You like campy? Just like campy!!
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,670
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1250 Post(s)
Liked 1,336 Times
in
682 Posts
Campagnolo almost killed the premium bicycle industry by their stagnation in the 70’s and 80’s. Yes they built a premium product when compare to the European manufacturers at the time however there was no innovation or product improvement for decades. Japanese top tier components were better right out of the gate and caused renewed interest and demand for product.
#27
Senior Member
Campagnolo almost killed the premium bicycle industry by their stagnation in the 70’s and 80’s. Yes they built a premium product when compare to the European manufacturers at the time however there was no innovation or product improvement for decades. Japanese top tier components were better right out of the gate and caused renewed interest and demand for product.
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,834 Times
in
1,998 Posts
Campagnolo almost killed the premium bicycle industry by their stagnation in the 70’s and 80’s. Yes they built a premium product when compare to the European manufacturers at the time however there was no innovation or product improvement for decades. Japanese top tier components were better right out of the gate and caused renewed interest and demand for product.
the Mavic group puzzles in there too.
#29
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,983
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked 990 Times
in
657 Posts
#30
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,983
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked 990 Times
in
657 Posts
you are not old enough. The French with the Spidel syndicate had improved product but not well accepted. Shimano was not really taken seriously until the 7400 series DuraAce. The EX group had some good ideas but not good enough. Campagnolo from the “Nuovo Record” group innovated at a glacial pace. The last rear mech had more capacity, a better primary spring but very evolutionary geometry.
the Mavic group puzzles in there too.
the Mavic group puzzles in there too.
Last edited by georges1; 08-03-23 at 01:22 AM.
#31
Senior Member
you are not old enough. The French with the Spidel syndicate had improved product but not well accepted. Shimano was not really taken seriously until the 7400 series DuraAce. The EX group had some good ideas but not good enough. Campagnolo from the “Nuovo Record” group innovated at a glacial pace. The last rear mech had more capacity, a better primary spring but very evolutionary geometry.
the Mavic group puzzles in there too.
the Mavic group puzzles in there too.
And to think that this little gem coexisted with the Nuovo Record.
Then there was the whole long cage derailleur fiasco in which they once again took the top spot as the undisputed deliverer of contempt for anything not race related. Sure, we'll make you a touring derailleur. It will be a bad copy of the Shimano Crane, it will be 3 times the price, and it will break 3 times as fast. You are welcome.
They niche themselves into irrelevance. Today the cycling industry size is around $101.92 billion. Campagnolo market share of that is $142 million, or 0.139%.Shimano on the other hand has a 50% market share in all parts, and 70% of the high end market.
Likes For abdon:
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 590
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 192 Post(s)
Liked 568 Times
in
198 Posts
Nothing qualifies somebody for entry into the elite club of amateur cycling industry/equipment history critics as much as harsh criticism of Campagnolo. If one wants to enter the top level of the club, one only need to predict the imminent demise of the company for lack of sales. Very often, the criticism for Campagnolo is accompanied by gushing praise for SunTour. If ever there was an overrated company, that was it. They had a good invention….one….the slant parallelogram derailleur. The vast majority of their group sets was comprised of components badge engineered from other makers within the Japanese component industry. In the day, SunTour components were almost always selected for one reason…low price. Relative to their manufactured numbers they are rare today, mostly because they were made with very soft alloys that did not hold up. Broken from derailleur clamps, broken and stripped cable anchors, etc. were all the hallmarks. In the end, the market made its choice and Campagnolo survives today and is doing quite well, and SunTour went the way of the Corsair.
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,472
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 882 Post(s)
Liked 2,310 Times
in
1,292 Posts
I know nothing about the modern components . I’m stuck in the seventies and my seventies gear is working just fine. Whether it is the Campagnolo NR / SR stuff or the wonderful SunTour Cyclone or Superbe stuff , it just works. Fortunately they made boat loads of gear back then and my bikes are all working as good as they ever have , some for over 50 years. It’s pretty hard to argue that the longevity exceeded most expectations. I have around 15 bikes , most are Campagnolo equipped and period correct. The only failure in my humble 50 years of riding is a Nuovo GS rear derailleur that had a cage loosen and I was able to repair it easily. Campagnolo or Shimano makes no money on me! One of my riding friends has a very nice Specialized carbon bike that he paid more for than I have in my entire fleet. We both live up on a hill and when we leave for a ride , both coasting down hill , my bike rolls past him and he says” there goes those Campy bearings!” We are the same weight , he may be 10lbs heavier ,I don’t really know , but my old HF Record hubs roll very nicely!
Last edited by Kabuki12; 08-03-23 at 06:37 AM.
Likes For Kabuki12:
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 16,897
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1865 Post(s)
Liked 665 Times
in
507 Posts
Nah, Campagnolo began losing it way before that, and largely out of their own arrogance. As far back as the mid 70's they knew they needed to go after the mass market, but honestly it looks like they felt it was beneath them. so they created the perfect blend of garbage to show their contempt and priced higher than the oh so much better Japanese offerings. In 1976 or thereof enter the Nuovo Valentino:
And to think that this little gem coexisted with the Nuovo Record.
Then there was the whole long cage derailleur fiasco in which they once again took the top spot as the undisputed deliverer of contempt for anything not race related. Sure, we'll make you a touring derailleur. It will be a bad copy of the Shimano Crane, it will be 3 times the price, and it will break 3 times as fast. You are welcome.
They niche themselves into irrelevance. Today the cycling industry size is around $101.92 billion. Campagnolo market share of that is $142 million, or 0.139%.Shimano on the other hand has a 50% market share in all parts, and 70% of the high end market.
And to think that this little gem coexisted with the Nuovo Record.
Then there was the whole long cage derailleur fiasco in which they once again took the top spot as the undisputed deliverer of contempt for anything not race related. Sure, we'll make you a touring derailleur. It will be a bad copy of the Shimano Crane, it will be 3 times the price, and it will break 3 times as fast. You are welcome.
They niche themselves into irrelevance. Today the cycling industry size is around $101.92 billion. Campagnolo market share of that is $142 million, or 0.139%.Shimano on the other hand has a 50% market share in all parts, and 70% of the high end market.
Did Shimano come out with a Chorus analog which delivered sometimes higher quality than Record, and nearly always better price/performance value? Early '80s Ultegra was in the right price point, but not in the same ballpark in quality and function. S and C were just very different companies!
Likes For Road Fan:
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,860
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3560 Post(s)
Liked 2,978 Times
in
1,801 Posts
#36
Senior Member
. Why should you say Campy was losing it when they may have just seen a 1950's market niche which could greatly help their bottom line even if they only captured 10% of the whole post-WW2 European bike parts market. Kudos for agility to be able to grow that production line while maintaining development and sales in the Tour/Giro racer and aspirant sectors. Sounds to me like a company with a staff too busy to become arrogant!
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,834 Times
in
1,998 Posts
Nah, Campagnolo began losing it way before that, and largely out of their own arrogance. As far back as the mid 70's they knew they needed to go after the mass market, but honestly it looks like they felt it was beneath them. so they created the perfect blend of garbage to show their contempt and priced higher than the oh so much better Japanese offerings. In 1976 or thereof enter the Nuovo Valentino:
And to think that this little gem coexisted with the Nuovo Record.
Then there was the whole long cage derailleur fiasco in which they once again took the top spot as the undisputed deliverer of contempt for anything not race related. Sure, we'll make you a touring derailleur. It will be a bad copy of the Shimano Crane, it will be 3 times the price, and it will break 3 times as fast. You are welcome.
They niche themselves into irrelevance. Today the cycling industry size is around $101.92 billion. Campagnolo market share of that is $142 million, or 0.139%.Shimano on the other hand has a 50% market share in all parts, and 70% of the high end market.
And to think that this little gem coexisted with the Nuovo Record.
Then there was the whole long cage derailleur fiasco in which they once again took the top spot as the undisputed deliverer of contempt for anything not race related. Sure, we'll make you a touring derailleur. It will be a bad copy of the Shimano Crane, it will be 3 times the price, and it will break 3 times as fast. You are welcome.
They niche themselves into irrelevance. Today the cycling industry size is around $101.92 billion. Campagnolo market share of that is $142 million, or 0.139%.Shimano on the other hand has a 50% market share in all parts, and 70% of the high end market.
in the middle-ish 1970’s arrived the Nuovo Gran Sport- G.S. In the USA probably most often seen on the Raleigh Competition G.S.
Canpagnolo reduced the style of it where they did not have to. The finish of the steel parts also. Probably an error. Good styling should not be tossed just to present a price point appearance.
#38
Senior Member
that Nuovo Valentino existed for the Italian city bike market. Was not seen in the USA much.
in the middle-ish 1970’s arrived the Nuovo Gran Sport- G.S. In the USA probably most often seen on the Raleigh Competition G.S.
Canpagnolo reduced the style of it where they did not have to. The finish of the steel parts also. Probably an error. Good styling should not be tossed just to present a price point appearance.
in the middle-ish 1970’s arrived the Nuovo Gran Sport- G.S. In the USA probably most often seen on the Raleigh Competition G.S.
Canpagnolo reduced the style of it where they did not have to. The finish of the steel parts also. Probably an error. Good styling should not be tossed just to present a price point appearance.
Take another hard look at that Nuovo Valentino. It was ugly, it was cheaply built, and it was still more expensive than the better performing Shimano or Suntour of the era.
Likes For abdon:
#39
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 1,993
Bikes: several Eddy Merz (ride like Eddy, braze like Jim!)
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1105 Post(s)
Liked 1,870 Times
in
684 Posts
Anyway, I thought these pedals were cute with the “Italian Inspired” engraved on them.
Carry on.
Carry on.
__________________
"Leave the gun. Take the Colnagos."
"Leave the gun. Take the Colnagos."
Likes For Robvolz:
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,860
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3560 Post(s)
Liked 2,978 Times
in
1,801 Posts
EDIT: Actually, maybe Campy should have stamped that on its slant-parallelogram derailleurs, LOL!! They might have received more business!
Last edited by smd4; 08-03-23 at 12:00 PM.
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, Va
Posts: 9,588
Bikes: '65 Frejus TDF, '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Veneto, '88 De Rosa Pro, '89 Pinarello Montello, '94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster, Tern Link D8
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1616 Post(s)
Liked 2,218 Times
in
1,105 Posts
I am of the opinion that the equipment is a small percentage of the success of professional rider. not enough to support the differences between 1st and second place. Of course, this s qualified by assuming the same level of functionality and reliability.
__________________
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Likes For SJX426:
#42
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,654
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1300 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4690 Post(s)
Liked 5,837 Times
in
2,297 Posts
I get your drift, but not sure I would completely agree with you. The first gen DuraAce sucked compared to Campy. And remember that Campy was always a really small company compared to Shimano, who was an industrial giant. It also killed me that the design team(s) at Shimano could not agree on simple things like a common brake lever/hoods, and how much in the Shimano world wasn't really rebuildable. One of my favorite quotes from back in the day re: Campy (NR/SR stuff) was that it "has its idiosyncrasies, but it works the same way, every time. And it doesn't break." Loose quote but you get the gist of it.
When Jim Merz starts the story with "When I was at Tulio's wake..." you shut up, lean forward, and listen.
As for Campy NR/SR never breaking, rear axles and drive side crank arms were definite weak points. As a mechanical engineer, I'd consider both of these as design flaws.
It does irk me that while Campy components could be readily rebuilt (and many bike shops had that cute little Campy spare parts cabinets), Shimano never seemed to want to support that, and pushed the upgrade every few years mantra.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#43
aka: Dr. Cannondale
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,747
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2158 Post(s)
Liked 3,441 Times
in
1,214 Posts
An interesting discussion, for sure.
Except Dura Ace first gen (or at least 7100, which I consider first gen as the RD did not say ‘Crane’) most assuredly did not suck when compared to similar Campagnolo offerings of the period. I’ve owned and ridden a bunch of both and still ride the DA 7100. They both had their quirks, but if one sucked, so did the other.
Compared with anything Shimano made after 1985, though…yeah, not as good.
Except Dura Ace first gen (or at least 7100, which I consider first gen as the RD did not say ‘Crane’) most assuredly did not suck when compared to similar Campagnolo offerings of the period. I’ve owned and ridden a bunch of both and still ride the DA 7100. They both had their quirks, but if one sucked, so did the other.
Compared with anything Shimano made after 1985, though…yeah, not as good.
__________________
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
Likes For rccardr:
#44
Senior Member
gugie , I have to admit that I have a very biased view on the subject because my niche is not racing components. I think the culture that hindered campy did so across the entire spectrum but outside of racing those failings were amplified and more obvious.
Heck for a while even tiny suntour was eating their lunch and for twenty years all campy did was to try to convince everybody that wasn't so.
Heck for a while even tiny suntour was eating their lunch and for twenty years all campy did was to try to convince everybody that wasn't so.
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,834 Times
in
1,998 Posts
Our own @Portlandjim was right in the middle of this, visiting both Campagnolo and Shimano when he was working for Specialized, First gen Dura Ace did suck, but the Japanese have a Kaizen philosphy, and eventually surpassed Campy (sorry @Choke). I've heard the story first hand along with others:
When Jim Merz starts the story with "When I was at Tulio's wake..." you shut up, lean forward, and listen.
As for Campy NR/SR never breaking, rear axles and drive side crank arms were definite weak points. As a mechanical engineer, I'd consider both of these as design flaws.
It does irk me that while Campy components could be readily rebuilt (and many bike shops had that cute little Campy spare parts cabinets), Shimano never seemed to want to support that, and pushed the upgrade every few years mantra.
When Jim Merz starts the story with "When I was at Tulio's wake..." you shut up, lean forward, and listen.
As for Campy NR/SR never breaking, rear axles and drive side crank arms were definite weak points. As a mechanical engineer, I'd consider both of these as design flaws.
It does irk me that while Campy components could be readily rebuilt (and many bike shops had that cute little Campy spare parts cabinets), Shimano never seemed to want to support that, and pushed the upgrade every few years mantra.
‘Campagnolo did finally address the drive side crank design issues, on the cusp of Corsa Record. A bit late.
‘the shop I worked for had an Equipto industrial drawer cabinet with Three! Drawers devoted to Campagnolo. Rare was the repair that required an urgent order.
for the chronic axle benders we guided them to Phil Wood.
Shimano did try to answer the small parts problem with an order from Shimano direct system for spare parts 1975-76, the minimum qty per part was often silly. 25 pr of EX brake and pad holder pairs?
we just fit Campagnolo pads and holders.
lead times were poor too, most had to come by air from Japan. Shimano did bury that cost but cumbersome. Prepaid or COD.
#46
I’m a little Surly
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Near the district
Posts: 2,423
Bikes: Two Cross Checks, a Karate Monkey, a Disc Trucker, and a VO Randonneur
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 699 Post(s)
Liked 1,297 Times
in
648 Posts
Does anyone on this thread know how Campagnolo measures success?
I didn't grow up in the era of campy domination, I grew up with the domination of mountain bikes which were pretty much all Shimano all the time, I just don't have the fond memories of campy that many of the oldsters do.
As my username implies I'm not in the states, I moved to Germany in 2005 and it was nearly impossible to find a bike that had campy in a normal bike shop, in 2012 I raced CX for a shop in Stuttgart which really just served the high end because they were a Colnago dealer they had some campy but they were somewhat unique in that.
Now if I go to FahrradXXL a fairly large German chain bike shop I can buy an in stock road or gravel bike with campy off the sales floor, wile Ekar will never be as common as SRAM and Shimano it's available at normal shops (around me) at a competitive price.
IMHO gravel is mountain bike circa 1988 and campy has a place in that market, the pro peloton is only one place to measure success.
===
In Germany_chris' world Campagnolo has the best hood shape, SRAM has the best shifting mechanism, and Shimano is the most available. I'm going to build a new bike in the next couple months and that bike will most likely be shifted by SRAM because when push comes to shove I trust SRAM more then the other two.
I didn't grow up in the era of campy domination, I grew up with the domination of mountain bikes which were pretty much all Shimano all the time, I just don't have the fond memories of campy that many of the oldsters do.
As my username implies I'm not in the states, I moved to Germany in 2005 and it was nearly impossible to find a bike that had campy in a normal bike shop, in 2012 I raced CX for a shop in Stuttgart which really just served the high end because they were a Colnago dealer they had some campy but they were somewhat unique in that.
Now if I go to FahrradXXL a fairly large German chain bike shop I can buy an in stock road or gravel bike with campy off the sales floor, wile Ekar will never be as common as SRAM and Shimano it's available at normal shops (around me) at a competitive price.
IMHO gravel is mountain bike circa 1988 and campy has a place in that market, the pro peloton is only one place to measure success.
===
In Germany_chris' world Campagnolo has the best hood shape, SRAM has the best shifting mechanism, and Shimano is the most available. I'm going to build a new bike in the next couple months and that bike will most likely be shifted by SRAM because when push comes to shove I trust SRAM more then the other two.
Last edited by Germany_chris; 08-03-23 at 12:42 PM.
Likes For Germany_chris:
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 14,751
Bikes: Yes
Mentioned: 525 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3235 Post(s)
Liked 3,882 Times
in
1,442 Posts
If Campy didn't break, one wonders why the cabinet of small parts was necessary.
On the other hand, Shimano makes me crazy. They have a wonderful archive of online documents detailing every part of their components, but even with recent stuff those parts are generally unobtainable. I once broke a dust cap on a Shimano hub and went to my LBS to try to get a replacement. I had the exact Shimano part number and a link to the exploded view on Shimano's website, but the best the LBS was able to do was rummage through a drawer looking for something else that might have been compatible. Meanwhile, I'm only in the past couple of years having trouble sourcing the parts to rebuild Campy shifters that were made 20 years ago -- and I was able to find a source for those, it just took more than five minutes of looking, which hadn't been true a couple of years ago.
On the other hand, Shimano makes me crazy. They have a wonderful archive of online documents detailing every part of their components, but even with recent stuff those parts are generally unobtainable. I once broke a dust cap on a Shimano hub and went to my LBS to try to get a replacement. I had the exact Shimano part number and a link to the exploded view on Shimano's website, but the best the LBS was able to do was rummage through a drawer looking for something else that might have been compatible. Meanwhile, I'm only in the past couple of years having trouble sourcing the parts to rebuild Campy shifters that were made 20 years ago -- and I was able to find a source for those, it just took more than five minutes of looking, which hadn't been true a couple of years ago.
__________________
My Bikes
My Bikes
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Whittier
Posts: 884
Bikes: 1973 Colnago Super, Litespeed Classic , Automoto , Pinarello Gavia TSX,Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra,Eddy Merckx EMX-5 , 1982 Moser SL, Concorde TSX, Vitus 979 KAS. Diamant SLX,60's Meteor
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked 956 Times
in
332 Posts
Likes For Manny66:
#49
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,654
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1300 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4690 Post(s)
Liked 5,837 Times
in
2,297 Posts
#50
Steel is real
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Not far from Paris
Posts: 1,983
Bikes: 1992Giant Tourer,1992MeridaAlbon,1996Scapin,1998KonaKilaueua,1993Peugeot Prestige,1991RaleighTeamZ(to be upgraded),1998 Jamis Dragon,1992CTWallis(to be built),1998VettaTeam(to be built),1995Coppi(to be built),1993Grandis(to be built)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked 990 Times
in
657 Posts
Did Shimano come out with a Chorus analog which delivered sometimes higher quality than Record, and nearly always better price/performance value? Early '80s Ultegra was in the right price point, but not in the same ballpark in quality and function. S and C were just very different companies!