on the trainer full-time and buy a new one.

The second reason I got the Fuji is so when all of the bikes I built all need an adjustment, I Always have the Fuji to ride. I am Not the world's greatest mechanic (despite what I am sure are rampant rumors to the contrary) and some of the Frankenstein stuff ... it might last for a year without a anything but air in the tires, or it might need tweaking once a week for a few weeks until it feels it has received sufficient attention and stops mechanically pouting. Today I found that my derailleur was bent on the Workswell .... tomorrow or the next day I have to re-index my ancient Raleigh --- the front derailleur started working perfectly once I added new wheels but the rear went crazy.

Some days it is nice to pull the store-bought bike off the rack and not worry.

Of course, for me, most days I get tremendous thrills riding a bike I assembled from scraps and random bits.

Decide if you Really want to build a bike ... figure out why.

What course of action will most enrich your life?
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Old 09-23-17, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FlamsteadHill
In a quick review, I don't see any substantial difference between this $1500 bike and a $2000 Trek Domane SL5 other than the fact that the Kestral has a lot of "Oval Concepts" (never heard of them) whereas the Trek has full Shimano 105 groupset, and the Kestrel has an11/28 cassette whereas the Domane has an 11-32 (which I desperately need). Would I pay an extra $500 for a bike with a long heritage and large support system, not to mention an industry-only front/rear frame isolation system for a smoother rider? Well, I did. And I don't regret it. In the least.
I could really use an 11/32 cassette as well. I do like the 50 tooth chainring, it should prove really useful. I dig your thoughts about Trek, and their customer support. I have been there with the entry level 1.1. A great bike that needed attention right off the bat thanks to a POS bottom line FSA crankset. The guys at the store went above and beyond, replacing the bent abomination with an actual Shimano piece right before my eyes.

My thoughts on the soon to arrive Kestral is that it's a bike which I could not otherwise afford. I'm an older guy looking for speed and performance- comfort too as much as it pains me to say it- on a budget, and yes, it's a hell of a looker too! I will share my thoughts on the Oval Concepts parts after putting it together and giving it a workout on the road, where it counts.

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Old 09-24-17, 08:02 AM
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If I could justify the money, Trek Domane 6.9C.

However, I'm more of an alloy framed guy not carbon. If the Kestrel RT-1000 105 came in an aluminum option, I might have it already!
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Old 09-24-17, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
The Domane has the shock absorbers ("isospeed decouplers") which might or might not be worth anything. If I were to ride a lot of gravel, my lower back would probably like them. On the road .... not worth $500 to me, but then again, I have never tried them. I went with 28 mm tires instead.
Recent/current gen Domanes (4/5 anyways - I didn't look at others) come with 28mm tires. The disc ones can take 32s.

Part of the value of a name brand bought from a LBS is that the price includes professional assembly. To some, that's not worth anything, to others, it is. Further, our LBS includes a 30 day full tune-up with purchase, including re-truing the wheels. Those two things right there can be worth a couple hundred.

But in the end, we all make our choices and pay our prices. Some might buy all the bits, spending more than a pre-built bike, just because they want it "just like that" and you can't get it off the shelf that way. I have no problem with that.
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Old 09-24-17, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by FlamsteadHill
Recent/current gen Domanes (4/5 anyways - I didn't look at others) come with 28mm tires. The disc ones can take 32s.
Sure, I was just saying that in lieu of shock absorbers I chose wide tires. I am sure the Domane with 28s offers a more plush ride than a rigid Chinabomb .... oh well.

Anyway ... in two years the Chinese factories will introduce their new “Eye-Soah Dicuupplerz-equipped" frames ....

Originally Posted by FlamsteadHill
Part of the value of a name brand bought from a LBS is that the price includes professional assembly.
Cable adjustment and wheel-truing I can handle at home ... and for things like finding a tweaked derailleur, that is entirely a function of the excellence of the particular mechanic. We have all heard tales both of horror and of miraculous cures. Roll the dice.

Personally I think everyone should learn to adjust their cables, but getting a wheel really straight and round is a challenge .... worth the price of admission for most, for sure.

Originally Posted by FlamsteadHill
But in the end, we all make our choices and pay our prices. Some might buy all the bits, spending more than a pre-built bike, just because they want it "just like that" and you can't get it off the shelf that way. I have no problem with that.
Yup. When the shopping and building and lubing is done, the riding begins,, and where it came from and how much it cost all becomes irrelevant.

Ride what you like, like what you ride.
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Old 04-29-18, 06:05 AM
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xfimpg
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Where are you guys purchasing your frames from China? There isn't any pricing available on these websites... a quick Google Search points me to Alibaba...?
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