eschlwc

yeah, i've only had three bikes with campy bbs.

had i come across an 11-bearing retainer in one of the 32 bikes i've refurbished, i probably would have used it.

Kactus

I use Dura-Ace grease for bearings and never have a problem with the loose bearings falling out.

Lazyass

Does anyone know what would cause a problem with a headset constantly coming loose running loose bearings? That happened to me after I removed the cages and I ended up having to use locktite.

jimmuller 

If you are tightening the locknut securely to the race then it shouldn't come loose unless either something is wearing or the races are still seating themselves into the head tube.

RobbieTunes

The tabbed washer is supposed to stop this from happening. Make sure you have a tabbed washer between the top cut nut and the top lock nut. That way, they cannot turn in unison. Then, when adjusting, you tight then very tight against each other (meaning hold the bottom one in place, adjusted right, and bring that top lock nut right down on it, tight. Without the tabbed washer, they will always work loose.

RobbieTunes

The race should be the "adjusted" nut, then you hold that in place, and tighten the top nut down tight against the tabbed washer.

pfaustus

Fat Fingers ---> Tweezers for loose bearings

6 Pc Fine Point Tweezer Set

Lazyass

Oh yeah that's how I do it. And it has a tabbed washer, everything is there. I've adjusted threaded headsets a billion times. It would just come loose after I removed the bearing cages, I've never been able to figure out why because there should be no reason the cages had anything to do with it.

sailorbenjamin

I've been known to use a caged bearing on the fixed cup side and loose bearings on the easy to reach side. yeah, fat fingers.

2manybikes

Caged bearings roll with a little less friction than loose balls. Two loose balls next to each other, if they bump one side is rotating one way and the side on the next ball is spinning the opposite direction. When a ball hits the cage it's one spinning ball against something stopped. A little better. That may not have anything to do with why the manufacturer uses caged bearings. I think it may be lighter too. but I don't know. There must be a weight weenie somewhere who knows the answer. It probably does have more to do with speed or ease of assembly.

But lighter and less friction how can you go wrong?

MetinUz

My bottom bracket came loose during a ride. I was able to screw the fixed cup by hand and roll gently to the next bike shop. I would probably be in trouble if the bearings were not caged.

eschlwc

not buying this.

verktyg 

@JohnDThompson +1

Original Campy BB bearing cages came stamped CAMPAGNOLO BREV. INTER.... They had 11 1/4" ball bearings.



Other sources made those type cages too. I've even seen a few BB bearing cages with 10 balls but most were 9. Back during the bike boom Gitane used plastic ball retainers with 9 balls.

But... as I mentioned above, aside from Campy caged retainers, there's no guarantee of what quality bearings were used in the cages.


I find it amusing to say the least that people fret over getting bearing retainers/caged bearings for their headsets and BBs. Any quick eBay search will net USED caged ball bearings for listed crazy prices! DOH!

When ever I bought a frame and the seller pulled the fork for shipping I've told them to throw away the old ball bearings! I buy Grade 25 Chrome Steel loose balls in bags of 100 dirt cheap on the Bay.

Reusing bicycle ball bearings is like taking a shower and putting on dirty clothes - or worse!


@MKahrl If I don't pull out the fixed cup, I turn the bike on it's side and use 9"-10" tweezers to put the balls into the BB. You can get these cheap on eBay.



verktyg

Chas.

eschlwc

i do both.

79pmooney

And, with their very short necks, they are very good at slipping leashes.

Ben

79pmooney

Sounds like one too many bearings. A race can look just fine with the balls installed but one too many because while you can still see them, the cone hasn't forced them into the bearing circle. But doing this will cause all kinds of weird problems. Open it up and pull one out of each race. My money's on that will do the trick.

Ben

verktyg 

@eschlwc "not buying this." +1

@2manybikes "Caged bearings roll with a little less friction than loose balls."

Water from the Nile River is wetter than water from the Amazon!


The rotational speed of ball bearings in bikes NEVER approach the RPMs that commercial cartridge bearing used in machinery and transportation application run at!

Even wheel bearings in a bike coming downhill at 40+ mph never get close to the 1,200 to 40,000+ rpms that commercial bearings are designed to operate at.


Bicycles were one of the first application for ball bearings. The cup and cone loose bearing design used in most bicycles dates back to the late 1800's.

"Jules Suriray, a Parisian bicycle mechanic, designed the first radial style ball bearing in 1869,[2] which was then fitted to the winning bicycle ridden by James Moore in the world's first bicycle road race, Paris-Rouen, in November 1869".

One of the advantages of cup and cone style of bearings is that they're self centering and they don't require accurately machined mounting surfaces.


Bottom bracket bearings undergo continuous loading and unloading side to side as we pedal. Having more balls in the BB distributes the reciprocating loads better.

Standard 9 ball BB cages/retainers concentrate the load over a smaller area of the bearing tracks in the cups and spindles resulting in faster wear.


Modern commercial bearing used in machinery and transportation applications use bearing retainers to keep the bearings separate to distribute forces over a wide area.



But... the balls rotate in a uniform direction but the contact points are continuously changing. Good video:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_b...allBearing.gif

verktyg

Chas.

Chombi1 

The person who invented caged bearings had sausage fingers.........

verktyg 

Several possibilities. First, the top lock nut should have the maximum amount of thread engagement. Ideally at least 5 turns minimum.

Here's a headset with more stack height than steerer threads. There's only about 2 turns in this situation.



Figuring stack height:



Flicker album see details below pictures:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/282672...57625424641013


In the opposite situation it's possible that your top lock nut may be bottoming out on the steerer before it tightens against the spacer. A thicker space would fix the problem.


Another possibility, steerer threads were not always accurately machined. Also the top threads could have been damaged by cross threading or use of a poor quality headset or chased by someone with a steerer die.

You can check out the diameter of the threads at the top of the steerer and also at the bottom of the threads to make sure the steerer isn't tapered.


Loctite can fix a lot of these kinds of problems. If you use that method, carefully clean the headset and steerer threads with an evaporating solvent. I use 91% isopropyl alcohol.

Use a small amount of Loctite 242 Blue which is designed to be easily disassembled.

Loctite Threadlocker Blue 242 from Loctite Adhesives

verktyg

Chas.

verktyg 

So you take "electric showers"? TURN OFF THE LIGHTS - CHANGE CLOTHES!


verktyg

Chas.

Lazyass

The thing is, this headset (Tange SE-II) was fine for 23 years until about 6 months ago when I was repacking it as I had done multiple times before and decided to remove the bearing cages. Then on the first ride it came loose about 10-15 miles in, I could actually tighten the upper bearing race by hand. I got home, readjusted it and cranked down the locknut as tight as I could. The next ride the same thing happened. Then ride 3 and 4 it happened. Finally I used the locktite and it's been fine since.

The only thing I can think of is that I may have put too many bearings in and that somehow it makes it come loose? I really don't know, it's weird. If I recall I put as many bearings as I could fit and then removed one.

jimmuller 

Have you changed the type of grease you use? Maybe the new stuff is thicker enough that when you installed the bearings you still had a pretty thick film of grease between the bearings and the races at any or all four of the bearing/race interfaces.

Lazyass

No, I've always used the Park stuff. The bearings were good, the races weren't pitted, nothing. It turns perfectly smooth when it's adjusted. I just can't think of any logical explanation for it, I mean it got so loose I was literally tightening the upper race by hand while riding. I'm tearing the whole bike apart tomorrow so I'll look at everything again.

*edit* Maybe the threads are getting worn? I bought the bike in '99 and have had the headset apart maybe 10 times or so.

2manybikes

Two balls next to each other spinning in the same direction would be like two bike wheels rolling in the same direction, having the contact points one going one way and one the other way. Like two bike wheels brought together rolling the same direction, the back wheel contacting the front has that side traveling "down" the front will have that side going "up".

Who said it was a big factor that made a big difference? I was very careful to say it is only a small effect.

verktyg 

When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.... Sounds like you may have a "zebra" problem!



Zebra answers:

Is your headset alloy or steel? I have several bikes with alloy headsets that occasionally come loose. I've written it off as vibration or maybe worn and/or stretched headset threads. I'll probably Loctite them next time with a small amount of Threadlocker 242 Blue....

When I reassemble a headset I like to remove any grease off of the steerer threads above the upper adjustable cup. Water doesn't seem to get into headsets very often in the top end so rust in the threads isn't a much of a problem. No lube, no move!


Back in the 70's I ran across the problem pictured below several times. Once on one of my beater bikes and several customer's bikes. They were all lower priced bike boom models but it could happen on any bike:



Pictures I found on the web. The fist picture is a Cinelli fork, the next is was probably a late 60's Raleigh Pro???

I'd tighten the headset and after a short ride it would come loose again until finally all the was holding the fork on was the brake bolt through the fork crown!

The cause was poor brazing due to improperly cleaned steerer and fork crown. Some er, a... less skilled or knowledgeable people believed that brazing flux was enough to clean grease, rust and corrosion off of the parts when they reached brazing temperature.... On the right hand picture you can clearly see how little brass entered the joint!

Look under the crown to see if the steerer is pull up out of the crown.


The last zebra was a very rare case. I bought a late 60's Bertin partially equipped frame that had a late 80's Shimano alloy headset.



While assembling the bike I decided to pull the alloy headset and replace it with a proper Stronglight P3 headset. When I pulled the top lock nut and adjustable cup off I found someone had wrapped Teflon pipe tape around the steerer to make up for the gap! They put an Inch size headset on a 25mm French steerer! Shade tree mechanic!!!

With correct Stronglight headset:



Good like finding a solution....


verktyg

Chas.