Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Winter Cycling
Reload this Page >

Went down on dry pavement!

Notices
Winter Cycling Don't let snow and ice discourage you this winter. The key element to year-round cycling is proper attire! Check out this winter cycling forum to chat with other ice bike fanatics.

Went down on dry pavement!

Old 03-03-19, 01:04 AM
  #1  
ThermionicScott 
working on my sandal tan
Thread Starter
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,625

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,560 Times in 1,574 Posts
Went down on dry pavement!

Had a first yesterday, at least when it comes to riding on studded tires. I was rounding the corner of a trail on clean dry pavement and found myself on the ground suddenly. My friend and I couldn’t figure it out! I hadn’t struck a pedal or ridden onto an ice patch, the bike just went out from under me.

The only thing I can think of is that my particular tires (26” Mount & Grounds) didn’t have enough grip at that lean angle and pressure. It’s something that you notice right away when walking a bike with studded tires, but I’d think that when riding, your weight would bring plenty of rubber in contact with the ground.

So now I’ve got a quandary: should I lower my tire pressures further in an attempt to make sure more rubber is contacting the road at all times? Or could it be that my pressures are already too low and the contact patches are spread out too much for good traction? Currently I’m at 25psi front, 30psi rear, and a total system weight of about 210 lbs. Thanks!
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 05:55 AM
  #2  
wolfchild
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721

Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times in 1,286 Posts
I never lean my bike over too much. I keep my bike upright as much as possible and only lean my body... When pavement is dry with no ice I run my 700x30 Schwalbee winter up to 90 psi and never went down yet.
wolfchild is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 06:07 AM
  #3  
delbiker1 
Mother Nature's Son
 
delbiker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sussex County, Delaware
Posts: 3,111

Bikes: 2014 Orbea Avant MD30, 2004 Airborne Zeppelin TI, 2003 Lemond Poprad, 2001 Lemond Tourmalet, 2014? Soma Smoothie

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 838 Post(s)
Liked 1,414 Times in 801 Posts
If you look at other threads you will find that nearly all riders believe that studded tires on dry pavement is not a good idea.
delbiker1 is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 10:00 AM
  #4  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
By building wheels with rims about as wide as the tires, (45/48.5) the contact patch is wider , and so its as if I lowered the pressure..
tire profile D like rather than round.. same 26" Mount & Grounds tires, Snow Cat Rims

And I do not corner fast any more.. don't even ride far . as I'm in a small town ..

Acting my age






...

Last edited by fietsbob; 03-03-19 at 10:05 AM.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 10:11 AM
  #5  
2manybikes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 18,138

Bikes: 2 many

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1266 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times in 169 Posts
With studded tires, just don't lean over much in the corners. Keep the bike straight up. Slow down if you need to. Not a big problem. I've been doing it for a few decades.
2manybikes is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 10:15 AM
  #6  
ThermionicScott 
working on my sandal tan
Thread Starter
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,625

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,560 Times in 1,574 Posts
Originally Posted by delbiker1
If you look at other threads you will find that nearly all riders believe that studded tires on dry pavement is not a good idea.
For context, there were plenty of icy patches along the ride where I was glad to have them. It’s just hard to avoid riding studs on dry pavement at some point in the winter. 😉
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 10:49 AM
  #7  
GrainBrain
Senior Member
 
GrainBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Central Io-way
Posts: 2,655

Bikes: LeMond Zurich, Giant Talon 29er

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1218 Post(s)
Liked 609 Times in 458 Posts
I've not ridden on studded tires but I'd imagine at a certain lean angle you only have a few studs interacting with the pavement and nothing else. I could see this causing a slideout.

Fwiw I'll ride my mtb on dry pavement with knobbies that have pretty agressive side lugs. It feels really "nervous" if you corner aggressively, as you hit the apex the transition from smaller center lugs to the outers can be felt. It feels like hitting a sand patch, nerve wracking!

Hope you weren't hurt on your spill, I have yet this winter to dump it *knock on wood*
GrainBrain is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 11:10 AM
  #8  
ThermionicScott 
working on my sandal tan
Thread Starter
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,625

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,560 Times in 1,574 Posts
Yeah, I didn't even think I was leaning all that hard. But maybe studs change the dry traction enough that it's just best to stay as upright as possible on any surface. And I thought I "knew" these tires. Thanks, folks.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 11:21 AM
  #9  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
My Suomi Nokian Mount & Ground W tires have 2 rows of studs which don't protrude much at all from the lugged tread surface ..

and a significant center with out studs.. I've been using mine for 25 years ..

occasionally..

Because I'm on the Oregon coast, not eastern Iowa
fietsbob is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 12:40 PM
  #10  
ThermionicScott 
working on my sandal tan
Thread Starter
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,625

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,560 Times in 1,574 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob
My Suomi Nokian Mount & Ground W tires have 2 rows of studs which don't protrude much at all from the lugged tread surface ..

and a significant center with out studs.. I've been using mine for 25 years ..

occasionally..

Because I'm on the Oregon coast, not eastern Iowa
Yeah, we've got the same tires. I'm even using relatively wide rims as per your past recommendations, new front wheel was built with a 30mm wide rim and the rear is 28mm.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 01:40 PM
  #11  
wipekitty
vespertine member
 
wipekitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Land of Angora, Turkey
Posts: 2,476

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 687 Post(s)
Liked 220 Times in 163 Posts
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
Yeah, I didn't even think I was leaning all that hard. But maybe studs change the dry traction enough that it's just best to stay as upright as possible on any surface.
This

IMO, the same is true with aggressive knobbies on dry roads, and lower PSI = more squirreliness! One of my favorite paved descents is twisty and technical; on actual mud or ice, the aggressive treads and studs are great, but on dry pavement, it gets sketchy.
wipekitty is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 03:16 PM
  #12  
PaulRivers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 38 Posts
I do ride studded tires on dry pavement and it's totally fine. But, you do lose a little traction, I'm say like 25%.

I can feel they don't grip dry road quite as well so I don't "lean" when using them much. Though to be honest...I don't usually lean much with regular tires either as I'm always a bit afraid I'll accidentally go a little to far.
PaulRivers is offline  
Old 03-03-19, 07:50 PM
  #13  
delbiker1 
Mother Nature's Son
 
delbiker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sussex County, Delaware
Posts: 3,111

Bikes: 2014 Orbea Avant MD30, 2004 Airborne Zeppelin TI, 2003 Lemond Poprad, 2001 Lemond Tourmalet, 2014? Soma Smoothie

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 838 Post(s)
Liked 1,414 Times in 801 Posts
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott


For context, there were plenty of icy patches along the ride where I was glad to have them. It’s just hard to avoid riding studs on dry pavement at some point in the winter. 😉
That certainly makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
delbiker1 is offline  
Old 03-04-19, 11:00 AM
  #14  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,528

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5219 Post(s)
Liked 3,564 Times in 2,331 Posts
following
rumrunn6 is offline  
Old 03-04-19, 04:01 PM
  #15  
mrFreel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Des Moines, Ia
Posts: 158

Bikes: Trek Domane 5.2, Trek 520, Surly Straggler, Trek Roscoe 8, Fisher HK2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Although I have not ridden with studded tires I have ran a few times with 'studded rubbers' on my running shoes. They were great on ice and snow but SLICK on paved surfaces. The metal spikes slide rather than grip the clean pavement. As others have said, Keep the bike upright and slow down. I would guess that your braking distance would also be lengthened especially in the case of an emergency stop.
mrFreel is offline  
Old 03-04-19, 04:11 PM
  #16  
Darth Lefty 
Disco Infiltrator
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,775

Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem

Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,102 Times in 1,366 Posts
Maybe it was so cold you crashed on dry ice?
Darth Lefty is offline  
Old 03-04-19, 04:37 PM
  #17  
Riveting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 1,221

Bikes: '13 Diamondback Hybrid Commuter, '17 Spec Roubaix Di2, '17 Spec Camber 29'er, '19 CDale Topstone Gravel

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 590 Post(s)
Liked 445 Times in 260 Posts
A wider rim would create a larger contact patch when upright, but at the expense of less contact patch when cornering, yes? The width of the tire can't increase without the height decreasing. The wider contact patch has to get that rubber from somewhere.

When I was investigating getting studs (ultimately got the Schwalbe Marathon Winter HS) I recall reading that the cornering and braking friction was significantly reduced (on dry pavement due to the studs, so I just made sure to go slower, and brake earlier.

Last edited by Riveting; 03-04-19 at 04:51 PM.
Riveting is offline  
Old 03-04-19, 09:33 PM
  #18  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,735

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4268 Post(s)
Liked 2,942 Times in 1,815 Posts
Originally Posted by wipekitty

lower PSI = more squirreliness!
Interesting comment. Because everybody says that lower tire pressure is better, I've recently lowered the pressure in my Nokian W106s down to 45 psi from about 65 psi. They actually feel less stable to me on snowy (not icy) surfaces. I suppose the lower pressure helps on bare ice, but when there's some soft or loose snow, the lower pressure doesn't seem to work that well for me. I"m considering going back to somewhat higher pressure.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 03-05-19, 06:38 AM
  #19  
parkbrav
Full Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 462
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Liked 114 Times in 97 Posts
I think lower psi is a good suggestion for off-roading, but not necessarily dry pavement. My experience with dry pavement is positive, usually with 75% the recommended psi.
parkbrav is offline  
Old 03-05-19, 08:27 AM
  #20  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,528

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5219 Post(s)
Liked 3,564 Times in 2,331 Posts
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
was rounding the corner of a trail on clean dry pavement and found myself on the ground suddenly
hope it didn't hurt too much. sounds like no injury? forgot to ask, did you fall to the left, or the right? there's a casual tally going on the forum where most falls seem to be to the left
rumrunn6 is offline  
Old 03-05-19, 09:13 AM
  #21  
ThermionicScott 
working on my sandal tan
Thread Starter
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,625

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,560 Times in 1,574 Posts
Originally Posted by rumrunn6
hope it didn't hurt too much. sounds like no injury? forgot to ask, did you fall to the left, or the right? there's a casual tally going on the forum where most falls seem to be to the left
Just skinned my knee and wounded my pride a little (a passing car gave a whoop).

I did fall to the left, which was nice since that's my preference.

So I had been running my tire pressures on the low side to gain a bigger contact patch and a little more comfort (these tires feel a lot harder for the same psi than nicer tires in the same general size), but perhaps it would be better to bump them back up.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-05-19, 09:32 AM
  #22  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,528

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5219 Post(s)
Liked 3,564 Times in 2,331 Posts
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
Just skinned my knee and wounded my pride a little (a passing car gave a whoop).I did fall to the left, which was nice since that's my preference. So I had been running my tire pressures on the low side to gain a bigger contact patch and a little more comfort (these tires feel a lot harder for the same psi than nicer tires in the same general size), but perhaps it would be better to bump them back up.
another to the left! interesting! were you joking about preferring falling to the left? I think others feel the same way. I think I do cuz I mount from the left. I fell twice the past few months, both times to the left. regardless, I think like others mentioned, the turn & off-camber physics were also contributors. it would be a bad experiment to try the same move with a higher pressure. I rode a bare & wet short bridge of sorts a few times w low pressured 29x2.1 mountain bike tires & I always tried to go slow & stay vertical. but I'll agree to use higher pressures with studded tires on bare ground. I use lower on rougher terrain when I want a softer ride, more traction & flotation over soft terrain

this little bugger

Last edited by rumrunn6; 03-05-19 at 09:40 AM.
rumrunn6 is offline  
Old 03-05-19, 09:57 AM
  #23  
ThermionicScott 
working on my sandal tan
Thread Starter
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,625

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,560 Times in 1,574 Posts
Originally Posted by rumrunn6
another to the left! interesting! were you joking about preferring falling to the left? I think others feel the same way. I think I do cuz I mount from the left. I fell twice the past few months, both times to the left. regardless, I think like others mentioned, the turn & off-camber physics were also contributors. it would be a bad experiment to try the same move with a higher pressure. I rode a bare & wet short bridge of sorts a few times & I always tried to go slow & stay vertical. but I'll agree to use higher pressures with studded tires on bare ground. I use lower on rougher terrain when I want a softer ride, more traction & flotation over soft terrain
I mount/dismount from the left, and am not very comfortable doing it from the right side, so I have extra anxiety about falling to the right.

I don't have any excuse for not being equally practiced at right-side mounting/dismounting/crashing.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498

Last edited by ThermionicScott; 03-05-19 at 02:41 PM.
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-05-19, 12:15 PM
  #24  
wipekitty
vespertine member
 
wipekitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Land of Angora, Turkey
Posts: 2,476

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 687 Post(s)
Liked 220 Times in 163 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan
Interesting comment. Because everybody says that lower tire pressure is better, I've recently lowered the pressure in my Nokian W106s down to 45 psi from about 65 psi. They actually feel less stable to me on snowy (not icy) surfaces. I suppose the lower pressure helps on bare ice, but when there's some soft or loose snow, the lower pressure doesn't seem to work that well for me. I"m considering going back to somewhat higher pressure.
Sorry - should have clarified that! IME, lower PSI = worse handling with knobbies and especially studs on dry pavement, but better handling on rough surfaces (loose snow, mud, etc.)

I generally run 30 front/35 rear on my Nokian Extremes (26x2.1) when I'm likely to encounter "features" on the road, like piles of frozen stuff or sludge, deep ice ruts, snow of several inches, or ice with snow on top. I'll go slightly higher on smooth ice or snowpack and up to 65 for dry surfaces. With this bike, though, the objective is to float over rough surfaces rather than cut through.

I suspect what you've found is that with slightly thinner tires, you can get better traction by cutting through snow rather than floating, and cutting through snow requires higher pressure. That completely makes sense.
wipekitty is offline  
Old 03-05-19, 12:56 PM
  #25  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,735

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4268 Post(s)
Liked 2,942 Times in 1,815 Posts
Originally Posted by wipekitty

I suspect what you've found is that with slightly thinner tires, you can get better traction by cutting through snow rather than floating, and cutting through snow requires higher pressure. That completely makes sense.
Yes, this may be right. Am going back to somewhat higher pressure for my outdoor ride tomorrow (sadly, it's another zwift day today). I'll keep experimenting.
MinnMan is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.