70sSanO

The truth is Jan Heine doesn’t make tires, neither does anyone at Rene Herse. They are contracted out.

Whether anyone at Rene Herse has developed unique tire formulas or whether the actual formulation was done by engineers at the company doing the manufacturing, is anybody’s guess. My guess is that the manufacturer came up with the formula to meet certain specs. I would also imagine a whole bunch of tires made by other manufacturers were first tested.

It is obviously a niche market and Jan Heine is promoting his product. I would think his tests are accurate based on a casing with a limited market share. While it is interesting, I doubt rolling resistance is at the top on most people’s list.

John

jgwilliams

There are plenty of very highly qualified people who have kissed goodbye to scientific method. This is particularly true in the drugs industry where there's a lot of money at stake.

walnutz

A reasonable, non-combative opinion? Please excuse yourself.

FWIW, I just installed some Compass 650x48 extralights (can’t keep track of the ridiculous names) and my only complaint is how much sealant they leak. It’s crazy. I’ve done a few rides now and hopefully that issue goes away. Otherwise they are pretty smooth. Were they worth upgrading from WTB Horizons? No. But I’ll ride them until they’re no good.

Hiro11

The truth is no one at Trek, Specialized, Scott, Bianchi, Pinarello, Cannondale, Cervelo, Santa Cruz, Kona etc, etc, makes bikes. They are contracted out.

Happy Feet

I wish we could get back to discussing ways of determining whether wheel size effects speed rather than whether JH is a scientist because, at the end of the day, we are just talking about him and not the idea.

I think many people would be interested in rolling resistance BUT temper that desire against a competing need for puncture resistance. Caveat* unless they are racing.
When I commute or tour I want to get from A to B as fast as I can (all things being equal) but don't want an increase in punctures. That's why I usually default to Gatorskins or, non tour, currently GP 5000's. I have shied away from Compass only because they seem to lack such protection. However, in 700c there are lots of options available to experiment finding the sweet spot between the two values.

The problem I see in the 26" range is a lack of similar performance oriented tires other than the Compass brand. The closest I have come is Paselas in 1.75 which feel like they roll fast (much more so than Marathons) but attract punctures like the plague. Something about the tread catching particles long enough to let them penetrate it seems. I suppose I will try 26" Compass at some point but for most I suspect the price point is very dear to experiment with given the competing concern about puncture protection. Most on 26" road bikes are not racing but using them in a utility sense so that has a higher priority.

70sSanO

Except for Specialized, and maybe a couple others, Trek, for example, made their own bikes for many years. The had their own manufacturing facilities, but like everyone else have gone overseas to have bike frames made. For them it was economics.

Rene Herse never made tires, nor any facilities to make them. They never had the manufacturing expertise. Nothing wrong with that, but to say their background is similar to Trek is not really comparable.

John

Cyclist0108

What does testing for differences (or lack) between wheel-sizes have anything to do with promoting their tire sales (especially given the majority of the tires they sell are 700C)?

(Also, Panaracer makes their tires, in Japan, from what I understand.)

AlmostTrick

I suspect that Jan has more experience and expertise testing and designing tires than any of the posters here, but I could be wrong. Instead of posting only criticism, show us your credentials and body of work. Without that, it's all talk.

smashndash

Yeah this a lot of hoopla over a fairly weak claim of “small changes in tire diameter do not measurably change rolling resistance on mostly smooth pavement as long as you use supple tires”.

People are acting like the logical conclusion from this is that we should all dump our 700c wheels and go to 650b and buy rene herse tires. To me, it signifies that maybe we should consider specifying 650b (or smaller) wheels on bikes for people under 5’ 5” so that they fit better on their bikes.

Bill in VA

Jan Heine and Rene Herse (previously Compass) have always said they worked with Panaracer to develop their tire. Panaracers are well thought of and Rene Herse took a no compromise risk to work with Panaracer to develop a better tire and make (and market) them in previously neglected (or out of fashion) sizes.

It must be having a positive effect as Continental offers their GP5000 in 32mm, where the GP4000SII maxed out at 28mm.

70sSanO

That is fair enough. Some people revere him as some genius. He has done interesting stuff but has gone to whatever lengths necessary to promote it. It’s not like he doesn’t have a financial interest in his work.

He promotes certain attributes of his products, or certain attributes that will point to his products. But everything has some give and take.

I do feel his work of wider tires is really valuable. If I had a road bike that accepted wider tires I would entertain going there, but probably not his tires. Just like I don’t buy the lowest rolling resistance mountain bike tires, I‘ll buy what seems to fit where I ride.

John

woodcraft

He was testing and experimenting long before resurrecting the Rene Herse brand.

ofajen

I bought a pair of the 26” RTPs a couple of years ago and have a lot of miles on them. Something like 4000-5000. Just had to replace the rear one, as it had worn thin and had started to flat regularly. The front tire is still in use and has never had a flat.

Anyway, as we’ve both said, not a lot of wide “roadish” options in 26”. The best alternative I’ve come up with so far is the Continental Contact Speed in the 26x2.0 size. The guy from NL tested the 37mm version and it’s a couple watts more than the 35 Bon Jon Pass. I now have the 26x2.0 version on the rear and I would guess that it is a couple of watts more than the RTP, but pretty close. It should offer better protection against flats for the rear tire than the RTP. We shall see!

Considering how well the RTP has done in front, I figure I will replace it with another RTP once it’s worn out.

Otto

pdlamb

OTOH I have ridden on roads that had pieces of steel drums littered all over them.

Good point. I'm looking forward to seeing how the GP5000 lasts in MY real world tests -- puncture resistance and longevity being key parameters, now that I'm looking at tires with better rolling resistance.

fourfa

It's also been often discussed that Continental revised their labeling in between those two releases. The GP4000s only ran true to size on narrow (~17mm inside width) rims, which were normal when they were released in 2005 - the "28mm" GP4KSII inflates to a measured 32mm on my wide 22mm-internal wheels, which is a huge discrepancy. The GP5000 with the same markings run narrower on the same rims - the "28mm" GP5KTL on the same rims measures 30.5mm. I can't say if the 32mm 5k is actually 32mm, or if it's actually wider than the old 28s (I also can't speak for the tubed version).

More a case of adjusting labeling to keep up with the times, than anything else in my opinion.

Bill in VA

True about the 28mm GP4000SII. On my Alexrims A23 (17mm inside) my 28s were actually 30.5 also.

ofajen

ETRTO recently revised their standards as to the rim width they will use for various tire widths, and shifted to wider rims. So manufacturers are adapting to this change, and labeling tires based on the expectation of being mounted on the wider rims per that spec.

Otto

Ferrouscious 

I don't even believe in tires

Kapusta

He spec’ed them. That is critical. Had he not done that, those kind of tires would not have come to market. Its not like Panaracer was already making them (they were not).

The fact that he does not personally mix up the rubber and pour it in the moulds himself is pretty much a non-issue, IMO.

How many bike companies weld up their own frames? Or produce the steel or Al they are made of?

AnthonyG

Debating the pro's and con's of 700c vs 650c is nothing new. 700c will roll a little smoother, I'll give them that and on rough surfaces that will certainly help.

I ride 650c on a custom bike as I'm only 5'1", and on a group ride a few years ago I rolled away on a decent from a bunch of people on 700c bikes. SO many factors to take into account yet its not like the 650c wheels were an anchor that was holding me back.

tomato coupe

I think it's a pretty safe bet that Continental's decision to offer GP5000 in 32mm width is unrelated to anything Jan Heine did.

70sSanO

I would think wider tires came about initially for use on gravel bikes since the wider tires provided better shock absorption and stability. The additional comfort on semi-smooth road surfaces was a plus and the fact there wasn’t a rolling penalty made it an even better choice.

700c/29er is the dominant wheel size and will continue to be so. If testing proved that a different size Is better the industry would probably not change after all these years. Too many bikes are already out there for decades. It would have to be earth shattering improvements.

The 29er is 622 and one would think that is was economically more feasible to use the same diameter as a traditional road rim than conduct extensive testing for the exact optimized diameter. As... is 622 really better than 610 or 630, or is just being better than a 26er (559) all that was needed?

John

Camilo

I have no basis in theory or experience in this area, but would a comparison between a 650c road bike and a similar "quality" 700c road bike come close to the? Similar in quality and design of frameset, wheels, componentry, gearing (meaning the geared differently at the crank and/or cassette so the functional gearing the rider experiences is the same). Maybe the rider would have to be small-ish so that either frame/wheel set up could be made to fit well.

Just writing that, even with good faith effort in controlling, there is so many possible meaningful differences other than simply wheel size. Aerodynamics of the rider being possibly huge.

ofajen

As I mentioned above, ETRTO recently revised their standards as to the standard rim width for various tire widths, and shifted to wider rims for many nominal tire widths. So manufacturers like Continental are adapting to this change, and labeling tires based on the expectation of being mounted on the wider rims per that spec.

Thus they now make the GP 5000 slightly narrower for a given labeled size, expecting the wider rims now in use to compensate somewhat.

Otto

rebel1916

lol