squirtdad

i got these at ~$30 each...... have not ridden them yet, but the build quality seems good based on visual inspection and mounting unglued to stretch...easy mount on mavic 330 rims..... .should ride next weekend

CHALLENGE ELITE PRO 220 TPI TUBULAR ROAD TYRE

• Use: Road Training
• Tire Width: 25 mm
• Internal Rim Width: 13-15 mm
• Weight: 295 gr
• TPI: 220
• Casing: Poly
• Flat protection: PPS
• BAR: 7-12
• PSI: 100-175
• Inner tube: butyl

https://www.googleadservices.com/pag...BoCgLUQAvD_BwE

DiabloScott

Suggestion: Pick one bike, maybe the one with the best tubular wheels, and make that your tubular bike and get some nice tires to go with it. Then you can switch the other two to clinchers if you want. You can read articles and watch videos and practice mounting the tires without glue so you'll know what you're getting in to. What you don't want, is three bikes with mediocre tires that you don't like.

And yeah, Vittoria Rally is a poor tire choice. Look for some 27mm Vittoria, Challenge, or Veloflex, and expect to spend $50-$70 each.

I actually bought some sew-ups from a local Performance right off the shelf, and the cashier had ever seen such a thing before. They had good prices and stupid staff. Another time,another LBS, I brought a tubular wheel in asking about sealant for my flat. The guy offered to sell me a Slime TUBE. I said "this is a sew-up"... <blank glossy clueless eyes>... "So you don't want this tube?"

Velo Mule

I've got to agree. Riding tubulars, even if you end up not liking them will give you the experience. This thread is making me think that perhaps I should have a set of tubulars. Maybe, I'll try the tape instead of glue.

My experience and the reason that I am thinking about it again, is that I never got pinch flats, which was a problem with my skinny training clinchers and they rode nice. I think they had less rolling resistance, but, I really don't know. Of course, now I am riding clinchers, however, they are wider. That is another way to avoid pinch flats.

Shrevvy 

crank_addict

Suggest lurking the following thread>
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...y-tubular.html

BTW: Think to have my new fave tubular glue. Made in France, Pastali brand by Zefal.
(I say 'think' because I've yet to see how well it reacts in very hot temp days.)

Nice consistency, sets up within a half hour for tire mount. Like the tackness that stays on aluminum surface for when an unglued spare is mounted roadside. I'm using one 27gm (tube container) per wheel. It cleans up remarkably well, especially should any excess get on the sidewall. I let it mostly cure and then simply rub off the emulsion, ---no cleaners or chem.

Note: I don't know if its suitable for carbon tubular rims.

Salamandrine 

Interesting. What is it that you like mainly? The ease of use? Pastali has been around forever. That's about the one glue that I've never used. Is it milky white like (old) Tubasti, or something else?

1ZimZim1

Tubulars and rims are light (low angular momentum), fold up compact such that several can be carried under the saddle, low rolling resistance, quick change when there is a flat, no pitch flat issues .... That being said, I quit riding tubulars 30 years ago. They are now expensive and still difficult to patch - requires some learning curve to make a patch. And where I was riding was plagued with goat head thorns. Always carried three spares and many times over an 18 mile ride used all three spares. I now ride tubeless on all my bikes and have not experienced a flat in over 5,000 miles. They are heavier than tubulars but the puncture and pinch flat issue associated with tubes is pretty much no longer a worry. Just my thoughts on the query ...

crank_addict

Second paragraph sums it up. Also using Tubasti and Continental. Weird how Continental specifies long wait time between coats and final setup. They make it seem as a 3 day ordeal before riding a fresh glue up.

noglider 

Jobst Brandt did rolling resistance tests and found that tubulars have more rolling resistance than clinchers, but that's not the most important thing. The fact that they feel better might mean that they reduce rider fatigue on long rides.

RobbieTunes

That's not totally my experience but I understand testing, etc, and I believe Brandt's results (possibly because the tests showed my Challenge LG's as sluggos compared to my GP4000's, and it's as clear as night and day, riding them.

As humans, we experience all the variables at the same time, with no instruments other than our hands, heinies, and hooves. The Conti rep at NAHBS said they can make tubulars roll a lot easier than clinchers, purely by design, but there's no benefit for Continental or any tire maker, given the very high price they'd have to have for them.

With the broad range of wheels now being used, it's likely a wash, if that, especially given equal pricing, between tubulars and clinchers.

On a narrow, low-profile C&V rim, my position is that a decent mid-grade tubular is preferable to most clinchers, for comfort, road feel, and I'd toss in rolling resistance, just for grins.

Once you get into something like an A23 rim, I can't see how you can get definitively better than something clincher like a Conti GP4000SII 700x25/23, or a Veloflex Master. Holy cow they're smooth.

I've always wondered, as a tangent topic, do tires get "better" as they wear in? Either mine do, or I just get used to them. Not sure which.

RobbieTunes

How is it on pizza?

RobbieTunes

Perhaps they're not "out there" for sale because people use them?
Once they fork over the cash, and get them mounted, they tend to stay mounted until worn out.
There's an investment in wheels, glue/tape, time and tires. A switch is not taken lightly.

There are a lot of Denali's for sale, for example....and Walmart bikes.

ldmataya 

Yes, and he attributed it primarily to the hysteresis (deformation) loss from the glue between the tire and the rim.
https://yarchive.net/bike/rolling_resistance.html

But remember that more rolling resistance does not always mean less speed. In fact, more deformation produces more speed when the surface is less smooth - up to a point. This is why you roll faster on gravel and dirt with less pressure in a tire. This is also why I think supple tubulars produce the feeling of smoothness and speed especially when riding on less than perfect tarmac.

crank_addict

Much as I appreciate those who test and report, most of it is useless. The inconsistency and variables present in real actual use are far from those test results. Then, theres folks who base it on PB and time. Again, those variables widely range because of the rider and his/her condition at that moment.

Not one single test has ever been presented with true consistency. So that blips out all and every test report. Sorry.

To do it right, you need a constant.

And how?

Firstly, get rid of the human variable. That's right. A fully motorized 'bike' POWERING 100% during the test period. These test should not be lab rolling road either but same course outside - be it gravel, tarmac, wet dry etc.. Report temperature / ambient to actual tire (pre - during- post) etc. Next, get into the topic of acceleration, constant speeds, to braking.

But again, its really a waste of time for manufactures to go through these test and measures in order to sell and toot marketing. When compared to motor vehicle markets, the bike tire market is miniscule plus the bicycle is a slow speed vehicle and that 99.9% of cyclist don't care to know or want to decipher tire test.

crank_addict

Haven't tried, but it surely has a buzzy aroma. ;")

noglider 

True, testing bicycles is very tricky.

steelbikeguy

seems harsh to blame the humans, but I have to agree. The danged varmints are nothing but trouble!

The tire companies have tried to get rid of the humans, and ended up with their steel drum tests. Everyone seemed happy for a long time, and pumped up their tires to crazy high pressures.
I think there was always an understanding that high pressures were really only good for smooth surfaces, and I swear I read a comment about this in an old Cyclo-Pedia catalog 40 years ago... but Jan H. did pick up the baton and run some tests with humans riding on rough surfaces. Not bad for a poorly funded individual. I keep waiting for Continental or some other tire company to carry out similar tests. The results, in general, were that rough surfaces demanded lower pressures for the lowest resistance (and lower pressures demanded a larger tire cross section if you don't want pinch flats).

In engineering, it can be tough to run really proper tests. There are usually limiting factors that make it hard or impractical to fully duplicate the way that the device gets used by the customer, so simplifications are made. The hard part is figuring out how close the test is to reality, and how useful the test results will be. If you have the time and money, you run the fully realistic test and you run the simplified test, and compare results. Other times, the realistic test would take 5 years or longer and the product would be obsolete by the time the test was finished, so you just do the best you can.
For bike tires, it seems like the plan was to run a reasonably decent test on the steel drums, and only change if the customers complain loudly.

Steve in Peoria

jpdemers

THIS is the most significant difference. At high (downhill) speeds, you can steer a lighter wheel with less torque, and less gyroscopic force. I've never noticed a difference in ride when cruising at normal speed. For the weight-obsessed, of course, tubulars are mandatory: you can't enjoy a $10k carbon bike when you know those extra grams are slowing you down.

daviddavieboy

True you do get what you pay for. I use these for early spring riding when the roads are crap and don't care what happens to the tire. The rubber seems hard and will cut easily when at high pressure so I keep mine around 80-90 PSI. The tires are made poorly and do not go on straight, they can be lumpy depending on the tire, they do not have removable valve cores, they ride ok - comparable to a gatorskin but they are cheap. Once the street sweepers make their rounds and the roads are free of ice I put on better tires.


And they come in skin-wall. . . Please tell how they work out !

jeirvine 

Why tubulars? Because this:
https://twitter.com/Milano_Sanremo/s...20152217993216

63rickert

How long was I asleep this time? Ten years or thirty? That newfangled tape you describe seems to be pretty well established. And that system should work. Still wildly overpriced, not necessary, and Not Traditional. It should work. And sell.

You are also very correct that a sixth grader can do it. Only verified sixth grader I knew who glued the old way would have been George Noyes, who grew up to be a somewhat famous team wrench. Have known several boy racers who got tired of waiting for Dad and picked up the glue tube. Wasn't keeping track of whether they were in 6, or 7, or 8. My little brother began gluing when in 8th grade, don't recall he asked for any help or instructions, just grabbed my glue tube and did it. My own gluing began when I purchased my first lightweight bike summer between 9th and 10th grade and it was Tubulars Not Glued. It was a 15 mile ride home and no bikes on the train. They handed me a tube of glue. I went outside, sat down on the sidewalk, and glued. Maybe 30 seconds of verbal instructions. They were nice enough to come out and offer me a rag and some mineral spirits when I was done and to check my work. But no help. If you can't glue 'em you shouldn't ride 'em. Oh yeah, this is all with red glue, now extinct, and much messier than any current glue. Not harder, way way messier.

Didn't know her yet, my wife picked up gluing at about same age. Guy who volunteered to help her didn't know how either. They got it done and it worked. It has always been real simple. No one wants to believe it is simple.

Glue tubes are very specifically sized to glue one pair of tires. Usually if you don't waste it on stupid mistakes there's a bit left over after two tires. That extra dries out before you get to the next tire. If you want to use a whole tube on one tire you could, won't hurt anything, just some extra mess. If you are building up six layers of glue, may God help you, I can't.

63rickert

Clement Scatto? Antiques for display only. Boulder cautions against use.
Vittoria CX from Taiwan? Caveat emptor. Sure it was a Vittoria at all? They possibly could have had some made in ROC but not likely.
Challenge Vulcano? Vulcano has been a label used on bottom end exploding tires for as long as I can remember. It's in the name.
Continental tubies below Sonderklasse are odd ducks, more Conti than tubular.
Tufos are plain odd ducks however you look at it.
Vittoria Rally is low end. Have seen them recently at Merlin @ 2 for $20. Rideable but don't expect much.
If you automatically gravitate towards flukes and freaks you won't have good experiences.

79pmooney

I was a latecomer to the sewup game. 20 years old. Started on tape and rolled a tire. Glued ever since. When I came on to Bike Forums I learned how hard it is and how specifically every thing had to be done. Absolutely amazing I broke all those rules and never rolled a glued tire in over 100,000 miles. (I did melt the glue coming down Mt Washington but the tire stayed on.)

As posted above, I was a Tubasti fan for all but my race wheels. I'd use plenty in the early days of a new rim. Once I had a good base, I put a rather thin layer on. Being Tubasti, I could always reliably pull the tires off for a road change, but they were well stuck. And the spare would be well stuck when I got home. (I never "pre-glued" a spare. Never carried glue. My spares were usually old repaired tires but sometimes new. Figured it was a toss. New and tight. Old and had seen glue before. All worked. Never cleaned rims. Just check to make sure the buildup was solidly on and lumps were manageable.

I had to come here to find out how hard life was with sewups. I never knew.

Ben

sewupnut

Tubulars are only old school when virtually all 700C rims had tubulars. They're still prevalent in pro racing. I train mostly on clinchers, cause if you flat a tubular on the road you either have to have a can or two of PitStop to seal the internal tube without dismounting it or be careful riding back home on the spare you tack on. By the way I have never flatted a Veloflex Roubaix in the years I've been racing, including Gran Fondos and on about 25% of my training rides. Tubulars just plain ride better. I've noticed that when I hit a bump with a clincher, I get jarred. With tubulars, it's a bounce.

63rickert

The Mt. Washington Toll Road is not open to bicycles. Have heard stories of those who managed to get on the mountain anyway. Guy who won the race first year I tried it was a Toll Road employee. His story was the descent was terrifying and no fun, he would not try again. Road designed to somehow get there, no banked and calculated for safety turns. Tell us your story sometime, it has to be good.

Until very recent years glue failure stories came in two flavors. First was like yours, tape didn't work. The other was red glue left alone for more than a year - or maybe three - got dried out, cracked, let go. Referees here used to do occasional starting line glue check, Carl Wilkins told me he could tell by the color of the edges when glue was too old. Since they flatted in rather less than three years dried out glue didn't happen that much. Otherwise it always worked and no way to screw it up.