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Keto diet?

Old 02-26-20, 08:32 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Were do keto diet fans get their fiber?
I bet most of them suffer from constipation and end up using laxatives to clear themselves out.
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Old 02-26-20, 08:44 PM
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Radical idea: How about people who don't like Keto and have nothing valuable to contribute just stay in their own threads? Start your vegan, juice, bread, or carb or whatever thread and knock yourselves out....

I get it that there are reasons to not like a specific thing, but no one forces you to participate. I don't like riding BMX bikes, but I don't go into BMX threads and tell them why BMX sucks....
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Old 02-26-20, 09:15 PM
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I am on the ultimate keto diet. Though not by choice. I have food intolerances and my body really only works with protein. Veggies maybe twice a week at most. Carbs are out my body hates them they have caused my lifelong heartburn but they also cause other issues and they don’t give me any energy spots eating them is kind of pointless. ow that I have finally taken control and don’t eat many carbs my heath has gotten better. I keep carbs of any kind to around 15 grams or so a day and maybe a York peppermint patty on the weekends and a bit of dark chocolate. Energy levels are finally starting to get better. I knew I needed exercise so I got a e bike. I was only able to spin for the first month or so any effort at peddling would leave me dizzy after the rode. After three months I can push more though not a lot on some days. Just shows how humans can really survive all kinds of wacky crap.
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Old 02-26-20, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
If you're going to stay away from processed foods, you may as well starve and eat nothing. Processing food is what makes us human and distinguishes us from other animals. Our human ancestors have been processing food since paleolithic times long before farming became mainstream...Carbs are real food just like protein and fat.
Although you are technically correct you've stretched the meaning to suit your purposes. Yes, using two stones to grind wheat into flour is processing it but taking that same wheat, stripping the hull, turning it into a fine powder, bleaching it white, injecting it with vitamins in an effort to restore some nutrients and then adding in preservatives is what most modern people understand processed to be. The difference between the two is night and day. In the past when I did archaeology we actually took saddle querns and a grinding stone and made flour, it is not the same as king arthur flour by a long shot. Just like making a salad is processing the food but do you really want to start with a base of processed canned spinach?
There's a lot of truth to the fact that the American diet could benefit greatly from a reduction in processed foods that are filled with sugars and particularly the fake ones, sodium, and chemical flavor additives and a move towards local, sustainably grown produce though I'll still take mine with a slight touch of bug spray though I'd prefer far less of a dose then large scale farming likes to use.
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Old 02-26-20, 10:55 PM
  #55  
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So many food issues in America.
Keto works because it resets your body's fat set point downwards by altering amounts of the hormone leptin.You feel full after consuming fewer calories.
Its critical to get the amounts of protein, fat and carb right, and it is tempting to up the carb portion. You really do need to keep carbs ultra low and especially avoid sugar, even sugar in fruit.
Plant based diets have hidden risks. Plants produce v. small amounts of toxins, actual poisons, that the plant uses to repel and deter insect pests. Some types of plant have much more of these than others. When you have a totally plant based diet, you ingest too many of these micro toxins and you actually start to poison your body.
As for fiber, interesting to learn that the Inuits thrived ona carnivore diet without any fiber at all. I never knew that before.
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Old 02-26-20, 11:13 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
So many food issues in America.
Keto works because it resets your body's fat set point downwards by altering amounts of the hormone leptin.You feel full after consuming fewer calories.
Its critical to get the amounts of protein, fat and carb right, and it is tempting to up the carb portion. You really do need to keep carbs ultra low and especially avoid sugar, even sugar in fruit.
Plant based diets have hidden risks. Plants produce v. small amounts of toxins, actual poisons, that the plant uses to repel and deter insect pests. Some types of plant have much more of these than others. When you have a totally plant based diet, you ingest too many of these micro toxins and you actually start to poison your body.
As for fiber, interesting to learn that the Inuits thrived ona carnivore diet without any fiber at all. I never knew that before.
I've been following many keto podcasts etc. and the trend seems to be to get away from many plants for that reason.

The inuit may come across some plant food and fiber on occasion depending on location and season. But often and long it is animals only. Organs, especially the liver, contain many essential micronutrients. Eating animals nose to tail makes sense. In nature no one can afford to leave half the animal wasted.

People who argue argue against carnivore or keto have Mcdonalds eggs and burgers in mind. Obviously that isn't healthy.

There are many varying valid opinions and food science isn't very advanced yet. Obviously in our modern world it is hard to be fully natural. Even pure fruits and vegetables are bred or even genetically modified to be easier to process and have more sugar. Most of the fruit and veggies we buy today didn't exist in their form some hundred years ago, or were much smaller and less sweet. I still try to keep food as close to unprocessed as possible. I cook it, though, and eat cheese. So some processing.....
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Old 02-27-20, 08:50 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
I also think you are very naïve if you think the increased consumption of "candy bars" hasn't made America sick.
Where exactly did I say this?

An over consumption of candy bars will lead to a decline in health, but that doesn't make them poison. Drinking too much water can kill you, but that doesn't mean water is poison. "Unhealthy" is not the same as "poison".
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Old 02-27-20, 08:56 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
Source? You went grocery shopping with everyone who eats low carb?
I look at Keto threads/articles and talk with people I know doing Keto diets. Carbs are always considered the devil but fiber virtually never comes up. And an analysis of the actual foods eaten are almost always devoid of fiber. If the Inuit people did ok on an animal only diet, (I question how well they really did) they most certainly would have done even better with some whole grains, fruits and vegetables added to their diet. No credible modern nutritional studies would argue otherwise.

Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
But often and long it is animals only. Organs, especially the liver, contain many essential micronutrients.
Sure, and like all animal food sources, zero fiber.
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Old 02-27-20, 09:02 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
If you're going to stay away from processed foods, you may as well starve and eat nothing. Processing food is what makes us human and distinguishes us from other animals. Our human ancestors have been processing food since paleolithic times long before farming became mainstream...Carbs are real food just like protein and fat.
Yes. While we're at it, I'd love to know what the definition of "processed" is in this context. I've never seen a formal one.
If I buy a pre-packaged salad, is that processed?
Is my pasteurized milk processed?
What about Greek yogourt?
Is butchered meat processed?
Butchered meat that has been frozen?
Butchered meat that has been dehydrated to make beef jerky?
Is the freeze-dried fruit in my cereal processed?
Are frozen vegetables processed?
Is my tomato sauce processed?
Is V8 processed?
If I blend up a bunch of veggies to make my own version of V8, is that processed?
If I cook something, is that not processing it? What if it's pre-cooked before I get it? How is that different?

I find it fascinating that people rail against processed food without actually having a clear definition of what "processed" food means. Furthermore, the idea that processed = bad (while true in many cases) is overly simplistic.
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Old 02-27-20, 09:08 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Plant based diets have hidden risks. Plants produce v. small amounts of toxins, actual poisons, that the plant uses to repel and deter insect pests. Some types of plant have much more of these than others. When you have a totally plant based diet, you ingest too many of these micro toxins and you actually start to poison your body.
Since humans evolved as omnivores, we'd have to consume a truly massive amount of plants-based food before these toxins (yes, they do exist and they are why trying to feed your pet cat a vegan diet is stupid) would have any noticeable effect. I'm not aware of a single reputable nutrition expert who doesn't think eating a lot of vegetables is unhealthy.

In short, vegetables are also not poison.
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Old 02-27-20, 09:23 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
I look at Keto threads/articles and talk with people I know doing Keto diets. Carbs are always considered the devil but fiber virtually never comes up. And an analysis of the actual foods eaten are almost always devoid of fiber. If the Inuit people did ok on an animal only diet, (I question how well they really did) they most certainly would have done even better with some whole grains, fruits and vegetables added to their diet. No credible modern nutritional studies would argue otherwise.

Sure, and like all animal food sources, zero fiber.
I suspect the Inuit did okay for a number of reasons:
1. It's probably not as bad as many here are fearing. Humans are pretty resilient (we have to be since dietary choice was far, far lower for almost all of human history). It's a very small sample size (n=2 IIRC) but a guy named Stefansson subjected himself to a simulated Inuit diet back in the 20s or 30s and generally did quite well (although they didn't know about things like cholesterol back then so the results are mainly qualitative). People can achieve favourable health outcomes following Keto or veganism. The fact that two seemingly opposite diets can lead to improvement shows how resilient we are.
2. Caloric balance matters a lot. People have improved their health numbers by eating terrible foods (twinkies, McDonald's etc.) but also losing a lot of weight. I doubt there were a lot of fat Inuit people back in the day. And, I suspect this is why diets that are wildly different can both work.
3. In most hunter-gatherer societies, people aren't living long enough to have to worry about things like cancer or heart attacks. You can get to 50 on pretty much any diet.
4. People were likely quite active which matters a lot.

I think you're correct, getting fibre would be beneficial for them. But, it's clear that it isn't 100% needed, or at least, if you don't get enough for a few days, that's not reason for alarm.
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Old 02-27-20, 10:10 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Since humans evolved as omnivores, we'd have to consume a truly massive amount of plants-based food before these toxins (yes, they do exist and they are why trying to feed your pet cat a vegan diet is stupid) would have any noticeable effect. I'm not aware of a single reputable nutrition expert who doesn't think eating a lot of vegetables is unhealthy.

In short, vegetables are also not poison.
Here is an informative article explaining the many types of toxins found in plants. They include protease inhibitors, phytates,lectins,soya toxins,saponins,oxalates,salicylates,phytochemicals.

Mother Nature puts anti-nutritional factors and toxins in grains, nuts, seeds and beans for a variety of reasons. Phytates, for example, block seeds from sprouting prematurely. Protease inhibitors, saponins, lectins and phytoestrogens harm insects, animals and other predators that would otherwise eat too many of them. If evolutionary theories are correct, wounded plants produce extra inhibitors and other anti-nutrients to save the plant species. The idea is to cause predators—including plant-eating humans—to experience slowed growth and diminished reproductive ability.1-4 Although it might sound like a “rotten idea,” squirrels are smart to bury nuts in the ground, then dig them up and eat them weeks and months later. Similarly, people in traditional cultures all over the world process their grains, nuts, seeds and beans by a process akin to pre-digestion before cooking and eating them.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-...nts-bite-back/
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Old 02-27-20, 10:12 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I suspect the Inuit did okay for a number of reasons:
1. It's probably not as bad as many here are fearing. Humans are pretty resilient (we have to be since dietary choice was far, far lower for almost all of human history). It's a very small sample size (n=2 IIRC) but a guy named Stefansson subjected himself to a simulated Inuit diet back in the 20s or 30s and generally did quite well (although they didn't know about things like cholesterol back then so the results are mainly qualitative). People can achieve favourable health outcomes following Keto or veganism. The fact that two seemingly opposite diets can lead to improvement shows how resilient we are.
2. Caloric balance matters a lot. People have improved their health numbers by eating terrible foods (twinkies, McDonald's etc.) but also losing a lot of weight. I doubt there were a lot of fat Inuit people back in the day. And, I suspect this is why diets that are wildly different can both work.
3. In most hunter-gatherer societies, people aren't living long enough to have to worry about things like cancer or heart attacks. You can get to 50 on pretty much any diet.
4. People were likely quite active which matters a lot.

I think you're correct, getting fibre would be beneficial for them. But, it's clear that it isn't 100% needed, or at least, if you don't get enough for a few days, that's not reason for alarm.
I wonder if there is an evolutionary explanation. Generations of living in the Arctic selected for people whose digestive systems did not need fibers. I wonder if modern Inuts suffer ill effects from the fiber in more conventional diets.
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Old 02-27-20, 10:22 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
Radical idea: How about people who don't like Keto and have nothing valuable to contribute just stay in their own threads? Start your vegan, juice, bread, or carb or whatever thread and knock yourselves out....

I get it that there are reasons to not like a specific thing, but no one forces you to participate. I don't like riding BMX bikes, but I don't go into BMX threads and tell them why BMX sucks....
BF is not a fact-free zone. Everyone can have their own opinions, but not their own facts here. To BMX or not is opinion. Vegetables are not poison. That's a fact. We don't want the unwary reader to be misled. Those who post counterfactual stuff can expect to be called on it. These are not private conversations between cult members. It's a public forum, as if we are on stage in front of a large crowd.
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Old 02-27-20, 10:22 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Here is an informative article explaining the many types of toxins found in plants. They include protease inhibitors, phytates,lectins,soya toxins,saponins,oxalates,salicylates,phytochemicals.



https://www.westonaprice.org/health-...nts-bite-back/
I'm not sure what the point of your post is... but I will note that I don't consider the Weston A Price foundation to be particularly reputable. Being dedicated to following the teachings of a dentist from ~70 years ago isn't quite the same as being a current nutrition scientist.
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Old 02-27-20, 10:24 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
I wonder if there is an evolutionary explanation. Generations of living in the Arctic selected for people whose digestive systems did not need fibers. I wonder if modern Inuts suffer ill effects from the fiber in more conventional diets.
It's possible that this has occurred to an extent. Certainly, people who couldn't at least do okay on a fish diet would not have been likely to reproduce.
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Old 02-27-20, 02:21 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Here is an informative article explaining the many types of toxins found in plants. They include protease inhibitors, phytates,lectins,soya toxins,saponins,oxalates,salicylates,phytochemicals.
Keep in mind all these plant "toxins" you are concerned about are concentrated in the animal products you eat because they eat many times more plants than a human eating the plants directly would. Don't forget to add in growth hormones and antibiotics too...
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Old 02-27-20, 04:21 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Yes. While we're at it, I'd love to know what the definition of "processed" is in this context. I've never seen a formal one.
If I buy a pre-packaged salad, is that processed?
Is my pasteurized milk processed?
What about Greek yogourt?
Is butchered meat processed?
Butchered meat that has been frozen?
Butchered meat that has been dehydrated to make beef jerky?
Is the freeze-dried fruit in my cereal processed?
Are frozen vegetables processed?
Is my tomato sauce processed?
Is V8 processed?
If I blend up a bunch of veggies to make my own version of V8, is that processed?
If I cook something, is that not processing it? What if it's pre-cooked before I get it? How is that different?

I find it fascinating that people rail against processed food without actually having a clear definition of what "processed" food means. Furthermore, the idea that processed = bad (while true in many cases) is overly simplistic.
Let me add something here....Many foods in their natural state can be toxic, inedible or unpalatable. Processing is what makes many natural foods edible and safe to eat and allows them to be stored for longer periods of time. Processing can even make some foods more nutritious and healthier than if those foods were just eaten in their natural state.
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Old 02-27-20, 04:24 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I'm not sure what the point of your post is... but I will note that I don't consider the Weston A Price foundation to be particularly reputable. Being dedicated to following the teachings of a dentist from ~70 years ago isn't quite the same as being a current nutrition scientist.
The point is that a plant based diet is laced with natural toxins.The keto diet reduces the amount of these toxins by a huge amount.
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Old 02-27-20, 04:28 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Keep in mind all these plant "toxins" you are concerned about are concentrated in the animal products you eat because they eat many times more plants than a human eating the plants directly would. Don't forget to add in growth hormones and antibiotics too...
Growth hormones, antibiotics, pesticide residues, preservatives, and other added chemicals are contributing to the rise of lifestyle related diseases and our dimishing life expectancy.
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Old 02-27-20, 04:40 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
The point is that a plant based diet is laced with natural toxins.The keto diet reduces the amount of these toxins by a huge amount.
Now I've heard everything!
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Old 02-27-20, 04:44 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Growth hormones, antibiotics, pesticide residues, preservatives, and other added chemicals are contributing to the rise of lifestyle related diseases and our dimishing life expectancy.
Obesity (too much of any food) and sedentary lifestyles are behind these bad outcomes. We've invented so many conveniences that we barly have to move anymore. A few generations ago people ate less, and used their own muscle power to accomplish routine tasks. I have a friend who used to walk across the building several times a day to get files, now he pulls the records up on the computer. Parents get charged with neglect for letting their kids ride bikes.
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Old 02-27-20, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Growth hormones, antibiotics, pesticide residues, preservatives, and other added chemicals are contributing to the rise of lifestyle related diseases and our dimishing life expectancy.
Following a Keto diet doesn't make you immune from ingesting chemicals...All those things you mention are found in your "keto approved" foods which you buy at your local grocery store, that's why eating a lot of fibre is important for health, fibre cleanses your body and supports healthy gut bacteria.....Also realize that the " wild caught" fish which Arctic Inuit eat are contaminated with high levels of mercury and other pollutants which are found on the ocean where they catch their fish.
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Old 02-27-20, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Growth hormones, antibiotics, pesticide residues, preservatives, and other added chemicals are contributing to the rise of lifestyle related diseases and our dimishing life expectancy.
That is humorous. Ever hear of organic food? The reason I make as much of my diet organic as is available in that form is that I also think those things are not good for you. OTOH, no one can prove it, though it is proven that people who eat non-organic do have these residues present in their bodies. Of course all animals pass along these chemicals to their predators, and in fact concentrate them. So one assumes that for sure, everything you eat is certified organic as you are at a much higher risk than are plant eaters.

As far as anyone can tell, these chemicals do not contribute to "lifestyle related diseases," whatever the harm they may do. Human lifespan is increasing across the developed world, which mostly does not eat organic. There's one big exception to that: the US. However it has nothing to do with chemicals in the diet, it's entirely do to low income people not getting adequate health case, gun suicides, and the use of opiod drugs, especially injectables. People with good incomes in this country have the same increasing lifespan as everywhere else.

There's also a case to be made that the availability of cheap calories in the US causes them to be a large part of the diet of poor people and this doesn't help. I know of no research which substantiates that hypothesis, which is not to say it isn't true.

Be the above as it may, your claim of harm does not make any sort of case for eating more animal products, quite the contrary.
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Old 02-27-20, 06:40 PM
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I really appreciate the contributions from some folks here. Thank you very much.
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
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