rumrunn6

"A 6-year-old boy was struck and killed by a school bus in Rumford, Maine on Wednesday afternoon after falling off his bicycle in an intersection two blocks from his school."

*sigh*

https://www.pressherald.com/2019/05/...us-in-rumford/

I only share in the hopes of helping us protect ourselves & others, especially our precious children

livedarklions

Sad story, but it raises an obvious question. How young is too young to be riding unaccompanied in the street?

rumrunn6

yeah, was thinking the same thing. but for all we know, the child's mother was walking right behind him

livedarklions

True. I read she "was on the scene immediately" to mean she rushed from somewhere else, but I see now that's assuming too much.

noimagination

Yes, it's sad.

No, I'm not going to indulge in second-guessing the parent and trying to decide whether the child was "too young to be riding unaccompanied in the street" from hundreds of miles away, with no knowledge of the environment or circumstances and with no knowledge as to whether the question itself makes erroneous assumptions.

There's nothing to learn from the information provided, other than that accidents happen.

bakerjw

Sad. Kids don't have the situational awareness that adults have. We often see a scenario that screams "Danger!" and youngsters have no idea.

livedarklions

I did not mean to start a "second guess the mom" discussion. But I know as a parent, that was a very real question I had to deal with, and I think it would be interesting for people to discuss. It was especially acute when I lived in Maine as the area we lived in had no sidewalks.

noimagination

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I'll take you at your word.

While your concern is certainly a valid subject for discussion, I think that initiating such a discussion in this thread is not a good decision. You may have no intent to judge, but the association of your discussion with the event that is the subject of the thread leads inevitably to second guessing a grieving parent, who may be blameless (we can't know at this point).

Just something to think about.

livedarklions

Not only do I disagree with that, I think it's literally the only valid reason to post these kinds of stories in this forum.

If we are not supposed to discuss the obvious safety questions raised by the account of an accident, then what is the purpose of posting such things in a an advocacy and safety forum? Both advocacy and safety would imply that our concern here is trying to make sure such things don't happen in the future.

CB HI

I guess you were unable to understand the part in the story where the boy was riding on the sidewalk and entered the road at the intersection to cross.

mr_bill

The “obvious safety question” is how a “situationally aware adult” might miss the clear scenario which screams “I am the danger!”

When you are driving and see a young child riding a bicycle on a sidewalk, especially near an intersection, what do you do?

If you are driving and didn’t see a young child riding a bicycle on a sidewalk, especially near an intersection, how did you not see them?

I grew up with “behind a rolling ball comes a running child.” How is it that we have come to the place where the first thing people wonder is at what age should children play with a ball?

-mr. bill

Maelochs

Sounds like the rider made the turn into a crosswalk, saw a bus already coming, tried to brake, and fell as the buss was passing.

My first thought was that the driver should have seen a child in the crosswalk, but the circumstances as described make it sound more like the child turned into the road as the bus was already passing.

livedarklions

I don't care to argue who is possibly at fault here, but a small child who has fallen off a bike is foreseeably going to be hard for a driver of a large vehicle to see--that's a reality of blind spots and size. Add to that, the obvious fact (and I say this as someone who taught two 5 year olds how to ride in the street) that kids' control of a bike at that age can be rather erratic and unpredictable, and big vehicles cannot stop on a dime, even at very slow speeds.

This is a bicyclist forum, not a school bus driver forum. Obviously, I want school bus drivers to be situationally aware, but I don't see a thread on this forum having much potential for getting that message to school bus drivers. So, yes, I think a rather obvious issue this raises for cyclists is how they teach their kids to handle themselves in the street, and at what age do they "loosen the leash".

BTW, one of the first things I taught my kids was don't chase the ball into the street. I don't get your point--was I wrong to do that?

rumrunn6

I once had a sales job. I was out looking for my prospect's office. I came down a side street in a commercial area. & I witnessed this (don't worry it had a happy ending)

preschool up a hill to my left. small kids riding tiny 2 wheelers w cones set up in yard. just a row of shrubs at the edge of the hill. one little guy (wearing a helmet) goes thru the shrub line & down the hill. I slam on my brakes. giant dump truck coming in the opposite direction & closer to the child slams on his brakes but of course keeps rolling. monitor screaming starts running down the hill. the child crashed into the roadway with his head on the ground just inches in front of the trucks now stopped front wheel

here's a bad diagram

I expect that nursery school later put up a fence, but who knows

livedarklions

My memory from when my kids were that age is it's amazing how fast they can get out of your ability to control when they head a direction you're not anticipating.

I'm not sure I'd sleep for a week after seeing something like that close call with a small kid.

bakerjw

One other thing to take into account. Was the bus full of kids when this accident happened?
Around here, when I follow a school bus, I am amazed at the behavior that I see on board and can only assume that it adds another level of distraction to the driver.

rumrunn6

don't know about "full" but that mother who was interviewed said their child was on the bus & saw their friend on their bike & then witnessed what happened. that's gotta be rough

CB HI

Can folks here not actually read the story as written? Or see the scene from the photo and video?
There were only 4 kids on the bus. The child rode straight off the sidewalk into the intersection crosswalk (note from video sidewalk was a slight downhill). The bus was truning left and into the childs path in the crosswalk. The child tried to stop but fell and went into the buses left rear tire.

Safety issues:
child riding wrong direction, even though it was on the sidewalk
bus may have been waiting for traffic to clear to make left turn - thus forgetting they passed a child headed for the intersection
bus did not make a final check that intersection would be clear
That intersection needs a crossing guard before and after school
skills of cyclist?
training of cyclist?
brakes on bicycle?
+ others

livedarklions

Here's the thing, though, this is one of those situations where literally everyone adult could be doing exactly what they should have, yet a kid ends up getting killed. Parents are constantly having to try to figure out the right balance of being protective enough vs. being overprotective, drivers can only avoid that which they can see in time to react and there's no way to build a bus without blind spots, and kids are just about the most unpredictable beings out there.

We could react to this by trying to figure out who to blame, but I don't think we have anything of value to contribute to that conversation. Where I think it makes sense to have a discussion about is what we can actually do as parents, drivers and advocates to try to keep something like this (obviously not exactly like this) from happening again.

I'm guessing that if I worked at the school, I'd be looking at traffic patterns around the school to figure out how to get kids on bikes and walking separated from the buses, but that's just a guess.

CliffordK

Hopefully nobody will be offended by reposting the photo.



It appears to be a sleepy little rural town, Rumford, Maine.

Usually the school districts have a rule. No buses for kids closer than 1 mile from school, so the kids are either walking, cycling, or hitching a ride.

Here is a much better description of the accident here (as well as getting the streets right, matching the photo).

https://www.centralmaine.com/2019/05...-bus-accident/

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.5526...7i13312!8i6656

So, as I understand it, both the bus and the cyclist were riding in the same direction along Waldo street.

Essex street had a stop sign, and the kid rolled across the crosswalk on Essex as the bus made a left turn onto Essex.

The kid should have been visible.

And, the driver should have looked before turning (crossing a clear lane, and across a cross walk).

But, it is also a difficult situation as the kid was likely just behind the bus, perhaps shadowing it in a blind spot (it says the cyclist was interacting with a kid on the bus???).

So, the driver isn't really passing the cyclist. And the kid may have been moving quickly.

Tough place to be, especially on the left side of the road.

CliffordK

I have to say that is the kind of small sleepy town that I'd love to raise a kid in. Perhaps not necessarily exactly in the town, but nearby, so rather than a few blocks from school, a few miles.

I don't have kids of my own, but the decisions of how to raise them will be difficult decisions. But, I also strongly believe that falling down is part of growing up (and hopefully not in such a tragic manner).

I did ride my bike to school in gradeschool, starting in first grade.

And, I did get hit by a car in 1st grade. No significant injury, but it was a big learning experience for me. And, really, it would have been better if my parents had been with me to teach me that STOP signs aren't just for cars, but nonetheless, I learned about road safety.

By the time I was in 5th or 6th grade, we had Thursday afternoons off of school, and I'd ride to the big city, about 15 or 20 miles, solo. Somehow meet my parents (pre-cell phone era), and hitch a ride back home.

By 7th grade, we moved much closer to the city, but I was already familiar with all the local roads, and the routes to Jr. High and HS.

My niece is visiting this summer. At age 15, she is going to going to Youth Corps (hopefully) about 9 miles from Mom's house.

By age 15, I would have carpooled some with my parents, but I'd have been riding my bike at least 50% of the time.

But, it is too far for my niece, and too busy of roads But, those are the same roads I was riding further, one-way, at age 11 or 12, and by 15, I was doing similar RT rides.

My niece's lack of experience riding will be what will knock me off of being car-free (non-driving) for the last 4 1/2 years.

Oh, and before one realizes, she'll be sitting behind the wheel.

CB HI

This death would not have occured if the child was taught and the child followed the instruction to always ride with traffic, even when riding on the sidewalk.

Maelochs

None of us can say what the child was taught, or how well.

We all know we sometimes do things we shouldn't do, sometimes deliberately and sometimes accidentally.

Since adults can err ... yeah, I guess kids can too.

None of us is even certain which way the child was riding ... there are two views ... but the idea that one must Always ride with traffic On A Sidewalk is ludicrous.

This was an accident, a tragedy, and some one or maybe more people screwed up. Stuff happens. Pretending to understand things we don't understand and pretending to know things we don't know doesn't help ...

CliffordK

The article that I linked above has a better description of which direction everyone was moving.

https://www.centralmaine.com/2019/05...-bus-accident/

But, I agree, riding on the right or left sidewalk didn't make a difference (other than the left turn above).

The accident would have been just as bad, if not worse if the cyclist had been riding down the right sidewalk, and the driver had turned right. Or, potentially even riding on the street.

The article didn't mention speeds, other than the child was "interacting" with a child on the bus. So, potentially shadowing the bus, quite likely in a blind spot.

Safety around large vehicles and trucks is a pretty advanced skill for a 6 year old. And, something that many college students, or older cyclists haven't mastered yet.

My grandfather drove a log truck, so I heard about right-hand turns from a young age, but not everyone does.

In this case, "pedestrian" in a marked crosswalk, albeit faded paint, with stop signs, the kid should have had the right of way, if he had been visible.

Still, watch the vehicles, especially if shadowing them or catching them from behind.

If I'm walking, I like to look for turning vehicles before crossing a street. And, that is the primary risk of being on a bike, moving fast, and in a place that one is not expected.

Of course, 2 blocks from a school, a school bus driver should expect kids to be EVERYWHERE.

livedarklions

Right, trying to pick apart the factual accounts so we can assess blame is pointless.

Most of these threads seem to be opportunities for people to display their fundamental attribution error biases. This time, it's who do you like to blame most, parents or bus drivers?