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Cook stove fuel

Old 02-06-21, 11:16 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I do not know how you plan to get to and from your starting and ending points...But if your stove or any other stove parts like fuel bottles smell like fuel, they might be confiscated which you probably did not know.
We are flying and you are right: I didnít know (and wouldnít have guessed) that residual fuel smell alone would be enough to result in possible confiscation. Thanks for yet another tip I can add to my notes!
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Old 02-06-21, 11:34 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Jno View Post
We are flying and you are right: I didnít know (and wouldnít have guessed) that residual fuel smell alone would be enough to result in possible confiscation. Thanks for yet another tip I can add to my notes!
ya, you really have to be super careful about any smell.
The last few times Ive flown with my Trangia, I've washed the stove (which is a glorified fondue burner sort of thing) itself out with nice smelling liquid soap, to be sure to eliminate any alcohol smell, as with the bottle I was taking to put alcohol into.
It would be a real pain to have to find and buy a new stove at the start of a trip. Even back in the 90s when I first started flying to bike touring destinations, I wouldnt take my liquid fuel stove, but borrow a propane type that uses the blue screw on containers, as the actual stove part would never have any smell (I probably opened the valve or anything to let it completely air out to really make sure there wouldnt be any chance of propane smell).
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Old 02-06-21, 02:09 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
That varies from place to place. Nearly all the developed parks here in Parts Unknown have prohibitions on gathering combustibles. I can well imagine hoards of hunter/gatherers would quickly denude the natural setting.
Even dead and downed wood?
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Old 02-06-21, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Even dead and downed wood?
In the National Parks it's a definite no no. There are signs specifically against gathering deadfall and ground cover. If you are having a fire and a park employee comes by you could/would get a fine.
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Old 02-06-21, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
In the National Parks it's a definite no no. There are signs specifically against gathering deadfall and ground cover. If you are having a fire and a park employee comes by you could/would get a fine.
If you have one of those twig burning stoves, they do make special wood pellets for them. I don't know how big a sack you have to tote along for a parks tour, but it seems to me to defeat the purpose of it.
In the Canadian National Parks, they don't really want you there anyway, best to plan a tour somewhere else.
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Old 02-06-21, 10:31 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
In the National Parks it's a definite no no. There are signs specifically against gathering deadfall and ground cover. If you are having a fire and a park employee comes by you could/would get a fine.
Interesting. Whatís the reasoning? Maybe to discourage people from starting fires? Iíve never seen that in government-run places in the US.
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Old 02-06-21, 10:39 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Interesting. Whatís the reasoning? Maybe to discourage people from starting fires? Iíve never seen that in government-run places in the US.
In the provincial parks, its to protect the campground contractor who makes money by selling you fire wood.
In the National Parks, it is probably for ecological reasons. There are bugs and such that eat dead wood and critters that shelter under the twigs.
They would likely be happier if you didn't start a fire, but the campsites all have some kind of metal fire grate and fires are allowed unless there is a fire ban.
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Old 02-07-21, 02:03 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Interesting. What’s the reasoning? Maybe to discourage people from starting fires? I’ve never seen that in government-run places in the US.
In the NP's they are very focused on maintaining natural habitat. Rather than a money making venture for tourists they are tasked with maintaining the park in a way that preserves the habitat that will allow it to remain viable indefinitely. In a way, people are seen as visitors to the animals home.

It's a numbers thing as you have to multiply the amount of fuel each person uses starting a fire by the number of annual visitors. They all have fire wood available in wood lots (chopped up Jack Pine) so people don't have to do that. Mostly you need a hatchet to split but a person could find smaller bits for a twig stove easily enough.

They are also very strict about maintaining a clean camp. No cook gear on picnic tables, coolers in cars etc... There are bear boxes for hikers/bikers. The sites are spaced out so wildlife can travel through campsites instead of around them.

It all sounds authoritarian but the experience of being close to nature is pretty cool. Below is a pic I took on the way to the outhouse.

Provincial Parks are the same but they are funded differently and often suffer from private/public partnerships that create issues of needing to suppliment the operators cost, who are often contractors. They also don't have the same overarching philosophical approach or support. But the ecological impact mitigation strategy is the same - probably worse, or more needed as there are more visitors per area than the NP's.

Also, there is a time each year (unless the fire threat is low) when fires are forbidden provincially. During that time you can only use stoves with shut offs as mentioned earlier. That never bothers me as I seldom want a fire when biking anyways. After eating I usually hit the sack and listen to music. But it's a consideration against using a wood powered stove in the summer if your plans include travelling through the parks.


Last edited by Happy Feet; 02-07-21 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 02-07-21, 09:18 AM
  #34  
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Several years ago I was camped at a US National Park that prohibited campfires in some of their campgrounds. And someone at a shelter next to ours in a campground that prohibited fires had a small fire in a little gizmo on his picnic table, for a couple hours all he did was feed little twigs into it. I could not figure out what was going on. A few months later I saw on REI website that they were selling some tiny little wood stove that you theoretically could burn a fire in it to power a USB charger, so I assumed that was what he was doing.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
In the National Parks it's a definite no no. There are signs specifically against gathering deadfall and ground cover. If you are having a fire and a park employee comes by you could/would get a fine.
Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Interesting. Whatís the reasoning? Maybe to discourage people from starting fires? Iíve never seen that in government-run places in the US.
Here in USA I have been to lots of National Parks that ban or restrict fires in some campsites or campgrounds. But Forest Service campsites are usually less stringent. I think state parks are more likely to have local decision making based on risk.

These two photos were Canadian National Park sites I camped at on Cape Breton Island in 2019, they allowed fires, but since I did not have a fire during my entire trip, I do not remember anything about firewood rules.





But here in USA where there are lots of problems with a variety of pests attacking trees, such as Emerald Ash Borer, you often find parks will prohibit bringing firewood to the park from outside park boundaries. In those cases it is to limit spread of pests, not an effort to make a few more dollars.
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Old 02-07-21, 12:47 PM
  #35  
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Golly, I love campfires: the warmth, the light, watching the embers burn, poking & stoking. Wired into my medulla oblongata over the last 75,000 years?

That said, I had a miserable visit to Yosemite Valley some years ago. Every other camping family lit a smoky little fire. By dusk, the air was choking and visibility was low - and since it was no longer pleasant to be outdoors in this lovely, unique place they all disappeared into their RVs! Our impact on our surroundings has really put me off campfires.

"I never build a campfire. I don't like smelling like smoked fish." - Heinz StŁcke

Originally Posted by skookum View Post
If you have one of those twig burning stoves, they do make special wood pellets for them.
Cheaper are the wood pellets for Traeger Grills, and cheaper yet is pine-based cat litter (but do check the ingredients!) As you mention, I don't see this as practical for cycletouring or backpacking, but I've considered it for car and canoe camping. I admire the way the little camping gasifier wood stoves burn with very, very little smoke and tiny amounts of residual ash.

Car camping to a park with fire rings I've been known to bring a bag of charcoal and my Dutch oven. I've actually wasted a few moments of my life trying to translate that into practical application on a bike tour, but keep concluding it's a fool's errand.

Last edited by tcs; 02-07-21 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 02-07-21, 08:51 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Golly, I love campfires: the warmth, the light, watching the embers burn, poking & stoking. Wired into my medulla oblongata over the last 75,000 years?
Same here. Love reading by the campfire at night after cooking a nice dinner, especially if I have some wine to go with.
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Old 02-23-21, 10:58 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Jno View Post
... My question for the forum is, how available is white gas (Coleman gas)? Will we need to hit cities likely to have camping stores or Canadian tires, or is it available in smaller stops in rural settings?
There are multi-fuel choices, and nicely compact. MSR burner/hose/bottle is surprisingly stable and light.

ACCESSIBLE Fuel choices "Coleman" stove fuel (i.e. While gas, Naphtha, Lighter fluid).

MULTI-FUEL stoves might also be capable of burning alcohol, and might even function using 90% isopropyl alcohol. There are alcohol stoves but they tend to be bulky and suffer in the BTU department.

Then there's altitude...

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-adv...ing-stove.html
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Old 02-23-21, 05:26 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by UncleG View Post
There are multi-fuel choices, and nicely compact. MSR burner/hose/bottle is surprisingly stable and light.

ACCESSIBLE Fuel choices "Coleman" stove fuel (i.e. While gas, Naphtha, Lighter fluid).

MULTI-FUEL stoves might also be capable of burning alcohol, and might even function using 90% isopropyl alcohol. There are alcohol stoves but they tend to be bulky and suffer in the BTU department.

Then there's altitude...

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-adv...ing-stove.html
I would not assume a multi-fuel stove will burn alcohol unless the manufacturer specifically says it will.

Many stoves require jet changes to burn different fuels because the different jet sizes change the air to fuel ratio, alcohol has a ratio quite different than most other fuels.

I have an old Optimus 111T, that stove can also burn alcohol besides white gas and kerosene, but it requires an air restrictor tube to do so, that tube reduces the air to fuel ratio in the stove. I do not have the tube and have never tried to obtain one.

Some plastics do not play well with alcohol, and that may include seals in stoves and the pumps. I would avoid trying it in a stove not rated for it.
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Old 03-10-21, 09:58 PM
  #39  
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I use regular gasoline in my Coleman stove and it works fine. But it does make the bottom of the cookware very black.

Walmart and Canadian Tire both sell Coleman fuel in the smaller 1 quart containers. The Canadian Tire website is very good at telling you which stores have what in stock. Smaller towns often have a Home Hardware and those sell Coleman fuel too. In a pinch you can buy a can of paint thinner.

The 1 pound disposable propane cylinders are available everywhere. I know they suck because they don't get recycled. But the neat thing about these guys is the same cylinder can be used for a stove or a lantern. And the lantern can take the damp chill out of your tent before you go to sleep.

Regarding fire bans I think this only applies to open fires. If you want to pack a portable rocket stove to cook meals using wood fuel that should be ok. In either case they don't produce much smoke.
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Old 03-13-21, 08:45 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by homeless in ca. View Post
Regarding fire bans I think this only applies to open fires. If you want to pack a portable rocket stove to cook meals using wood fuel that should be ok. In either case they don't produce much smoke.
Fire bans vary with the locale, but most places I am familiar with do not allow any stove that doesn't have a shut off valve. That rules out most alcohol stoves and any wood stoves that I know of. My typical pop can stoves are almost always banned by any fire ban I have run across. If I think a fire ban is likely I take my Pocket Rocket, SVEA123, or Whisperlite International depending on the trip.
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Old 03-13-21, 01:58 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by staehpj1 View Post
Fire bans vary with the locale, but most places I am familiar with do not allow any stove that doesn't have a shutoff valve. That rules out most alcohol stoves and any wood stoves that I know of.
Also rules out Esbit stoves, even though the little solid fuel tablets (at least the ones I'm familiar with, there are several manufacturers these days) can be blown out like a candle.

Esbit-style stoves don't really match up with cross-country tours, but they're not bad for ultralight S24O.

Last edited by tcs; 03-13-21 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 03-14-21, 12:14 AM
  #42  
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Even charcoal bbqs during some bans. As noted, nothing that can't be turned off.
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Old 03-26-21, 07:05 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by staehpj1 View Post
Fire bans vary with the locale, but most places I am familiar with do not allow any stove that doesn't have a shut off valve. That rules out most alcohol stoves and any wood stoves that I know of. My typical pop can stoves are almost always banned by any fire ban I have run across. If I think a fire ban is likely I take my Pocket Rocket, SVEA123, or Whisperlite International depending on the trip.
Good to know about the alcohol stoves being verboten.

You can still pack a Bic lighting and a couple of metal skewers on the off chance you happen upon a campground with fire pits.
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Old 03-26-21, 07:19 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by homeless in ca. View Post

You can still pack a Bic lighting and a couple of metal skewers on the off chance you happen upon a campground with fire pits.
Wut
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Old 03-27-21, 01:20 AM
  #45  
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I have flown with Trangia stoves many times, washing them out meticulously to avoid confiscation.

This is maybe the main reason I have never flown with a multi-fuel burner. A replacement Trangia burner costs just $10 or so and theoretically could be mailed to me from back home in days.
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Old 03-27-21, 04:13 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I would not assume a multi-fuel stove will burn alcohol unless the manufacturer specifically says it will.

Many stoves require jet changes to burn different fuels because the different jet sizes change the air to fuel ratio, alcohol has a ratio quite different than most other fuels.
I thought the different nozzles were for preheating the fuel. The tighter the nozzle the hotter the fuel would get before igniting thus allowing the use of even vegetable oil as fuel. Though the multifuel we have is a trangia which is a roarer plate type I believe. So maybe it's different?

Anyways trangia forbids the use of alcohol in the multifuel system.
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Old 03-27-21, 04:46 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by homeless in ca. View Post
Good to know about the alcohol stoves being verboten.

You can still pack a Bic lighting and a couple of metal skewers on the off chance you happen upon a campground with fire pits.
I still love my alcohol stove when and where fire bans are not in place.
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Old 03-27-21, 06:58 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
I thought the different nozzles were for preheating the fuel. The tighter the nozzle the hotter the fuel would get before igniting thus allowing the use of even vegetable oil as fuel. Though the multifuel we have is a trangia which is a roarer plate type I believe. So maybe it's different?

Anyways trangia forbids the use of alcohol in the multifuel system.
The amount of heat transfer from the combustion area to the part of the stove where liquid fuels are boiled to vapor phase is part of the stove head design, not the jet. For example, decades ago Optimus made a 111 that had a kerosene burner that have more brass to conduct heat between the combustion area and the generator area that the 111B model which was for Coleman fuel (white gas) that had less brass.

The fuel comes out of the jet as a vapor phase. The liquid fuel stoves, typically the fuel is a mixture of over a hundred different compounds, but there are overall averages for the number of carbon atoms and hydrogen atoms in each molecule for different fuels, less hydrogen and carbon in a white gas average atom than an average for kerosene. And these numbers determine how much air (number of oxygen atoms) it needs to produce carbon dioxide and water vapor. (Or stoichiometry.) Kerosene has more carbon and hydrogen atoms in each molecule than the other fuels, thus the smaller jet, less fuel comes out of the stove to mix with the oxygen in air. Other fuels with smaller molecules need less oxygen, they have a lower air to fuel ratio, use bigger jets. For example, my Primus Omnifuel stove uses a 0.28mm jet for kerosene, 0.37mm jet for white gas or Coleman fuel, 0.45mm jet for butane mix canisters.

Some stoves have been built to also use alcohol. My Optimus 111T was available from the factory with an alcohol jet and an air restrictor tube, but I bought my stove used, it did not include those parts. I usually use my 111T on a mix of Kerosene and Coleman fuel. Photos below of my 111T.





This is a heavy stove, I only use it for canoe trips or kayak trips. I used to use stoves like this for winter camping, but I have not gone on a ski or snowshoe camping trip in years, not sure if I ever will anymore. I am old enough I just do not enjoy the cold as much anymore.
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Old 03-27-21, 09:44 PM
  #49  
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Anyone planning on touring/camping in the state of California or Canada, and planning on using an alcohol fueled stove, might want to look into the recent bans on the sale of denatured alcohol as a shellac thinner, solvent, etc. It may be still available in other forms? Anyone from one of these locations might that might give us an insight as to the actual state of things?

The rationale is not fire safety but apparently the fact that alcohol is a volatile hydrocarbon and evaporated alcohol thus inevitably degrades air quality. So, the comparatively minuscule amount of alcohol that ends up in the air is an issue, as opposed the the millions of gallons of equally volatile gasoline (which these days is itself up to 10% ethanol) pumped, burned or spilled each day. I'd wager that more ethanol winds up evaporating from barroom floors on an average Saturday night than from spilled camp fuel, but the Government knows best. So, don't sweat defecating on the sidewalk, but DON'T get busted with that Trangia.
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Old 03-28-21, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kaos joe View Post
Anyone planning on touring/camping in the state of California or Canada, and planning on using an alcohol fueled stove, might want to look into the recent bans on the sale of denatured alcohol as a shellac thinner, solvent, etc. It may be still available in other forms? Anyone from one of these locations might that might give us an insight as to the actual state of things?

The rationale is not fire safety but apparently the fact that alcohol is a volatile hydrocarbon and evaporated alcohol thus inevitably degrades air quality. So, the comparatively minuscule amount of alcohol that ends up in the air is an issue, as opposed the the millions of gallons of equally volatile gasoline (which these days is itself up to 10% ethanol) pumped, burned or spilled each day. I'd wager that more ethanol winds up evaporating from barroom floors on an average Saturday night than from spilled camp fuel, but the Government knows best. So, don't sweat defecating on the sidewalk, but DON'T get busted with that Trangia.
as a Canadian I know nothing of what you speak, and haven't heard anything remotely referring to this.

could you please reference a reliable news source please. Thanks
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