Is anybody buying Titanium frames?
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All you need is a custom frame builder and you can have a CF touring bike, racks and fenders could be integrated into the frame using the same CF material. Probably cost $10,000.... You could easily build a touring bike on an AL frame, by starting with an MTB.... Would have really good gearing for touring....
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This. It's a ridiculous argument. Unless you are riding a 26 lb frame made out of gas pipe, a peasant with an arc welder in outer Mongolia isn't gonna be able to fix your bike. And I have a hard time believing that the people making that BS argument are dumb enough to believe it.
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Where there can be a huge savings with Ti, is that a damaged Ti frame is like a damaged Steel frame, you see the damage. That means that a used frame can be trusted. Even aluminum usually will show it's damaged, although some people don't like to buy used AL frames, because you can't tell if it's 5 minutes or 5 decades from failure. CF can be damaged internally and catastrophically fail. That means riders in the know, will not buy a used CF bicycle, they will not buy used AL either.
It all depends though on what you want out of a bicycle, if you want a harsh ride, then go AL, if you want a fast ride, go CF, if you want a comfy ride, go Ti, if you want a durable ride, go steel.
It all depends though on what you want out of a bicycle, if you want a harsh ride, then go AL, if you want a fast ride, go CF, if you want a comfy ride, go Ti, if you want a durable ride, go steel.
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You can still get a bike like that here-------https://www.sevencycles.com/bikes/622-slx.php
Since I'm not I'll have to settle for a Mercian Audax lugged steel frame next spring. I can cover that cost with my work-bonus check and get it in any color I want with any Reynolds tubing I want and with any braze ons or angles I want for a fraction of the cost.
And when I see them making CF touring frames I'll believe in them.....Not quite enough to buy one though.
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Well, I have a CF bike, an Al bike, a steel bike and I'm searching for a used Salsa Vaya Ti frame. They stopped making them this year...Rats.
They still produce a few other models in Ti. The new Warbird Ti gravel grinder is intriguing.
They still produce a few other models in Ti. The new Warbird Ti gravel grinder is intriguing.
Last edited by con; 09-23-13 at 09:14 PM.
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OK CF touring cyclists:
I picked these photos up over in C&V in the Why do you prefer steel frames thread
Don't know what the story is behind those 'uns but here's the story on this one:
That was caused from hitting this 1.5" deep pothole:
And I know that lugged steel can fail alright but it takes a mighty hard knock to fail it:
Haven't come across pics of welded Titanium failures.....yet
I picked these photos up over in C&V in the Why do you prefer steel frames thread
Don't know what the story is behind those 'uns but here's the story on this one:
That was caused from hitting this 1.5" deep pothole:
And I know that lugged steel can fail alright but it takes a mighty hard knock to fail it:
Haven't come across pics of welded Titanium failures.....yet
Last edited by Zinger; 09-24-13 at 01:30 AM.
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Re: AL framed bikes....I have an AL Masi Gran Criterium with CF front and rear. It weighs 17 lbs w/o pedals. It's about 8 yrs. old and I still love it. I put 25s on it and it is smooth, comfortable and fast even when I weighed 190 lbs. I can't wait to get back on it at 175 lbs.
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Re: AL framed bikes....I have an AL Masi Gran Criterium with CF front and rear. It weighs 17 lbs w/o pedals. It's about 8 yrs. old and I still love it. I put 25s on it and it is smooth, comfortable and fast even when I weighed 190 lbs. I can't wait to get back on it at 175 lbs.
#60
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OK CF touring cyclists:
I picked these photos up over in C&V in the Why do you prefer steel frames thread
Don't know what the story is behind those 'uns but here's the story on this one:
That was caused from hitting this 1.5" deep pothole:
And I know that lugged steel can fail alright but it takes a mighty hard knock to fail it:
Haven't come across pics of welded Titanium failures.....yet
I picked these photos up over in C&V in the Why do you prefer steel frames thread
Don't know what the story is behind those 'uns but here's the story on this one:
That was caused from hitting this 1.5" deep pothole:
And I know that lugged steel can fail alright but it takes a mighty hard knock to fail it:
Haven't come across pics of welded Titanium failures.....yet
https://www.carrswelding.co.uk/cycling.html
Very rare though are catastrophic failures.
#61
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Since I'm not I'll have to settle for a Mercian Audax lugged steel frame next spring.
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Yes, yes, yes - we know that forces are applied along the tubes in a bike, but this does say something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0eP-6j8d6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0eP-6j8d6s
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Wow, I don't visit for a few days and I come back to see the squabbles about which frame material is best. Folks, you know you really don’t have to defend your choice of frame material. If you look at the bottom of my post you’ll see that I ride steel, carbon, titanium, and aluminum. It’s all good when executed properly. Although, I do tend to ride the Indy Fab titanium bike= more than I ride the others. Truth be told, I suspect the reason is that it was custom built for me and the kind of riding I do most.
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Favorite rides in the stable: Indy Fab CJ Ti - Colnago MXL - S-Works Roubaix - Habanero Team Issue - Jamis Eclipse carbon/831
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I've also heard plenty of stories of CF failures after years of hard riding. I'll mostly pass on used CF unless it's a total gift (both my current CFs were freebie hand-me-downs --and I love them. In fact my CF roadie is probably my best fit of all 10 bikes).
[edit: and this was a total loss also --but the point is: it was still ridable for however long it was needed.]
Last edited by dbg; 09-24-13 at 07:18 AM.
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And I've often paraphrased an old Jay Leno routine about how sturdy cars used to be (actually non-collapsable dash boards):
"steel bikes in terrible crashes?, ...just hose them off and give them to somebody else"
"steel bikes in terrible crashes?, ...just hose them off and give them to somebody else"
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Time to counter the rumors and lies that are flying around here with something real.
https://www.pinkbike.com/video/243228/
Carbon, tested to failure.
https://www.pinkbike.com/video/243228/
Carbon, tested to failure.
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Yes. Retrogrouches.
As a commercial product, you won't see anything other than steel in touring bikes until all the retrogrouches have passed away. Retrogrouches effectively killed Cannondale's aluminum touring bike.
"You can't take it to any welder on the planet and have it fixed," is their argument against non-ferrous frames. Personally, I wouldn't take a steel bike to just any welder on the planet either. I'd hold out for someone who knows bikes and thinwall bicycle tubing. And frankly, I'd probably just go to an LBS and get another frame. Screw auditioning welders.
You can have a touring bike made in anything you like. It's only off-the-rack models you can find only in steel.
If Boeing can make airliners out of carbon fiber, then certainly touring bikes can be made of the stuff. It's not a technological problem.
As a commercial product, you won't see anything other than steel in touring bikes until all the retrogrouches have passed away. Retrogrouches effectively killed Cannondale's aluminum touring bike.
"You can't take it to any welder on the planet and have it fixed," is their argument against non-ferrous frames. Personally, I wouldn't take a steel bike to just any welder on the planet either. I'd hold out for someone who knows bikes and thinwall bicycle tubing. And frankly, I'd probably just go to an LBS and get another frame. Screw auditioning welders.
You can have a touring bike made in anything you like. It's only off-the-rack models you can find only in steel.
If Boeing can make airliners out of carbon fiber, then certainly touring bikes can be made of the stuff. It's not a technological problem.
Touring bikes are a small niche in a niche market. Most people who buy one aren't looking to save weight or go fast.
Frame material arguments are silly. There is a lot more than material involved in the way a bike rides. The stiffest, most bone jarring bike I ever rode was steel. The softest, most noodly bike I ever rode was steel.
To say ti is soft or comfy is another bs generalization. The ti Seven I have is quite stiff and beats me up on rough roads.
To say steel is indestructable is another bs statement. I have broken 3 steel frames including a nice lugged one which cracked around the bb, another lugged frame where the chainstay divorced from the drop-out, and another where the lugged headtube failed.
If you think cf is fragile, consider the last several downhill world championships have been won on cf.
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I don't compare rides for the same reasons stated above. But I'm still pretty sure that one more likely encounters forces that would bend a steel chain stay but would crack a CF one. The steel bends back. Anecdotal examples aside, it's the failure modes that I worry about.
[edit: just to stay on topic, "TI too"]
[edit: just to stay on topic, "TI too"]
Last edited by dbg; 09-24-13 at 08:38 AM.
#69
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I don't compare rides for the same reasons stated above. But I'm still pretty sure that one more likely encounters forces that would bend a steel chain stay but would crack a CF one. The steel bends back. Anecdotal examples aside, it's the failure modes that I worry about.
[edit: just to stay on topic, "TI too"]
[edit: just to stay on topic, "TI too"]
Catastrophic failure es no bueno.
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#70
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A couple years ago my bf got a custom ti road bike frame built built by a Legendary Ti Builder. It rode so terrible (very stiff) that he had to send it back. (Legendary Ti Builder was not happy about that.) He then got a IF Steel Crown Jewel that he loves. He may get a Ti Crown Jewel eventually.
I had been considering getting a custom ti road frame. I'm now concerned that the ride will be too harsh. I have a cf road bike and a steel road bike and both are quite plush. I like them.
I did get a Salsa Vaya Ti last winter. I have been getting more use out of that (commuting, mostly) than I would of a ti road bike.
I had been considering getting a custom ti road frame. I'm now concerned that the ride will be too harsh. I have a cf road bike and a steel road bike and both are quite plush. I like them.
I did get a Salsa Vaya Ti last winter. I have been getting more use out of that (commuting, mostly) than I would of a ti road bike.
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#71
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I have one of the Cannondale touring bikes and it came with a steel (!) fork. It's quite comfy, stable, and rides great with a load. It's better than the steel Nishiki it replaced.
Touring bikes are a small niche in a niche market. Most people who buy one aren't looking to save weight or go fast.
Frame material arguments are silly. There is a lot more than material involved in the way a bike rides. The stiffest, most bone jarring bike I ever rode was steel. The softest, most noodly bike I ever rode was steel.
To say ti is soft or comfy is another bs generalization. The ti Seven I have is quite stiff and beats me up on rough roads.
To say steel is indestructable is another bs statement. I have broken 3 steel frames including a nice lugged one which cracked around the bb, another lugged frame where the chainstay divorced from the drop-out, and another where the lugged headtube failed.
If you think cf is fragile, consider the last several downhill world championships have been won on cf.
Touring bikes are a small niche in a niche market. Most people who buy one aren't looking to save weight or go fast.
Frame material arguments are silly. There is a lot more than material involved in the way a bike rides. The stiffest, most bone jarring bike I ever rode was steel. The softest, most noodly bike I ever rode was steel.
To say ti is soft or comfy is another bs generalization. The ti Seven I have is quite stiff and beats me up on rough roads.
To say steel is indestructable is another bs statement. I have broken 3 steel frames including a nice lugged one which cracked around the bb, another lugged frame where the chainstay divorced from the drop-out, and another where the lugged headtube failed.
If you think cf is fragile, consider the last several downhill world championships have been won on cf.
CF when it goes past the deformation point, has an extremely narrow range, before it cracks. This is much wider for metal, unless that metal is hardened, hardening will make the metal less ductile, it will permanently bend for a much narrower range before cracking. You often harden metal using heat, almost all AL frames are hardened, which is why when you bend a derailleur hanger, you replace it rather then bend it back. I do not know if Ti frames are hardened or not. Steel is typically hardened as a byproduct of welding, brazing or soldering, which is why a steel frame that does crack, will crack at a joint.
We have all seen, including in this thread what happens to CF if you force it beyond the deformation point, it breaks. While AL frames tend to crack in this instance, and so, often does Ti, they tend not to fail completely right away. A good reason to give your bike a good cleaning on a regular basis.
Steel tends to bend a lot before it cracks, even when it does, it tends to not fail completely either. Yeah a tweaked frame will not handle as well, someone in C&V says that most frames he sees from before 1980 are tweaked to some degree. The big bonus then for metal frames is that a serious crash may mean needing to replace or repair the frame, but at least you don't end up eating asphalt.
I think there are places where CF is great, professional racing is one of them. For a duffer like me, it really is a good way to lighten the wallet a lot, with little gain in performance....
#72
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My only hesitation about carbon fiber composites is in a composite's unique failure mode of delamination, which can be impossible to detect without special equipment, yet seriously weakens a part that looks and feels perfectly good. As bicycle manufacturers become more familiar with using composites, and possibly with contributions in automated composite techniques learned by Boeing for it's 787, maybe this won't be such a problem.
The youtube video of the truck running over tubes is true, yet pointless, since it is measuring stress/strain in a way that doesn't apply to stress/strain in a bicycle frame. Also, the use of a titanium tube that hasn't yet been drawn, so that it's tube wall is still relatively thick, is a bit of a bait and switch tactic. Any bicycle with tubes able to withstand being run over by a car, are going to be insanely heavy. I'm thinking of the BSOs in the house, that are made of high-tension steel. The tube walls are nice and thick, and resistant to crushing forces that would flatten my cro-moly bicycle into a 2D artwork, but the smaller "bicycle" weighs MUCH more than my larger bicycle.
I don't know why I'm adding to the flameyness with nitpicking for which I offer no supporting evidence or documentation. I must enjoy the feeling of humiliation as my comments are mercilessly picked apart and debunked, proving my idiocy in voicing loudly opinions bathed a solution of FAIL and WRONG...
I really ought to hit the "cancel" button instead of the "Reply" button...
The youtube video of the truck running over tubes is true, yet pointless, since it is measuring stress/strain in a way that doesn't apply to stress/strain in a bicycle frame. Also, the use of a titanium tube that hasn't yet been drawn, so that it's tube wall is still relatively thick, is a bit of a bait and switch tactic. Any bicycle with tubes able to withstand being run over by a car, are going to be insanely heavy. I'm thinking of the BSOs in the house, that are made of high-tension steel. The tube walls are nice and thick, and resistant to crushing forces that would flatten my cro-moly bicycle into a 2D artwork, but the smaller "bicycle" weighs MUCH more than my larger bicycle.
I don't know why I'm adding to the flameyness with nitpicking for which I offer no supporting evidence or documentation. I must enjoy the feeling of humiliation as my comments are mercilessly picked apart and debunked, proving my idiocy in voicing loudly opinions bathed a solution of FAIL and WRONG...
I really ought to hit the "cancel" button instead of the "Reply" button...
#73
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My only hesitation about carbon fiber composites is in a composite's unique failure mode of delamination, which can be impossible to detect without special equipment, yet seriously weakens a part that looks and feels perfectly good. As bicycle manufacturers become more familiar with using composites, and possibly with contributions in automated composite techniques learned by Boeing for it's 787, maybe this won't be such a problem.
The youtube video of the truck running over tubes is true, yet pointless, since it is measuring stress/strain in a way that doesn't apply to stress/strain in a bicycle frame. Also, the use of a titanium tube that hasn't yet been drawn, so that it's tube wall is still relatively thick, is a bit of a bait and switch tactic. Any bicycle with tubes able to withstand being run over by a car, are going to be insanely heavy. I'm thinking of the BSOs in the house, that are made of high-tension steel. The tube walls are nice and thick, and resistant to crushing forces that would flatten my cro-moly bicycle into a 2D artwork, but the smaller "bicycle" weighs MUCH more than my larger bicycle.
I don't know why I'm adding to the flameyness with nitpicking for which I offer no supporting evidence or documentation. I must enjoy the feeling of humiliation as my comments are mercilessly picked apart and debunked, proving my idiocy in voicing loudly opinions bathed a solution of FAIL and WRONG...
I really ought to hit the "cancel" button instead of the "Reply" button...
The youtube video of the truck running over tubes is true, yet pointless, since it is measuring stress/strain in a way that doesn't apply to stress/strain in a bicycle frame. Also, the use of a titanium tube that hasn't yet been drawn, so that it's tube wall is still relatively thick, is a bit of a bait and switch tactic. Any bicycle with tubes able to withstand being run over by a car, are going to be insanely heavy. I'm thinking of the BSOs in the house, that are made of high-tension steel. The tube walls are nice and thick, and resistant to crushing forces that would flatten my cro-moly bicycle into a 2D artwork, but the smaller "bicycle" weighs MUCH more than my larger bicycle.
I don't know why I'm adding to the flameyness with nitpicking for which I offer no supporting evidence or documentation. I must enjoy the feeling of humiliation as my comments are mercilessly picked apart and debunked, proving my idiocy in voicing loudly opinions bathed a solution of FAIL and WRONG...
I really ought to hit the "cancel" button instead of the "Reply" button...
I don't feel the need to defend or attack carbon, Ti, Al and steel. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. I have a CF bike, several Al bikes and one that's a combination of CF and Al. And I used to ride steel (I don't anymore ... I live near the beach and even the best of them start to rust). I've seen stainless steel bikes too ... expensive, but kinda cool. It's also true that you can make a good bike or a crappy one from any combination of CF, Ti, Al, or steel.
I've actually written some documents directed to finding defects in CF materials in aerospace applications. Damage and failures are harder to detect, and CF is brittle, which can lead to catastrophic failures. Obviously, I think that is a manageable risk, as I spend most of my time on a CF bike.
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#74
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I know. But, don't TI framed bikes have CF forks too? I don't really know. I was just trying to make the point that an AL framed bike doesn't have to be the stereotypical "rigid" ride.
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Nearly all higher end bikes come with cf forks.
The last thing I think about when selecting a frame is crash survival. If I crash, I worry more about myself than the stupid bike.
Any frame can be destroyed in a crash, and any frame can fail. As I have already posted, I have broken 4 frames, 3 steel and 1 aluminum.
The last thing I think about when selecting a frame is crash survival. If I crash, I worry more about myself than the stupid bike.
Any frame can be destroyed in a crash, and any frame can fail. As I have already posted, I have broken 4 frames, 3 steel and 1 aluminum.