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Trouble Sleeping After Longish Rides

Old 03-10-20, 02:52 AM
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Trouble Sleeping After Longish Rides

Am currently adding mileage in preparation for a two-day ride this summer. Current long ride is around 5 hours, a bit more. Did it today, finished up at around 6 pm. Was completely exhausted and falling asleep by 7 and went to bed--way earlier than usual for me. Crappy sleep for maybe two hours. Pretty sore here and there. Anyway, just totally wide awake now at nearly 2 in the morning. Sleep, nowhere in sight.

My question is, do any of you have trouble sleeping after whatever is a longish ride for you? Am I just too amped up with cortisol and stuf? Will it get better?

Just wondering.
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Old 03-10-20, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
Am currently adding mileage in preparation for a two-day ride this summer. Current long ride is around 5 hours, a bit more. Did it today, finished up at around 6 pm. Was completely exhausted and falling asleep by 7 and went to bed--way earlier than usual for me. Crappy sleep for maybe two hours. Pretty sore here and there. Anyway, just totally wide awake now at nearly 2 in the morning. Sleep, nowhere in sight.

My question is, do any of you have trouble sleeping after whatever is a longish ride for you? Am I just too amped up with cortisol and stuf? Will it get better?

Just wondering.
Sounds normal to me. Sometimes after a long ride my whole body feels like it's buzzing somehow. This works out pretty well on multi day rides, but the sleep deficit starts to add up.
My solution, if I wake up before midnight and I need to sleep until the alarm goes off, is to get up and eat. I'll often finish the dinner I hadn't finished earlier. That usually helps me get back to sleep.
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Old 03-10-20, 07:14 AM
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It's probably not a great idea to go to sleep really early. I usually go to bed somewhere between 11-12, and I think going to bed a 7 would be a mistake. Veg out in front of a computer until 9 if this happens again.

Also, if you wake up at 2, don't get up. Lie in bed and tell yourself that you are still recovering at about the same rate as you would be if you were sleeping. The funny thing is, I have felt like I was lying in bed not sleeping but garmin tells me later that I was. It's really common to have continuity of thought across sleep cycles. On longer rides, when I just get one 90 minute sleep cycle, I have experienced this a lot. It's like the sleep didn't happen, although I know it did because of the clock.
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Old 03-10-20, 07:22 AM
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If you are completely exhausted from a 5 or 6 hour ride, perhaps ride a bit slower? Lots of saddle time will help getting ready for longer rides.

Could waking up early be unrelated, perhaps indigestion from something you ate for supper?
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Old 03-10-20, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
It's probably not a great idea to go to sleep really early. I usually go to bed somewhere between 11-12, and I think going to bed a 7 would be a mistake. Veg out in front of a computer until 9 if this happens again.

Also, if you wake up at 2, don't get up. Lie in bed and tell yourself that you are still recovering at about the same rate as you would be if you were sleeping. The funny thing is, I have felt like I was lying in bed not sleeping but garmin tells me later that I was. It's really common to have continuity of thought across sleep cycles. On longer rides, when I just get one 90 minute sleep cycle, I have experienced this a lot. It's like the sleep didn't happen, although I know it did because of the clock.
I'm not arguing with what works for you. But please note that actual sleep provides better recovery than awake time, and also note that sleep experts recommend NOT laying in bed awake for significant periods of time. These are all easily googled facts.
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Old 03-10-20, 08:51 AM
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that's not what I have seen. And like I said, most people aren't actually lying in bed awake for as long as they think

The sleep specialists in this article agree with me. First link I found by googling the subject
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...ts-on-insomnia

It's not recommended for people that suffer from insomnia. Which does not include most of us

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Old 03-10-20, 09:19 AM
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If I went to bed at 7pm, I'd be up at 2am as well. Because that's like 7 hours of sleep, which my body would reckon as a luxury. Since the children showed up, I'm asleep at 11-11:30, and up by 5:30, seven days a week, no alarm clock needed.

I think the OP conflated fatigue with being tired. Sometimes I feel like I'm perpetually fatigued, but I'm not especially tired. On a day when the ride was long/tough, I go to bed at my normal time, there's just a bit more "doing nothing" in the intervening hours.

So my non-medical analysis is "went to bed too early."
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Old 03-10-20, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
that's not what I have seen. And like I said, most people aren't actually lying in bed awake for as long as they think

The sleep specialists in this article agree with me. First link I found by googling the subject
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...ts-on-insomnia

It's not recommended for people that suffer from insomnia. Which does not include most of us
I've pasted the relevant passages below.

The first expert ("GL") recommends that a person should not lay in bed longer than 20 minutes if unable to sleep; the second expert ("GM") disagrees, but acknowledges that it is the standard recommendation.

Both acknowledge that sleeping is superior to just laying in bed: GL acknowledges it explicitly, GM acknowledges it implicitly (laying in bed is the "next best thing," i.e. not the best thing).

Again, the standard recommendation is to not lay in bed longer than about 20 mins if unable to sleep...And physiologically, sleep is the most effective method of muscle recovery after exercise -- scads of peer-reviewed studies have established this. I can't believe we're even debating the second point, actually.



What are the best cures for insomnia?

GL If you don’t fall asleep within 20 minutes of going to bed, get up, go to another room and do a calming activity, then go back to bed. If you are lying in bed unable to sleep, your brain will soon start associating lying in bed with being awake.

Is lying in bed and resting with your eyes closed almost as good as sleeping?

GL No. Lying awake in bed rests your body, but it doesn’t rest your brain.

GM Yes, it’s definitely the next best thing. That’s a huge part of what I teach people: to lie in bed, rest and be still. There is a big movement called stimulus control therapy, which is about getting people out of bed if they have been awake for more than 15 minutes. I’m not a fan. I teach people how to stay in bed.

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Old 03-10-20, 11:03 AM
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Everyone should take the counsel of people they trust. I will take resting my body and not my mind over resting neither, ymmv. I think the OP needed to rest his body.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is the long distance forum. I guarantee that any sleep specialist would be horrified with at least parts of my approach to sleep, which I learned from other randonneurs and then verified on myself. My sig used to contain something I got from another randonneur, "it's a great sport when you can make up for a lack of ability with a lack of sleep." I would say that nobody with chronic insomnia would ever post here, but taking up randonneuring might cure some people. I certainly learned how to sleep better.

I recently started recording my sleep cycles as reported by my garmin watch. Should be interesting once the longer rides start this year. Particularly the aftermath of the 400k and 600k.
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Old 03-10-20, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
If you are completely exhausted from a 5 or 6 hour ride, perhaps ride a bit slower? Lots of saddle time will help getting ready for longer rides.

Could waking up early be unrelated, perhaps indigestion from something you ate for supper?
Oh, yeah. Could be a bunch of things. I have pretty hardcore bipolar disorder, which sometimes makes sleep hard no matter what... But lately, it's been a non-issue, so this was kind of out of left field. Thanks!!
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Old 03-10-20, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Everyone should take the counsel of people they trust. I will take resting my body and not my mind over resting neither, ymmv. I think the OP needed to rest his body.
I agree wholeheartedly! Hence my initial disclaimer that I would not dispute something if it works for you.

It can be difficult (or impossible) to achieve the optimum at all times - especially in an extreme activity such as ultra-distance cycling. But I do think it's useful to understand the science and the best-practice, in order to best structure our accommodations and adjustments.
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Old 03-10-20, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
My question is, do any of you have trouble sleeping after whatever is a longish ride for you? Am I just too amped up with cortisol and stuf? Will it get better?
Yes, I've experienced that sort of thing.

I've always been a "morning" person. I've also always felt better throughout the day and slept better at night when my harder and/or longer workouts are done early in the day. Usually, harder efforts late in the day result in my being "amped up" for hours, which has reliably fooled with my sleep no matter how tired I might have felt.

Will it get better? I suppose that's only likely if I somehow train my body to tolerate late-in-the-day harder workouts with sleep soon after. I've no idea what I could do to "train" the body+mind to tolerate that better, other than simply doing it and hoping there would be a change. Doesn't sound like a good bet, to me. At least, in my case.

I'm a morning person ... and I'm good with that. Early workouts for me, whenever possible. And I sleep all the better because of it, so far as I can tell. Have for decades.
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Old 03-10-20, 04:59 PM
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I don't sleep well, but that's not the same as chronic insomnia, which I'm pretty sure I don't have.

If I wake up well before it's time to get up, I try to focus on why I'm not sleeping. If there's a possible cause, I try to deal with that. I don't necessarily need a correct diagnosis, just something I can do something about. I can go use the toilet. I can drink some water. I can take a shower. I can go down to the kitchen for leftover pizza or milk and cookies. So I'll usually try one of those things. And something will usually work. Stretching helps too.

After 400 km on the bike, I can usually sleep well enough. 200 is iffy, though.
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Old 03-12-20, 04:48 PM
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Restless sleep is one symptom of overtraining. How do you feel otherwise? Eating enough?
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Old 03-12-20, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by skitlets View Post
Restless sleep is one symptom of overtraining. How do you feel otherwise? Eating enough?
Yeah, diet should be okay. Been sick for a week, but just a cold.
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Old 03-13-20, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by skitlets View Post
Restless sleep is one symptom of overtraining. How do you feel otherwise? Eating enough?
Yes, but "overtraining" is not the right word in this case. "Overreaching" would be better. But it absolutely is a sign. Overreaching is actually a good thing, but you have to be sure to recover from it, not pile on more training right away.

Illness is a strain just like training is. Job stress also. It adds up. Watch your HR while riding if you do so in the next couple of days. See if it comes up normally when you push. Rest more if it doesn't.
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Old 03-13-20, 07:49 PM
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If I have a long ride, especially one that I push the pace, I need to take a certain medication to sleep. If I don't I am just like you.
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Old 03-13-20, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
Yeah, diet should be okay. Been sick for a week, but just a cold.
Overtraining is a result of cumulative fatigue that your body cannot adequately recover from. That cold could be sapping more resources than you'd expect, especially if you're training hard and already near your current recovery limits. I know I am starting to red line when my sleep is as you described, my appetite is down, or if I catch a cold, so I dial it back for a week. I primarily compete in a strength sport and that deload week happens once every ~8 weeks. Combined with that cold, it sounds like you may have pushed the intensity a little past your recovery limits.
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Old 03-13-20, 11:30 PM
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The intensity and focus of the road. Sometimes it won't go away.

Sometimes after a long ride I'll lie down and close my eyes and the next thing I know the alarm is going off. Other times I'll lay there for what seems like hours. I can't correlate it to anything, it just is.
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Old 03-13-20, 11:53 PM
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I'll sleep like a log after a long ride, or hard activity. Although, perhaps as @DrIsotope mentions, still I'd limit to maybe 7 to 9 hours or so. So, get to bed too early, and up too early.

I'm really looking forward to some longer summer days.
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Old 03-15-20, 07:16 AM
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I get the buzzing-muscles-feeling-can't-sleep sometimes too. One thing (that any actual medical professionals would be horrified by, but I've seen lots of randos swear by) is that, if you're OK with alcohol, one beer can quiet the buzzes without being enough booze to impact recovery/give you a hangover/etc.

After my first 300k (as a slowpoke, so it was well into the night when I finished), I got a ride home, showered quickly, and passed out, and woke up a few hours later at 4am ravenously hungry and unable to sleep more until I'd eaten and digested. Learned that lesson to always put some food in me; I make sure to have something I know I can coax myself to choke down even if I finish feeling the opposite of hungry.

Also, I find I often can't sleep for about an hour after being on the road, period, whether driving or riding, because being in the aware state one needs to navigate a landscape filled with other cars amps my brain up.
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Old 03-18-20, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by antimonysarah View Post
I get the buzzing-muscles-feeling-can't-sleep sometimes too. One thing (that any actual medical professionals would be horrified by, but I've seen lots of randos swear by) is that, if you're OK with alcohol, one beer can quiet the buzzes without being enough booze to impact recovery/give you a hangover/etc.

After my first 300k (as a slowpoke, so it was well into the night when I finished), I got a ride home, showered quickly, and passed out, and woke up a few hours later at 4am ravenously hungry and unable to sleep more until I'd eaten and digested. Learned that lesson to always put some food in me; I make sure to have something I know I can coax myself to choke down even if I finish feeling the opposite of hungry.

Also, I find I often can't sleep for about an hour after being on the road, period, whether driving or riding, because being in the aware state one needs to navigate a landscape filled with other cars amps my brain up.
After my first double, I also woke up hungry in the middle of the night. There was left-over pasta from my after-ride dinner. I ate it with my hands, standing in front of the sink, naked. Worked great, went right back to sleep. My stomach also won't tolerate much food immediately after a long tough ride.
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Old 03-18-20, 12:35 PM
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I have the same issue sleeping after big efforts that finish late in the day. I'm tired, but like rhm said, I'm 'buzzing'.

For example, I've done two DAMn - 240+ miles in one day; it's shocking to finish 40+ hours without sleep including nearly 20 hours of effort ... and finally get to my bed and can't stay asleep. I find myself just focused on relaxing in a dark bed, keeping all tech off.
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Old 05-02-20, 02:07 PM
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Occasionally I will take an ibuprofen -- when the effects of a long ride may result in minor swelling, it seems to help me get back to sleep, too.
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Old 05-08-20, 01:39 PM
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I've had a vaguely related experience. Your heart rate and metabolism remain elevated for a while after a ride. If I wrap up a ride in the evening, my heart rate might still be high when it's time to go to bed, and that makes it hard for me to go to sleep.
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