MUP Etiquette
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,832
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2336 Post(s)
Liked 2,808 Times
in
1,534 Posts
No cyclist are not the problem. every user who is is rude, selfsh and clueless is the problem I go slow when others are around I always err on caution...... but many times the problem is the behavior other mup users. Dogs off leash, dog on leash with leash across the trail, People crossing the trail with out looking, kids not well in hand, people takeing both sides of the trail (3 will do it on the trail I ride most) idiots on e assist fat tire bikes who never slow down at over 20mph, would be racers on bikes, people who stop and block the trail with wagons, bikes photo equipment etc on blind corners.... list goes on
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#27
The Left Coast, USA
let's rev this up a bit: I want to see a 3 foot rule applied to CYCLISTS passing anyone, anywhere.
#28
☢
Sorry, no. Your kids and your pets are 100% your responsibility. Don't depend on the rest of society to do your job for you. Not that I'm condoning recklessness. Far from it. But everyone has the responsibility to adapt to the conditions and be respect to each other's space.
That means a cyclist slowing down when passing a group, and the group moving to one side to leave the opposite side clear for others to pass. There are no priority individual on the MUPs, and neither should take up more than their side.
As for safety, that is every individual's responsible equally. If you have kids and want them to be safe take them to the playground. Similarly, your pets should be at your side and on a leash and under your complete control at all times when in public areas.
Some MUPs are that wide in either direction. On the other hand, pedestrians always have complete priority on the sidewalks.
Last edited by KraneXL; 05-20-19 at 05:14 PM.
#29
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
And I'm a "passing on your left" guy. I think bells are stupid, but that's another thread.
#30
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
#31
Banned.
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Calm down son. You're projecting a whole bunch here. First, there is no "bell sound effect" - there's nothing artificial about it. It's just the really loud, and long, tone that my Spurcycle Bell makes. Second, my comment was about some people being oblivious. That's the nature of the beast and if you paid attention to the video you would see that the vast majority of folks heard the bell and acted appropriately. Maybe it's time to watch it again before any more clueless comments?
Thankfully, that's only your uninformed opinion. It's also some pretty amazing virtual hand wringing.
The video was sped up to highlight the vast sea of humanity that came out that day and who, for the most part, heeded the organizer's warnings:
"* Keep to the right when approached by others.
* Do not block entire trail width, always form a Single/double file.
* Look behind and to both sides before changing course"
Yeah, I usually just rely on my really loud hubs to warn folks if I'm on a MUP. This day offered an opportunity to compare results. The bell is more effective when it's really crowded.
I mostly gave up on "passing on your left" decades ago since too many folks only hear "..... ... .... left" and move into your path as you try to pass. Again, this is basic stuff.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
A video like that does not help cycling advocacy at all - rather contrary to your presumed intent, it harms it. Especially at that artificial speedup, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that does not themselves ride that there is any inappropriate behavior (on the part of anyone but the cyclist) is depicted. Or even convincing many other cyclists.
In reality, I suspect there would be plenty of people doing problematic things during such a ride - but you can't see that, because the sped-up interactions are too brief.
If you want to make a video that demonstrates a problem, you'll probably have to edit together the actual interactions and let them play in real time.
It's rather debatable though, if people walking the full trail width but moving over at the sound of the bell is improper - the big problem is people who ignore a bell or passing announcement and stay blocking the full width.
It was an example of how even during an organized walk, with participants being warned in advance about etiquette, some folks are oblivious to a loud bell ringing behind them.
That at least we can agree on - the problem I'm not really seeing any spot in the video that is a clear example of this, for example where you're actually forced to come to a stop while people slowly realize they need to share the path; from personal experience I would strongly suspect that to happen on a ride of this length with that many walking the trail, but I can't actually see such things in the accelerated video.
Most of the spots that seem really contentious do so just from the volume of traffic - like being delayed passing slower cyclists who are themselves trying to get past pedestrians with other pedestrian groups in the oncoming lane.
Last edited by UniChris; 05-20-19 at 06:28 PM.
Likes For UniChris:
#33
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
Calm down son. You're projecting a whole bunch here. First, there is no "bell sound effect" - there's nothing artificial about it. It's just the really loud, and long, tone that my Spurcycle Bell makes. Second, my comment was about some people being oblivious. That's the nature of the beast and if you paid attention to the video you would see that the vast majority of folks heard the bell and acted appropriately. Maybe it's time to watch it again before any more clueless comments?
Thankfully, that's only your uninformed opinion. It's also some pretty amazing virtual hand wringing.
The video was sped up to highlight the vast sea of humanity that came out that day and who, for the most part, heeded the organizer's warnings:
"* Keep to the right when approached by others.
* Do not block entire trail width, always form a Single/double file.
* Look behind and to both sides before changing course"
Yeah, I usually just rely on my really loud hubs to warn folks if I'm on a MUP. This day offered an opportunity to compare results. The bell is more effective when it's really crowded.
I mostly gave up on "passing on your left" decades ago since too many folks only hear "..... ... .... left" and move into your path as you try to pass. Again, this is basic stuff.
Thankfully, that's only your uninformed opinion. It's also some pretty amazing virtual hand wringing.
The video was sped up to highlight the vast sea of humanity that came out that day and who, for the most part, heeded the organizer's warnings:
"* Keep to the right when approached by others.
* Do not block entire trail width, always form a Single/double file.
* Look behind and to both sides before changing course"
Yeah, I usually just rely on my really loud hubs to warn folks if I'm on a MUP. This day offered an opportunity to compare results. The bell is more effective when it's really crowded.
I mostly gave up on "passing on your left" decades ago since too many folks only hear "..... ... .... left" and move into your path as you try to pass. Again, this is basic stuff.
and I have done thousands of passing on your lefts and the guy went the wrong way maybe twice ever. Maybe you're telling it wrong. Proper enunciation is basic stuff, mumbles.
#34
Banned.
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Originally Posted by UniChris
If you want to make a video that demonstrates a problem, you'll probably have to edit together the actual interactions and let them play in real time.
I'm not really seeing any spot in the video where you're actually forced to come to a stop while people slowly realize they need to share the path; from personal experience I would strongly suspect that to happen on a ride of this length with that many walking the trail, but I can't actually see such things in the accelerated video.
Again, in reality I was there, and you were not, and despite your "strong suspicions" that I would have been forced to stop, it didn't happen. I can trackstand/balance at low speeds though so maybe some differently-abled folks would have been forced to stop while people slowly realize they need to share the path - lone example is the couple at starting at 0:10 (which you should really like since that interaction is in real time).
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
I had, and have, no intention of making a video that demonstrates a problem. Since, again, the vast majority of folks behaved nicely. I just let reality play out, without an agenda. Also, a real time video would be even longer and more boring than the one that was sped up.
Ah, so you have no point - that explains everything!
Alas, in today's world you have to consider that while you may have had no point in making the video, your viewers will still see one, and probably not one you intend.
While I believe the video is counterproductive, I'm glad the apparently minor actual frustrations of the ride do not seem to have prevented it from being enjoyable.
Last edited by UniChris; 05-20-19 at 06:51 PM.
#37
For The Fun of It
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,845
Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2134 Post(s)
Liked 1,643 Times
in
825 Posts
Most people, myself included, that ride our MUPS don't have a bell. I have never found a need for one. When I come up behind someone, I back off the throttle, make verbal contact and pass with minimal speed disparity. I usually say something polite to the people I pass. It has worked flawlessly for me.
Likes For Paul Barnard:
#38
Banned.
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Most people, myself included, that ride our MUPS don't have a bell. I have never found a need for one. When I come up behind someone, I back off the throttle, make verbal contact and pass with minimal speed disparity. I usually say something polite to the people I pass. It has worked flawlessly for me.
Here is the inanity that I was addressing with my response:
"A lot (most?) of the bell rings seem to be at people who are about where they ought to be."
#41
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
It really isn't that crowded, the speeding up made it look like he was encountering a lot of people in rapid succession when in reality, it was probably minutes between each pass. It's one of several reasons I thought the whole thing was a dumb idea.
#42
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
And he left out the context that the video was posted along with a comment about oblivious people on MUPs. Not an inane comment at all in that context.
#43
Senior Member
Treat other on MUPs as you would like to have motorists treat you on roadways - safely, patiently and courteously.
And remember, a lot of those pedestrians have their cars parked nearby.
And remember, a lot of those pedestrians have their cars parked nearby.
Likes For Daniel4:
#44
☢
Most people, myself included, that ride our MUPS don't have a bell. I have never found a need for one. When I come up behind someone, I back off the throttle, make verbal contact and pass with minimal speed disparity. I usually say something polite to the people I pass. It has worked flawlessly for me.
Last edited by KraneXL; 05-21-19 at 08:18 AM.
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
At the same time it would be good for pedestrians to keep in mind that MUPs are in effect country roads and not exclusively pedestrian sidewalks, meaning a degree of traffic awareness has to remain "on"
Locally, we have some problems with illicit urban sidewalk riding, often high speed electric; but we also have some problems with pedestrians who write letters to the editor showing a lack of understanding of the difference between that, and the legitimate cycling on our MUPs. We also get those out for a stroll who habitually take the bike route rather than the walking one in the spots where they split, and park cyclists who think the walking lane is the salmoning alternative to one-way bike loop...
And remember, a lot of those pedestrians have their cars parked nearby.
Last edited by UniChris; 05-21-19 at 08:47 AM.
Likes For UniChris:
#46
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
A bell is universally recognizable as a cyclist approaching. Not only that its highly directional so its easy to tell what direction he's approaching from. Not only that, but may be required by law as operable equipment in some states.
Not at all an appropriate similarity. And the assumption that the cyclist is somehow more responsible on a MUP is frankly offensive. When it comes to safety, they are both EQUALLY responsible.
Not at all an appropriate similarity. And the assumption that the cyclist is somehow more responsible on a MUP is frankly offensive. When it comes to safety, they are both EQUALLY responsible.
You're just flat wrong about the cyclist's responsibility on a MUP at least as far as the law is concerned in the jurisdictions I ride in. We're legally required to yield to pedestrians on MUPs. So far as I know, there are no exceptions. You may find that offensive, but it is an actual legal assignment (not an "assumption") of greater responsibility on the cyclist for safety on the path. "He was staring at his phone while walking" is not going to be a defense if you didn't avoid hitting him.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,480
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7648 Post(s)
Liked 3,465 Times
in
1,831 Posts
The "treat peds on an MUP the way you would want them treating you as they drive home past you on your bike" is an excellent comparison ... except for people more tied up in conflict than conversation. In both cases the faster-moving vehicle with the potential to inflict greater damage is required to yield ... except on the MUP--cyclists have More responsibility. On the road, cars and bikes have equal rights of way as both are vehicles. On an MUP or a road , Pedestrians Have the Right of Way and must be deferred to.
So yes ... cyclists do bear the greater responsibility on an MUP, even more than drivers interacting with cyclists on the roadway. But in both cases, the larger, faster, more potentially damaging vehicle Should take great care around smaller, slower, more fragile users of the way. This is the same thought behind the "Watch for Motorcyclists" campaigns ... the rights and responsibilities are the same, but auto and truck drivers Should take extra car around their more fragile brethren.
One thing all this proves is that an MUP is Not "cycling infrastructure" and cities which want to be truly "cycling-friendly" need to build bike-only paths. I cannot imagine trying to ride to work through a mess like that ....
So yes ... cyclists do bear the greater responsibility on an MUP, even more than drivers interacting with cyclists on the roadway. But in both cases, the larger, faster, more potentially damaging vehicle Should take great care around smaller, slower, more fragile users of the way. This is the same thought behind the "Watch for Motorcyclists" campaigns ... the rights and responsibilities are the same, but auto and truck drivers Should take extra car around their more fragile brethren.
One thing all this proves is that an MUP is Not "cycling infrastructure" and cities which want to be truly "cycling-friendly" need to build bike-only paths. I cannot imagine trying to ride to work through a mess like that ....
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
I cannot imagine trying to ride to work through a mess like that ....
There probably is room for something else in the US though, a sort of "bike highways" feeding at longer distances into more congested and dense urban paths. Typically you don't get that many people walking on the remote stretches, though on my really early starts of rail trail distance rides heading out of the city I sometimes saw far more joggers and dog walkers than bike commuters.
Last edited by UniChris; 05-21-19 at 11:37 AM.
#49
Newbie racer
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,406
Bikes: Propel, red is faster
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 1,569 Times
in
974 Posts
I used to think to the contrary, but have changed my mind. I now think all Strava segments on MUP's that are not clearly uphill at maybe 3% grade or more should be flagged. If the KOM is close to 20mph or faster, flagged. If the KOM is like 15mph uphill. Sure, you're good.
This 2 mile or 1/2 mile flat segments with corners at 25mph on an MUP is pure nonsense.
If you remove the carrot, some of the crazy MUP racer folks won't have incentive to try to be a fake hero any longer.
You could still go out there for a safer and protected workout. Shoot, even take the tri/TT bike out there for a workout. But.....without a segment to chase I betcha they'd dial back the crazy a good amount around blind corners and people.
This 2 mile or 1/2 mile flat segments with corners at 25mph on an MUP is pure nonsense.
If you remove the carrot, some of the crazy MUP racer folks won't have incentive to try to be a fake hero any longer.
You could still go out there for a safer and protected workout. Shoot, even take the tri/TT bike out there for a workout. But.....without a segment to chase I betcha they'd dial back the crazy a good amount around blind corners and people.
#50
meh
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 4,702
Bikes: 23 Cutthroat, 21 CoMotion Java; 21 Bianchi Infinito; 15 Surly Pugsley; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Liked 1,012 Times
in
518 Posts
No, but it might be a freeway - Cedar Lake Trail.
My point: not all MUPs (non-motor infrastructure) are created equal. Some trails are designed to accommodate more traffic and higher speeds.
But to the point of the OP, don't be a dick! And I've seen this issue cut both ways ... fast riders being a dick cause their chasing some silly Strava segment; and slow riders getting bent outa shape when somebody is obeying all the rules while safely going "too fast".
My point: not all MUPs (non-motor infrastructure) are created equal. Some trails are designed to accommodate more traffic and higher speeds.
But to the point of the OP, don't be a dick! And I've seen this issue cut both ways ... fast riders being a dick cause their chasing some silly Strava segment; and slow riders getting bent outa shape when somebody is obeying all the rules while safely going "too fast".