Reynolds 

That light adjustment is worthy of a drawing by Daniel Rebour.

rhm

Oh, I just think those shifters are ugly. No big deal. Especially if you disagree; I'm happy of anyone finds them attractive. I don't; but I recognize their functionality, which is excellent.

Well okay, it sounds to me like you've done more research than I. Cool!
There certainly is some weirdness inherent in using a non-indexed shifter with an indexed derailleur. The good old friction shifter and noon-indexed derailleur gave pretty good feedback both through the cable and by sound, and a skilled rider could make those things perfectly silent.
An indexed shifter, on the other hand, used to require a skilled mechanic to make it perfectly silent.
Well, I haven't got this derailleur anywhere near silent. It makes a noise like a well oiled machine; but my other bikes are quieter. I'm not convinced anything is wrong, maladjusted or otherwise. But it's still a noisy derailleur. It shifts promptly and smoothly, and rarely ghost shifts. It's a good derailleur. I won't call it great; but definitely good.
And it feels robust. Let's give this thing five or ten thousand miles and I'll get back to you.

Yes, I knew that ... But I've never seen one. Almost bought one, sight unseen, but went this direction instead.

noglider 

Super nifty.

So then tolerance of bashing is the reason you chose the S-1 derailleur?

I recognize those shifters. They were originally stem shifters. I have a set. They're not bad at all.

rhm

The bar tape deserves it's own mention. This is ESI-grip silicone tape, and I really like it. It's stretchy and strong and doesn't require any kind of glue. You can reuse it over and over.
I started at the end of the bar, wrapped it up to the brake, then went all the way to the center and back to the brakes levers, tucking the end of the tape under the brake hoods. It looks lumpy but it's pretty great. I'll use this tape again. I'll buy this tape again.

delicious

Really neat build. I like the dropout conversion - does that allow you to remove the rear wheel without deflating?

TimmyT 

Those are pretty cool, and creaky. I like the use of the noodle.

rhm

Yea, I will get to that eventually. Got a lot to do these days, though....



Yes! Mostly the purpose was to allow the wheel to get as back in the dropouts as possible so I'd have room for more tire. I can fit a 26 x 2.3 tire now, at least when it's a new tire (they grow as they age). But Mark put the derailleur hanger back to hold the S-1 chain hanger. It would be interesting to see if I can run a conventional derailleur from this dropout, but I haven't tried and don't plan to. It should be possible ("should be possible" oh never mind).

dddd

I liked those huge stem shifters enough to adapt them to a downtube clamp from another old pair of Suntour levers.

Here they are still as stem shifters, and as DT levers:

rhm

Cool! Did you add a stop somehow? I had to cut stops for mine from scrap aluminum.

I'm glad those shifters have their fan base! I must admit, I am getting to like them. I am not revising my opinion that they are ugly, but then again, ugly is in fashion these days. They sure are functional!

Charles Wahl

If their ugliness to you is their scale (somewhat outsized), then you could melt off the rubber tips and cut them down a bit, filing and polishing the ends to have a lower profile. Has anyone ever tried to increase the outside diameter of some "normal" friction shifter levers by adding a ring with a groove?

noglider 

That's definitely worth a try. I have leather tape on two bikes, and the cost has been justified because I can reuse it. I bought Brooks Cambium synthetic tape for a bike I'm building, but it gets bad reviews. This stuff you used seems ideal. I bet it's somewhat washable, too. Costs a lot less than leather.

And your wrapping technique is also worth a try.

Salamandrine 

I like the way you think!

Awesome build all around. It does indeed go to eleven.

Andy_K 

I'm still not sure I understand how it works. Maybe I need a video.

I thought I saw an earlier version of this with WInzip brake levers. What happened to those? Aren't the ones you have on there now long pull?

rhm

I think you'll like it. So to clarify the technique, I wrapped as normal from the bar end up to the brake lever, then went straight to the center with no overlap at all-- less than two turns around the bar with a lot of tension to keep it tight. Then, from the center back I did a careful and tight wrap, ending up with about 2" extra that I tucked under the hood. The first time I did this I got caught in the rain and with the water getting under the bar tape it all unraveled. The next try I got more under the hood and it seems to have held better (but I don't think i got caught in the rain again).

Good luck!


It's pretty simple: the housing pushes down on one side of the lever, so the other side moves up. I'll try to make you a video.

Good call on the levers, yes, those are Tektro levers for long pull. There is probably a modest penalty in power, but with short pull levers I had to make the adjustment so tight that I couldn't get the wheel out. Even with the QR on the lever I couldn't unhook the cable from the brake. The long pull levers give enough power, I think (but I haven't had to ride any steep hills in the rain. That may change my mind).

Andy_K 

I figured it must pivot in some way. Does the way the brake hanger pivots change the cable pull compared to what you'd get with a traditional straddle and yoke setup?

rhm

Good question. The answer is no, it does not change the amount of cable pull, so it does not change the mechanical advantage or whatever you want to call the leverage exerted. BUT, that said, let's compare this setup to the traditional cantilever or center pull brake, on which you have a cable stop attached to the frame; the cable housing pushes down on that stop and the cable pulls up on the straddle cable that in turn pulls up on the brake arms... right? Well, here there is no pressure applied to the frame. All the pressure goes into pulling up on the brake arms. This raises the question: when you press down on the cable stop, is that pressure wasted? Is any of it wasted? I don't know the answer to that. But I suspect yes, some of that pressure is wasted in the traditional cantilever setup and not wasted in this setup.

On the front brake there is another issue: with a large frame (and this is a fairly large frame) you have a rather long steerer tube. If you put the cable stop above the headset, as is normal, then the force of braking flexes the steerer enough to change the braking pressure coming through the cable, which leads to a cyclical shudder. The brake grabs the rim and releases it repeatedly and very quickly, grabs it again, releases... five or ten times per second. It can be very disconcerting. This brake setup eliminates that problem completely.

scarlson 

OH! That's a problem I've been having on my Trek, with the cable stop in the (drilled) stem. It never happens on my other bikes with (I assume) more rigid forks. Weirdly the last time I had it happen was on a Surly trucker, which I would have assumed to be the most rigid thing out there. That pivot hanger thingy (Suntour power brake hanger?) looks like an elegant solution. Does it mount with a standard 6mm bolt? Or is there something else going on in there? I see gugie made a rack to work with the front one. Any gugificazione magic, or is it just a really long mounting stud?

It was also an option on European-market SAAB 900 cars. Mine has wiring for an electric beam adjustment setup, but I can't find the switch/motor to mount up. It may be a case of European states trusting their citizens more with advanced features in their machinery. Such a feature is almost certainly illegal in US DOT codes for automobiles and the 2CVs that did make it here probably were required to have that adjuster deleted (or else the inspectors didn't know wtf they were looking at!!).

rhm

The Suntour ones, which I prefer, are getting harder to find:

VeloBase.com - Component: SunTour Power Hanger: OT-PH00
If you can find one in original packaging I believe it will come with a long M6 bolt and enough washers / spacers to make it work. Gugie knew what I was going to be doing so yes, he modified his design a bit to accommodate, I don't remember the details.

The Tektro version (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brakes/t...rakes/?geoc=US) is much easier to find. There are usually some on eBay. It's very similar to the Suntour one and quite nicely made but I prefer the Suntour one. The Tektro ones also come with a long M6 bolt etc. It's important to use the right spacers to get a good cable alignment.

In an ideal world, you would have a barrel adjuster for each side of the brake. Neither the Suntour nor the Tektro versions offer that feature, though. So if I had access to a machine shop, I would make my own. Come to think of it, I did run an M6x1.0 tap through the Tektro one I have on the front so there's a barrel adjuster there, and did something similar with the rear one. So my photo probably doesn't show it exactly as it came.

Andy_K 

After giving this more thought, I think you're wrong about the cable pull. I mean, obviously the caliper setup doesn't change the amount of cable the lever is pulling, but the setup of the brake system changes the ratio of how far the brake moves to how much cable is pulled. With traditional cantilever brakes, this varies depending on the length of the caliper arms, but as a general rule, the lower you have the yoke set, the less the pads move per unit of cable pull. Cyclocross racers tend to set their yoke cables really high because it allows them to set the pads further out for mud clearance.

With your setup, I think the caliper arm length still comes into play, but if I'm thinking about it correctly, the pull ratio is basically going to be 2:1 scaled to the geometry of the brake arms. So, similar to V-brakes, but with an extra factor for the triangular caliper layout. Here's a picture I drew to help myself think it through.


I'm not sure that will help anyone but me.

Am I wrong about this?

That's an interesting point. Brake shudder was the bane of cyclocross racers throughout the cantilever times, especially after the advent of carbon forks. Generally you solved it by mounting the brake hanger to the fork crown, which I guess this also does.

dddd

One interesting thing is that if you increase the canti caliper's leverage (caliper including entire straddle arrangement) then the shudder problem will be lessened.
More flexible hanger and more heavily toed-in pads also reduce the shudder.
Less-grippy pads is yet another partial answer to this problem. But most of these "solutions" reduce braking power.

My old Jamis Dakar had this problem bad until I moved the hanger from the stem to the crown.

rhm

I dunno. I have been thinking about it, and you've seen my solution. I'm sure we can do better....

Andy_K 

It seems like a reasonable solution. If standard pull levers weren't moving the brakes enough they probably would have had too much MA. My solution would probably have been to use V-brakes, but that may be far too simple for this bike. Maybe you can get @gugie to braze on a series of pulleys to let you fine tune the cable pull.

rhm

Oh, I tried V-brakes. I have some old Deore XT brakes that are just about the nicest V-brakes I've ever played with, and I would have been happy to use them here. But they're just not long enough to clear the fenders.

sheddle

Speaking of Deore XT, you should go full weird and see if you can fit both that chainstay derailleur and that Deore XT chainstay u-brake on there.

gugie 

Don't get him started!