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Why the LBS are dying out ...

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Why the LBS are dying out ...

Old 04-04-19, 05:53 AM
  #101  
Dan Burkhart 
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Originally Posted by Squeeze
A question for anyone "in the know" about modern business: Do dealers of products still have to meet minimum order requirements from distributors in order to get lower-than-retail prices? That's how it used to work. You'd wait until you had $X to order from your distributor and then place an order over the phone after referring to their catalog for part numbers and such. The distributor would traditionally buy directly from manufacturers (or was a manufacturer) and didn't sell to end-users.

That's the only reason I can think of why a LBS (or similar specialty retailer of goods) can't (or won't) have something there tomorrow while we as consumers can by ordering individual items online. I'm guessing they still have to meet a minimum order requirement of dollars or quantity. They could probably order item X from Amazon, just like we as individuals can, but then they would have to pay the retail price.

Just curious if this business model continues from the 20th century, from where I remember it as an employee of both manufacturers and dealers at different times, or everything has changed by now.
From my time in the LBS business, I can tell you how it works here in the great white north at least.
If your shop meets the standards set by the large distributors and you are granted an account, you need to place a minimum spring order to qualify for in season orders.The in season orders typically have a minimum threshold for free shipping, usually in the 3 to 4 hundred dollar range.
Generally, an order placed to one of these distributors will arrive at your shop the next day anywhere in the country, but depending on the time of year and daily volume, many shops will opt to order once a week to save on shipping costs.
In the busy season however, it was not unusual for me to place multiple orders per week from multiple suppliers.
Then there is the issue of distributor stock. Like any other business, they don't want to be left with a warehouse full of stock at the end of the season, and they stock more of the items they anticipate to be the high demand stuff for the upcoming season, and when they run out, they may or may not be able to re stock from the manufacturers. It was very common to find lots of items unavailable by the time July rolled around.
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Old 04-04-19, 05:56 AM
  #102  
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I'll make a bold prediction.....the LBS will chug on because of a balance between people buying online as a decrease, but more and more people refusing to dabble in repairs on their bike/car/house will give an increase in service.

The most likely things I would be out to buy are maintenance items that I come across a day before riding a specific bike and I can't wait on an online vendor. Needing a tube, some pads or something. Also, those items are cheap enough and don't really have too much "new groupset" turnover they can stock them.

I think some LBS could greatly reduce overhead by only having the "storefront" worker open/available on Friday/Sat/Sun from like 10 to 6. Then, shop is open for maintenance dropoffs and fast consumables purchases otherwise. New bike test rides by appointment during the week. Other longer meetings by consult.

Also, I'd probably try to reduce costs for new bike assemblies by not having my nicer paid skilled techs assembling cheaper BSO's but maybe get a regional "co-op" of LBS's setup to have a little warehouse where basic new bike assemblies take place.
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Old 04-04-19, 06:34 AM
  #103  
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My problem with LBS is that everything in there cost more than buying online. So I buy online.

Mechanics are usually low paid high school kids with not a lot of knowledge or care.

My other problem is they never have all of the models of bikes in stock and if they do have one it's rarely the right size. I called the LBS about a Giant Revolt the other day...Brand new 2019 model for Giant right now...LBS says they don't have any in stock and don't plan on ordering any for the show floor. But they can order one if I want it. So how the hell am I supposed to try the bike for fit if they don't have one on the floor? I'm at a height that depending on manufacturer I fit between medium and large but really never know until I try the bike out.

Imagine going to the car dealer and not being able to try out the car you are interested in.
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Old 04-04-19, 07:02 AM
  #104  
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Our LBS closed a few years back. Loss of a major brand and issues getting inventory really hurt them. It was a hang out place for many local cyclists and is sorely missed.

The landscape is changing. Online parts availability and pricing obviously hurts parts sales but LBSs need to stock convenience parts. Even those of us that wrench our own bikes have occasions where we need a part now and we are willing to pay extra to get it now.
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Old 04-04-19, 07:08 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by bakerjw
Our LBS closed a few years back. Loss of a major brand and issues getting inventory really hurt them. It was a hang out place for many local cyclists and is sorely missed.

The landscape is changing. Online parts availability and pricing obviously hurts parts sales but LBSs need to stock convenience parts. Even those of us that wrench our own bikes have occasions where we need a part now and we are willing to pay extra to get it now.

Good point. It's really the convenience store strategy. If you think about the OP's complaints, it's really hard to imagine an urgent need for a cassette or a hydraulic bleed.
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Old 04-04-19, 07:12 AM
  #106  
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In my rural area, we had 3 LBSs 15 years ago within a 20 to 40 minute drive. Now we have none and I have to drive an hour and a half, either south or east to get to a LBS. Have to say though, the 2 closest LBSs to me are really good (Trek dealers) and focus more on service.
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Old 04-04-19, 08:16 AM
  #107  
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I thought the 21st century LBS was going to be like Velo Cult in Portland. Craft beer, coffees, repairs and sales and a cool place to hang out. They appeared to have it figured out. They closed last year. One of the staff told me that their major business was repairs. Bikes are getting more complex and trickier to fix, and we live in a society where people value their time and have the money to pay others to do stuff for them. E-bikes add a another layer of complexity, so more specialized skills needed. Mechanical work is one thing that you can't get on the internet.

I used to have 3 bike shops within a 10 minute walk, but they are all gone now. We have one pretty big mega shop that stocks hundreds of bikes, carries lots of parts and do so many repairs you have to book weeks in advance. They are also mega expensive. They appear to be thriving.

Another model is a one man shop that specializes in recumbent trikes and electrifying regular bikes. He runs it out of his garage. He has demo bikes and if you wantto buy one you have to order it. You need to make an appointment for a test ride or to drop off a repair, you can't just walk in.

Those are two extremes that seem to be doing well. I think it is tough for the shops in the middle.
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Old 04-04-19, 08:53 AM
  #108  
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We have a guy running a shop from his garage here too. His niche is fixing up used bikes and repairs at affordable prices. His shop is on a bike route - the bicycle boulevard neighborhood street kind.
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Old 04-04-19, 09:00 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by skookum
I thought the 21st century LBS was going to be like Velo Cult in Portland. Craft beer, coffees, repairs and sales and a cool place to hang out. They appeared to have it figured out. They closed last year. One of the staff told me that their major business was repairs. Bikes are getting more complex and trickier to fix, and we live in a society where people value their time and have the money to pay others to do stuff for them. E-bikes add a another layer of complexity, so more specialized skills needed. Mechanical work is one thing that you can't get on the internet.

I used to have 3 bike shops within a 10 minute walk, but they are all gone now. We have one pretty big mega shop that stocks hundreds of bikes, carries lots of parts and do so many repairs you have to book weeks in advance. They are also mega expensive. They appear to be thriving.

Another model is a one man shop that specializes in recumbent trikes and electrifying regular bikes. He runs it out of his garage. He has demo bikes and if you wantto buy one you have to order it. You need to make an appointment for a test ride or to drop off a repair, you can't just walk in.

Those are two extremes that seem to be doing well. I think it is tough for the shops in the middle.

There seem to be a lot of middle-size shops in the Boston area, but I do think you've described the situation in the smaller city I live in pretty well, except that the one-man operation is in a small store instead of a garage. He doesn't fix ebikes and does quite well because he is very good at what he does, and turns it around very fast.

He also works on Walmart bikes if you pay him his normal rate--no idea how consumers can make that make sense cost-wise, but he gets a lot of business that way.

I bought my restored '94 Allez Pro from him. Looked and performed like he had just pulled it out of a time machine. Fantastic steel bike.

He also makes a fair amount of money from people who buy online and then screw up assembling it themselves.
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Old 04-04-19, 09:49 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by skookum
Craft beer, coffees, repairs and sales and a cool place to hang out.
Sounds hipster and I would avoid my LBS if they started serving Craft beer and Coffee. Probably a bunch of guys with man buns hanging out there.

If I want craft beer or coffee, I go to the local brewery or coffee shop. Not the bike shop.
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Old 04-04-19, 10:36 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by prj71
Sounds hipster and I would avoid my LBS if they started serving Craft beer and Coffee. Probably a bunch of guys with man buns hanging out there.

If I want craft beer or coffee, I go to the local brewery or coffee shop. Not the bike shop.

My only experience with such a place was that the coffee was expensive and worse than what I would get at a 7 11. Really, really bad. Nice bikes to look at while I took a few sips before dumping it, but out of my price range.

Gotta say for me, decent coffee beats "lifestyle hangout" every time.
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Old 04-04-19, 10:41 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
My only experience with such a place was that the coffee was expensive and worse than what I would get at a 7 11. Really, really bad. Nice bikes to look at while I took a few sips before dumping it, but out of my price range.

Gotta say for me, decent coffee beats "lifestyle hangout" every time.
Yeah I would agree with this. Gas station coffee is better than that stuff served at $tarbuck$
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Old 04-04-19, 10:47 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by prj71
Yeah I would agree with this. Gas station coffee is better than that stuff served at $tarbuck$

I actually like Starbucks and most gas station coffee. Gas station convenience stores have figured out that decent coffee is a point of competition.

I can't stand McDonalds coffee and can just barely tolerate Dunkin's in a pinch.

Peets is the best, but they aren't to be found roadside outside of the city.
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Old 04-04-19, 10:56 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by skookum
I thought the 21st century LBS was going to be like Velo Cult in Portland. Craft beer, coffees, repairs and sales and a cool place to hang out.
Originally Posted by prj71
Sounds hipster and I would avoid my LBS if they started serving Craft beer and Coffee. Probably a bunch of guys with man buns hanging out there.

If I want craft beer or coffee, I go to the local brewery or coffee shop. Not the bike shop.
I went to a roadie/mountain bike shop for my fitting. The shop only had 1-2 bikes and did a lot of service and fittings. They worked with a lot of custom builders on fittings. They served wine and beer with a few small snacks. They also sponsored group rides. It seemed to be working while I was there. A few people came in to grab a beer. It made the fitting experience really relaxed. A few people came in pairs to pickup their bikes - and stayed to chat. The shop was run by a middle aged guy and the patrons were middle aged.

The shop we have that serves coffee with the bike service has done a good job on the coffee part. While I am sure they get extra cyclists, it is a pretty busy cafe too. They feels almost like their number one function. They also host yoga classes, bike themed lectures and other events to help book the space. We'll see how it goes, they are about 3.5 years in at this point. They picked a slightly weird location, but it is fairly convenient and there is a lot of construction nearby that should help with foot traffic in the coming years. It is also right in front of a decently busy bus stop that helps with exposure, and it is at the nexus of 2 neighborhoods.
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Old 04-04-19, 10:59 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
You are missing my point every time.

Obviously, they have never made the claim that they are a "a place where bicycle parts & service could be exchanged for money." The OP learned this when they had to order a cassette he wanted.

This store (this chain) Sells Bikes. Any parts and service are (obviously) so unimportant to their core business that they hardly bother. Yet none of you geniuses can seem to grasp that.
There is a taco truck that comes by my office occasionally. Personally, I prefer chicken enchiladas, and I prefer them with very spicy salsa verde, but all he sells are pork tacos. I think he's still a food vendor even if he doesn't cater to my specific needs. Since he he sells enough pork tacos to stay in business, I suppose he is providing a service the market is willing to pay for.

I'm not sure why people insist that ALL local bike shops have to cater to one specific business model or range of customers when the cycling world is obviously a very varied place.
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Old 04-04-19, 11:01 AM
  #116  
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Old 04-04-19, 11:09 AM
  #117  
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"My problem with LBS is that everything in there cost more than buying online. So I buy online."

"...So how the hell am I supposed to try the bike for fit if they don't have one on the floor? I'm at a height that depending on manufacturer I fit between medium and large but really never know until I try the bike out.

Imagine going to the car dealer and not being able to try out the car you are interested in. "

Major conflict here. Please reassess reasoning.
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Old 04-04-19, 11:52 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by prj71
Sounds hipster and I would avoid my LBS if they started serving Craft beer and Coffee. Probably a bunch of guys with man buns hanging out there.

If I want craft beer or coffee, I go to the local brewery or coffee shop. Not the bike shop.
It was actually a pretty cool place. Lots of vintage bikes that were the personal property of the owner, vintage components in glass cases. Very Portland. I do see your point, and I have no idea what costs were like for repairs or parts or bikes.

Its interesting how bike shops and the industry is changing,in response to economic pressures.
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Old 04-04-19, 12:02 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by bbbean
I'm not sure why people insist that ALL local bike shops have to cater to one specific business model or range of customers when the cycling world is obviously a very varied place.
Golf clap.

Hipster stuff and steam punk ain't my scene. But, I'd wander into a coffee or brewpub that had bike repair and small parts sales on the SIDE. I probably wouldn't be as inclined to visit a bike shop with a brewpub or coffee shop as the SIDE part.

Then, have the brewpub run a weeknight group ride. Perfect model for some fun. Group ride, brewpub........and just a little bit of repair and sales on the side. Like a little 10' wide window and a door on a wall of the brewpub where you can drop a bike off for repairs or ask for some new cleats, pads, a tube, a tire, bar tape, etc.....
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Old 04-04-19, 12:11 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by skookum
Craft beer, coffees, repairs and sales and a cool place to hang out.
OLCC found the 2 things incompatible for sanitary reasons, as the cleaning standards are different..
beer as food , is the higher cleaning status.. Liquor Control and health department standards apply..

Having bikes around the tavern as decor .. is another thing, that may pass, just not working on them there..




...
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Old 04-04-19, 12:26 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart
From my time in the LBS business, I can tell you how it works here in the great white north at least.
If your shop meets the standards set by the large distributors and you are granted an account, you need to place a minimum spring order to qualify for in season orders.The in season orders typically have a minimum threshold for free shipping, usually in the 3 to 4 hundred dollar range.
Generally, an order placed to one of these distributors will arrive at your shop the next day anywhere in the country, but depending on the time of year and daily volume, many shops will opt to order once a week to save on shipping costs.
In the busy season however, it was not unusual for me to place multiple orders per week from multiple suppliers.
Then there is the issue of distributor stock. Like any other business, they don't want to be left with a warehouse full of stock at the end of the season, and they stock more of the items they anticipate to be the high demand stuff for the upcoming season, and when they run out, they may or may not be able to re stock from the manufacturers. It was very common to find lots of items unavailable by the time July rolled around.
One other issue for those LBS south of you: Getting the account with the distributor also holds you to pricing agreements. Most of the distributors require, as part of the account agreement, that the retailer sell the product at no less than the manufacturer's suggested retail price, unless there is a separate pricing agreement. The people selling the parts online are often getting the parts through other means (liquidations, bulk parts, etc) and are not bound by these same agreements so they can sell the parts cheaper. From what I've seen most LBS are selling the products for as little as they are allowed to. If you don't like it don't yell at the LBS, yell at the distributors and manufacturers that set and enforce these pricing agreements, or yell at your local politician that allow companies to enforce these restraints on free trade.
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Old 04-04-19, 12:59 PM
  #122  
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What a fascinating conversation. The OP expected a bike shop to have brake bleeding equipment. He was berated for the belief, and now we are talking about man buns, coffee and craft beer. I don't say this to be critical at all. It's what makes forum discussions not only fascinating but interesting and entertaining. You gotta love it.
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Old 04-04-19, 01:12 PM
  #123  
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Well back on topic, if the service department didn't have the bleed kit (or other parts necessary to repair my bike components) I'd just hop on over to another shop. It feels like they aren't super experienced with the stuff I have.

While I am a newbie, and don't have any interest in bike maintenance, what I have figured out: there are a lot of shops that will claim to know what they are talking about to win your business. Especially if they think you know less than they do. So it pays to talk more and ask a lot of questions before trusting your bike to someone. But maybe this just happens more often to women. Anyway it give me a quick way to rule out a place now that I am more informed.
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Old 04-04-19, 01:22 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by prj71
Sounds hipster and I would avoid my LBS if they started serving Craft beer and Coffee. Probably a bunch of guys with man buns hanging out there.

If I want craft beer or coffee, I go to the local brewery or coffee shop. Not the bike shop.
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Old 04-04-19, 01:56 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by jade408
I went to a roadie/mountain bike shop for my fitting. The shop only had 1-2 bikes and did a lot of service and fittings. They worked with a lot of custom builders on fittings. They served wine and beer with a few small snacks. They also sponsored group rides. It seemed to be working while I was there. A few people came in to grab a beer. It made the fitting experience really relaxed. A few people came in pairs to pickup their bikes - and stayed to chat. The shop was run by a middle aged guy and the patrons were middle aged.

The shop we have that serves coffee with the bike service has done a good job on the coffee part. While I am sure they get extra cyclists, it is a pretty busy cafe too. They feels almost like their number one function. They also host yoga classes, bike themed lectures and other events to help book the space. We'll see how it goes, they are about 3.5 years in at this point. They picked a slightly weird location, but it is fairly convenient and there is a lot of construction nearby that should help with foot traffic in the coming years. It is also right in front of a decently busy bus stop that helps with exposure, and it is at the nexus of 2 neighborhoods.
See, that makes sense to me--if you're going to run a multi-function social/commercial space, you need to make sure all of the components are good.

Independent coffee houses are notoriously difficult to make profitable, btw, so a fitness spa/cafe/bike shop could really be a combo where the whole is more than the parts.
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