Consider this
#1
Banned
Thread Starter
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,549
Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5224 Post(s)
Liked 3,581 Times
in
2,342 Posts
hmmm ...
"the front fork snapped in half as if it had exploded from within" & “There’s an old saying in bike manufacturing: It can be lightweight, durable, or cheap—pick two. A lot of these carbon-fiber components are lightweight and cheap, but they are not durable.”
gonna be looking at my older (preowned) carbon fork equipped road bike, (with an unknown history), with more doubt now ...
"the front fork snapped in half as if it had exploded from within" & “There’s an old saying in bike manufacturing: It can be lightweight, durable, or cheap—pick two. A lot of these carbon-fiber components are lightweight and cheap, but they are not durable.”
gonna be looking at my older (preowned) carbon fork equipped road bike, (with an unknown history), with more doubt now ...
#3
Blue Collar Cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 129
Bikes: Motobecane Gravel X1, Iron Horse Maverick 1.0
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times
in
16 Posts
If you are curious about the internal condition of a Fiber Fork or frame, tap it with a quarter. It should sound almost like a "ping". If it sounds flat you may have some delamination going on.
It's called a "Ring Check"
It's called a "Ring Check"
#4
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,116
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1789 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times
in
933 Posts
Assplosion everywhere!
No word on the riders weight, among other factors.
Any one care to venture a guess about her bicycle inspection routine? I know it's crazy, but lot's of things can be found just by looking with a bright light & a close eye for detail.
Sounds to me like she hit something, went to a shop (who wouldn't look for a problem they weren't told about) & kept her mouth shut so she could get a scapegoat & a fat payday. But that is conjecture.
No word on the riders weight, among other factors.
Any one care to venture a guess about her bicycle inspection routine? I know it's crazy, but lot's of things can be found just by looking with a bright light & a close eye for detail.
Sounds to me like she hit something, went to a shop (who wouldn't look for a problem they weren't told about) & kept her mouth shut so she could get a scapegoat & a fat payday. But that is conjecture.
#6
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Assplosion everywhere!
No word on the riders weight, among other factors.
Any one care to venture a guess about her bicycle inspection routine? I know it's crazy, but lot's of things can be found just by looking with a bright light & a close eye for detail.
Sounds to me like she hit something, went to a shop (who wouldn't look for a problem they weren't told about) & kept her mouth shut so she could get a scapegoat & a fat payday. But that is conjecture.
No word on the riders weight, among other factors.
Any one care to venture a guess about her bicycle inspection routine? I know it's crazy, but lot's of things can be found just by looking with a bright light & a close eye for detail.
Sounds to me like she hit something, went to a shop (who wouldn't look for a problem they weren't told about) & kept her mouth shut so she could get a scapegoat & a fat payday. But that is conjecture.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,904
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 3,928 Times
in
2,553 Posts
In a different thread, someone posted a pic of a steel MTB with carbon fork. It had hit a tree. Fork looked perfect but both top tube and down tube were almost completely severed and bent about 30 degrees. Frame obviously destroyed but the fork looked ready to go onto another bike. Did it have hidden damage? Then there is the possibility of construction flaws. I used to build fiberglass boats. Work that is pretty can be fatally flawed. (And how much to the factories pay their help to get high quality laminates?)
As one who has paid big time for hidden damage in a fork, I will only ride forks that (almost always) show their damage. And even when I cannot see it, so far, those forks have always made it known something was wrong without me looking.
Ben
As one who has paid big time for hidden damage in a fork, I will only ride forks that (almost always) show their damage. And even when I cannot see it, so far, those forks have always made it known something was wrong without me looking.
Ben
Likes For 79pmooney:
#10
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,116
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1789 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times
in
933 Posts
Well, maybe my experience with trash family members & their repeated insurance fraud schemes, (several of which were successful) has me jaded a bit.
I still stick by my wholly biased and completly unsupported conjecture.
There's no need to lecture me on my view of well trained monkeys when profit is involved.
I still stick by my wholly biased and completly unsupported conjecture.
There's no need to lecture me on my view of well trained monkeys when profit is involved.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
hmmm ...
"the front fork snapped in half as if it had exploded from within" & “There’s an old saying in bike manufacturing: It can be lightweight, durable, or cheap—pick two. A lot of these carbon-fiber components are lightweight and cheap, but they are not durable.”
gonna be looking at my older (preowned) carbon fork equipped road bike, (with an unknown history), with more doubt now ...
"the front fork snapped in half as if it had exploded from within" & “There’s an old saying in bike manufacturing: It can be lightweight, durable, or cheap—pick two. A lot of these carbon-fiber components are lightweight and cheap, but they are not durable.”
gonna be looking at my older (preowned) carbon fork equipped road bike, (with an unknown history), with more doubt now ...
-mr. bill
Likes For mr_bill:
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,436
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 396 Times
in
274 Posts
I worked part time in a bicycle shop in the late 1970s and was told by the owner to let him know if any of a certain brand of bicycle came in for service. I think it was Viscount, the aluminum forks were snapping without warning. They have obviously improved on aluminum over the years but the average person does not know how to detect a problem if it is not visible to the eye. I have always purchased steel framed bicycles. Bottom brackets and seat stays have been failure points on a few bicycles that I have owned. I noticed them through sound or visible damage before it became a safety hazard. I was riding once and the right side of a drop bar broke loose. The bike had been blown over by the wind on more than one occasion. I didn't loose control and learned from the experience.
#13
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
I cracked my tooth on a carbon spork. Those things a lot tougher than they look.
Likes For livedarklions:
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NE Tennessee
Posts: 917
Bikes: Giant TCR/Surly Karate Monkey/Foundry FireTower/Curtlo Tandem
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times
in
62 Posts
From the article, she bought a 2nd hand bike and took it to a bike shop for a tune up.
I don't see how the bike manufacturer can be held liable for a bike that has changed hands and is in an unknown condition. That is one reason why warranties rarely are transferable.
It's like if a bad bolt makes it into a car suspension on the assembly line and 1 car has an accident because of the one bad bolt. It will rarely get investigated to the point where it is determined that it was the failure of the 1 bolt. Now if there are multiple failures of the suspension due to a bad design which is breaking the 1 bolt, then a pattern will develop over time.
In this case, if there is a severe enough manufacturing defect that forks and frames are breaking, there should me numerous occurrences of breakage on the one design.
Without professional analysis of the broken fork, it is all conjecture on our part. All that said, it will eventually be settled out of court.
From the viewpoint of the bike shop. What happens in a case like this where someone brings a used bike into a shop for a tube up and then has a failure similar to this and goes after the shop? Will shops have to have customers sign waivers understanding that the bike was tuned up and mechanically inspected but there are no guarantees that the frame is 100% intact?
Our LBS had a warranty for a full suspension Yeti frame that developed a slight crack. It was nearly impossible to find in stripped down and clean condition. I can't imagine finding that crack if it was still cabled up and dirty from use.
It will be interesting to see what happens with carbon frames over the next several years.
I don't see how the bike manufacturer can be held liable for a bike that has changed hands and is in an unknown condition. That is one reason why warranties rarely are transferable.
It's like if a bad bolt makes it into a car suspension on the assembly line and 1 car has an accident because of the one bad bolt. It will rarely get investigated to the point where it is determined that it was the failure of the 1 bolt. Now if there are multiple failures of the suspension due to a bad design which is breaking the 1 bolt, then a pattern will develop over time.
In this case, if there is a severe enough manufacturing defect that forks and frames are breaking, there should me numerous occurrences of breakage on the one design.
Without professional analysis of the broken fork, it is all conjecture on our part. All that said, it will eventually be settled out of court.
From the viewpoint of the bike shop. What happens in a case like this where someone brings a used bike into a shop for a tube up and then has a failure similar to this and goes after the shop? Will shops have to have customers sign waivers understanding that the bike was tuned up and mechanically inspected but there are no guarantees that the frame is 100% intact?
Our LBS had a warranty for a full suspension Yeti frame that developed a slight crack. It was nearly impossible to find in stripped down and clean condition. I can't imagine finding that crack if it was still cabled up and dirty from use.
It will be interesting to see what happens with carbon frames over the next several years.
#16
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
From the article, she bought a 2nd hand bike and took it to a bike shop for a tune up.
I don't see how the bike manufacturer can be held liable for a bike that has changed hands and is in an unknown condition. That is one reason why warranties rarely are transferable.
It's like if a bad bolt makes it into a car suspension on the assembly line and 1 car has an accident because of the one bad bolt. It will rarely get investigated to the point where it is determined that it was the failure of the 1 bolt. Now if there are multiple failures of the suspension due to a bad design which is breaking the 1 bolt, then a pattern will develop over time.
In this case, if there is a severe enough manufacturing defect that forks and frames are breaking, there should me numerous occurrences of breakage on the one design.
Without professional analysis of the broken fork, it is all conjecture on our part. All that said, it will eventually be settled out of court.
From the viewpoint of the bike shop. What happens in a case like this where someone brings a used bike into a shop for a tube up and then has a failure similar to this and goes after the shop? Will shops have to have customers sign waivers understanding that the bike was tuned up and mechanically inspected but there are no guarantees that the frame is 100% intact?
Our LBS had a warranty for a full suspension Yeti frame that developed a slight crack. It was nearly impossible to find in stripped down and clean condition. I can't imagine finding that crack if it was still cabled up and dirty from use.
It will be interesting to see what happens with carbon frames over the next several years.
I don't see how the bike manufacturer can be held liable for a bike that has changed hands and is in an unknown condition. That is one reason why warranties rarely are transferable.
It's like if a bad bolt makes it into a car suspension on the assembly line and 1 car has an accident because of the one bad bolt. It will rarely get investigated to the point where it is determined that it was the failure of the 1 bolt. Now if there are multiple failures of the suspension due to a bad design which is breaking the 1 bolt, then a pattern will develop over time.
In this case, if there is a severe enough manufacturing defect that forks and frames are breaking, there should me numerous occurrences of breakage on the one design.
Without professional analysis of the broken fork, it is all conjecture on our part. All that said, it will eventually be settled out of court.
From the viewpoint of the bike shop. What happens in a case like this where someone brings a used bike into a shop for a tube up and then has a failure similar to this and goes after the shop? Will shops have to have customers sign waivers understanding that the bike was tuned up and mechanically inspected but there are no guarantees that the frame is 100% intact?
Our LBS had a warranty for a full suspension Yeti frame that developed a slight crack. It was nearly impossible to find in stripped down and clean condition. I can't imagine finding that crack if it was still cabled up and dirty from use.
It will be interesting to see what happens with carbon frames over the next several years.
It would have to be on a strict liability for defective product basis, which means she'll have the burden of proving that the product was defective as manufactured. It will be tough, but she's going after the deepest pocket with this, and the Illinois court decided she can at least try the case:
https://www.illinoiscourts.gov/Opinio...ct/1152293.pdf
Does anybody know if this case settled? I can't find any follow-up to the jurisdiction decision.
#17
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,924
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3352 Post(s)
Liked 1,056 Times
in
635 Posts
Not a fan of CF (plastic) bikes at all. But I guess if people think they want one, make sure it is new. That way you will know if any crashes or undue stress was placed on the bike. Buying used is probably a double whammy for having it break.
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Layton, UT
Posts: 1,606
Bikes: 2011 Bent TW Elegance 2014 Carbon Strada Velomobile
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Liked 701 Times
in
418 Posts
Disclaimer: I'm an aircraft structures engineer that works with AL, Steels, and CF on a daily basis, and part of my job is writing the work instructions for inspections.
Likes For Notso_fastLane:
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,845
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2338 Post(s)
Liked 2,822 Times
in
1,541 Posts
This is laughable. Some damage would be visible prior to failure, but steel and aluminum are very similar in their 'detectability' when talking about cracks detectable with the naked eye.
Oddly, if people knew the best way to detect damage in CF, it's potentially the most readily inspectable material by a means available to your average person.
Disclaimer: I'm an aircraft structures engineer that works with AL, Steels, and CF on a daily basis, and part of my job is writing the work instructions for inspections.
Oddly, if people knew the best way to detect damage in CF, it's potentially the most readily inspectable material by a means available to your average person.
Disclaimer: I'm an aircraft structures engineer that works with AL, Steels, and CF on a daily basis, and part of my job is writing the work instructions for inspections.
Part of the problem is not the material but is people wanting to use race level frames, without considering these are considered disposable by race teams. A carbon bike can be made bombproof (mountain bikes are an example) but it will not be light at that build level.
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,436
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 396 Times
in
274 Posts
This is laughable. Some damage would be visible prior to failure, but steel and aluminum are very similar in their ' detectability' when talking about cracks detectable with the naked eye.
I am interested in finding out how to detect a problem before someone gets hurt. Is there a simple way to detect damage in carbon fiber or should someone never purchase a used or cheap carbon fiber bicycle.
#21
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,116
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1789 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times
in
933 Posts
Aluminum damage can be invisible to a visual inspection. That is why parts are put through a die penetrate process. This is why there were recalls on aluminum forks and some people did face-plants.
I am interested in finding out how to detect a problem before someone gets hurt. Is there a simple way to detect damage in carbon fiber or should someone never purchase a used or cheap carbon fiber bicycle.
I am interested in finding out how to detect a problem before someone gets hurt. Is there a simple way to detect damage in carbon fiber or should someone never purchase a used or cheap carbon fiber bicycle.
But similar methods work for carbon. "Tap test" can be of use, but it's crude. There's also a bright light & a keen eye. you can stress test if you'd like. I once bought some used carbon bars. When I got home I did my best to twist, bend, & compress the bars. I got a tiny crackle & tossed it in the trash. Sometimes a good deal, isn't. I had some carbon forks I killed with a giant disc rotor. It got "weird" so I replaced it. Hairline crack around where the carbon fork leg inserted to the crown lug.
Any dents, dings, deformation or bubbles would be immediately suspect as already failed or at the very least evidence of fatigue or impact. How's the paint look? Hairline crack?...that's a dead give away.
Any change in performance, however slight might be a good time to thoroughly inspect.
Then tap as crude as it is just to get an idea about any suspect areas. Tap, tap, thunk. Similar to searching for a stud in the drywall.
After that, then Ultrasonic if you feel the cost is justified, as it literally is a window into the structure. I don't know of any where to get that done. But I've seen it done dozens of times where I work. Cool stuff.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,904
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 3,928 Times
in
2,553 Posts
I worked part time in a bicycle shop in the late 1970s and was told by the owner to let him know if any of a certain brand of bicycle came in for service. I think it was Viscount, the aluminum forks were snapping without warning. They have obviously improved on aluminum over the years but the average person does not know how to detect a problem if it is not visible to the eye. I have always purchased steel framed bicycles. Bottom brackets and seat stays have been failure points on a few bicycles that I have owned. I noticed them through sound or visible damage before it became a safety hazard. I was riding once and the right side of a drop bar broke loose. The bike had been blown over by the wind on more than one occasion. I didn't loose control and learned from the experience.
Ben
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,436
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 396 Times
in
274 Posts
Inspection of parts can be expensive Die penatrate is at least a 3 part process. You take a cleaned part soak it clean it and look for penetrate leaching out for a sign of a crack. I believe this is done with a special lite akin to a dark room when you develop photos. I believe that helicopter parts are rated at so many hours and then the dispose and replace of, or inspection of those parts is done. I use chromemoly steel frames and forks. Seat stay cracks and BB cracks several times over the years.
#24
Banned
Thread Starter
#25
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,972
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,535 Times
in
1,045 Posts
Not so fast; lots of the conjecture on this forum is solidly founded - on paranoia, Bicycling Correctness (BC) and/or cherry picked factoids gleaned from the Internet.