79pmooney

Froome was a decent but not better bike racer until he signed up with Sky, a team known for attracting good but not great riders and getting very strong performances out of them. Funny, when riders leave Sky, they go back to being good but not great.

Sagan has always showed natural talent. He could probably have grown up playing soccer and be a top pro at that. Sagan also is about as open and "out there" as anyone at the top level of sports. That is a claim Froome and Sky cannot make.

Ben

79pmooney

I have thought since I first started hearing of Sagan that he was born a step above the rest of us, much like Eddy Merckx was. Both were/are the whole package. Incredible physical specimens. Incredible drive to win. They are not the same. For Merckx is was all about winning every time he started a race. (He won one for every three he rode for his career.) For Sagan it is about the show. Merckx probably had more power, power to weight and stage race recover ability. Sagan is other-worldly for bike handling skills and has some real sprint speed.

What we saw at Paris-Roubaix was Sagan's drive. Usually he directs it elsewhere But he had been hearing for years about his inabilities in that race. For "Mr Publicity", that was working on him. And he is a smart bike racer. Pulling the long grueling solo break is not the showy stunt he likes to pull, but he saw that, for this race, the opportunity was there and to win P-R is huge publicity even if it isn't done in flashy Sagan style.

Ben

brianmcg123

Exactly. Or NFL football. I have a brother in law that will swear up and down the NFL players are clean because "They get drug tested in the off-season.". I'm always baffled by his thought process. Billions of dollars at stake in NFL, but they are clean. LOL.

I learned at a very early age, that if there is money or fame involved, then people will try everything they can to get an edge. I also learned that all pro athletes are doped. Its just the way it is. You can choose to believe that your favorite soccer player, tennis pro or cyclist isn't, but that's just being naive at best and really stupid at worst.

Colnago Mixte

I guess you could say the old champs like Anquetil never doped, technically, because what they did wasn't against the rules at the time. So was it doping? Arguably not.

Just like when Schwartzenegger was asked about steroids, he said of course he took 'em, but they were not illegal at the time, so there should be no moral dilemma about what he did, it was within the rules as they existed at the time.

I honestly don't mind if these people dope, it's great watching a champ like Sagan take TDF stages World's RR wins, and one day classics. There's a really impressive loop of his wins, I have not seen anyone like Sagan in a long time.


Plus the guy looks like Jesus Christ on a bike, with mad mad bike skilz, which doesn't hurt.

Flip Flop Rider

well, if they are all doing it, then it's a level playing field. So doped Froome vs. doped Sagan is ok with me

they are tested pretty extensively I think. If someone invents a new substance that is not tested for or cannot be detected, then what's the answer

​​​​​​​level playing field is what people want

brianmcg123

CliffordK

An interesting thing about the fickle nature of public opinion.

A year ago, Sagan and Cavendish crashed into each other. Initial reports indicated that in the crash, Sagan's elbow came up, and he was ejected from the TdF.

Downloading as many videos as possible from different angles, "internet analysis" seemed to indicate that Cavendish had ridden from behind into a hole that wasn't there, and the "elbow" may have actually been an attempt to avoid contact with overlapping bikes.

Sagan was eventually cleared of charges (after missing the race due to a poor call).

Yet, half of the BF members refused to accept that Sagan didn't appear to have intentionally elbowed Cavendish, and may not have actually elbowed him at all.

Now, Froome was accused of using his inhaler too much.
The initial report failed to account for urine concentration.
In fact, it turns out that the basic research the standards were based on failed to even collect urine concentration data, and failed to take into account the rigors of long distance bike racing.

Yet for certain forumites, Froome is "Guilty" of cheating even after having his name cleared.

And, of course, Sagan has returned to golden boy status with the events of last summer forgotten.

Flip Flop Rider

I don't view Froome as dislikable, but he doesn't have the charisma of Sagan. Plus Sky is the team everyone hates

Am wondering how their team seems so much better than the others, even with riders coming and going

MinnMan

I haven't reviewed the threads, but to my recollection the opinion on BF at the time was strongly in Sagan's favor pretty much as soon as the videos became available.

MinnMan

Probably important to remember that among female fans, there are those who haven't forgiven him for his indiscretion on the podium when he was young (patting a podium girl's bottom)

More money.

79pmooney

Re: Sagan - if you look at that footage much earlier, you see that when Sagan is still in the middle of that very wide road, Cavendish is near even with him (and certainly overlapped) and riding right against the barrier. So. from long before the famous seconds before the contact and crash, Cavendish had established his right to a clear lane to the finish. Now, Cavendish is a feral cat and when you close the door on him, he fights dirty. But the right to that passage was always his. Whether the crash came from Sagan's elbow or Cavendish trying to muscle Sagan aside doesn't matter. Sagan had no business being there, shutting the door on a rider who long before established his position.

Ben

MinnMan

OK, I stand corrected - Cavendish has his partisans here also.

CliffordK

It has been a while since I've seen the footage, but if I remember right, Cavendish came up from behind, so he was trying to make a hole where there was no hole.

For the most part, the whole field moved right. Curve in the road? So, if you wish to blame someone, blame the person to the far left who smashed the whole field to the right. There was a half a road open to the person on the left track. Sagan had no space left to move left even if he wished to give the rider coming from his rear more space.

There was one rider that fought his way left, almost clipping the tires of a couple of riders. Had he caused a wreck, it would have certainly been suspicious, but Cavindish should have also fought left since there was no place to go to the right.

hobbs1951

Froome was not cleared, the matter was dropped...money and abilty to acquire the"best"legal representation"won", two other riders failed the same test-at lower-doses-and were banned. Remember Froome was disqualified from the 2010 Giro after hitching a ride on a motorbike, when caught he said he had intended to quit (citing knee problems) !!! Brailsford has complained to the tour organisers ASO about angry fans, perhaps he should condier why they are angry, Team Sky have never been very open or - to use the modern cliche - transparent about either Froome's case or indeed Wiggins - that matter has still not gone away, and it will not any time soon.
Team Sky are tainted (and now with the Moscon incident), if I their sponsor I'd have to consider a withdrawal, British Cycling have distanced themselves by removing Team Sky from the Manchester Velodrome.

John.

alathIN

I have no idea if Froome is dirty, but I'm not at all impressed with the salbutamol brouhaha. It's a first line asthma medication that I prescribe regularly. I saw Froome's presser the day in the Vuelta when he had an asthma attack and he was clearly having difficulty breathing. Urine levels are notoriously inaccurate at predicting serum levels of anything. The performance benefits of beta sympathomimetics are questionable if any, and if they did have a benefit, it would be abusing it in training. There would no performance benefit whatsoever for Froome to over-use his inhaler on a single day in the Vuelta.

I have no idea if Sagan is dirty.

In general, PEDs would likely be more beneficial for climber types who need to maximize watts/kg. Less so for a sprinter/puncheur, unless you're talking about anabolic steriods, which would be very hard to get away with in the current testing regime.

I'm not naive enough to think pro cycling is overall clean, but I do have the impression that it's cleaner than in the past. The testing regime is extensive and the biological passport gives longitudinal data that would enable detection of suspicious changes. Whatever doping is going on in my opinion is less widespread, and with less potent substances, than in the past.

Geriant Thomas' performance in this Tour gives some credibility that Froome could be doing this clean. The effect of having such a dominating team with so many high level riders seems to be that any reasonably solid GC rider can do very well supported by that All-Star team.

And, by the way, I'm not any kind of Sky fan. Their overwhelming resources have made grand tours much less interesting than they otherwise would be. And Froome just isn't the kind of personality that makes me want to root for him. That said, I don't think he should be persecuted for his asthma medication, pushed off his bike, or have urine thrown at him.

alathIN

It's true that the same case against a smaller team would have resulted in a sanction (and has in the past) - but most likely unjustly.
The doctor upon whose work the urine thresholds were set has subsequently said he was wrong and that he didn't account for the variance in urine levels. He has specifically said that the previous riders who were penalized under this standard were victims of false positive testing.

And much of Sky's resources in this case were spent medical expertise, not just assault lawyers.

You're right that Sky is probably the only team that could afford to purchase justice in this case - but the outcome probably is just. They may have done a service for all of cycling by calling this unreliable testing methodology into question.

Again, I'm not a Sky fan. Their overwhelming resources have unbalanced the whole sport. Brailsford makes my skin crawl every time he opens his mouth and spews forth another mass of content-free word salad. But disliking the team doesn't change my opinion as a clinician that the right call was made in this case.

Chicago Al 

A few thoughts (and I agree 100% with alathIN above):

Sagan doesn't win because he's the absolute fastest or strongest among the sprinters. He's not. And he loses sometimes to guys who are, Gaviria or Griepel to name two. He wins because he's cannier than other sprinters, he sees opportunities they don't, he handles the bike like it's part of his body, he times his moves (usually) impeccably, and when things go right, he puts in a very good burst of speed, and (just watched S13) throws his bike at the line better than anyone. What he *doesn't* do is crash, or miss the time cut, or pound his handlebars when he doesn't win. I don't see any way you can attribute his accomplishments to doping, and if so, then give me some of whatever he's taking.

Further: my wife and daughters love him. They don't count the butt-grab against him, it was rude and immature but a joke, not harassment. Wife watched a video of Sagan's exercise routine, said it was amazing: he is incredibly flexible. (I am just fine with her watching Sagan exercise; if she feels a bit frisky later on, so much the better, though insisting I grow my hair out and wear a Bora jersey to bed is pushing it a bit.)

I can't hate Froome, he seems like a decent guy and he has remarkable skills besides an evidently freakish body. And that inhaler thing was not right, especially the way it was publicized. He's just not fun to watch, nor is the whole Sky machine. I actually like G Thomas too (someone has to keep the Mod hair going), but Sky wins and dominates in a way that just seems to suck the enjoyment out of the sport. That whole grinding, mechanical style (and Froome spinning and watching his watt meter)...and of course the fact that Sky's budget allows them to buy up what would be GC contenders and turn them into domestiques. I was describing the Tour to a colleague on a long driving trip recently, got into why we watch it, why Sagan is makes it so enjoyable, why Dan Martin has so much heart though he'll never win the Tour, why Sky almost spoils it all, and she (a baseball fan) said, 'Oh, they're like the Yankees!' I think that pretty much sums it up.

Wildwood 

Caretaker

I don't think either Froome or Sagan are doping but that doesn't mean they aren't, just that there's no evidence they are and I'm willing accept they are clean until someone produces evidence.

one4smoke

Good read.

Chicago Al 

Thanks, man! And enjoy riding around Nashville...I grew up there though the only cycling I did was on our little street near Woodmont Blvd.

Here is the Sagan exercise routine my wife was talking about. It is pretty impressive. The next auto-play is an extended version of the Sagan Specialized ad vs Grandma Joan, it's pretty funny and is further evidence he could be a breakout (into the wider world) star for the sport.

alathIN

Yes, and...

Although he may not be the absolute fastest guy in any given situation, he's versatile enough that he's almost always in the top three.
Someone was quoting his number of TdF stage wins, which was impressive, but his number of second place finishes was totally off the charts.
If he can be in the top three every day while his competitors are invincible on one kind of sprint but hopeless in others, guess who wins the green jersey?

Also, Sagan can climb and descend and handle bad surfaces and bad weather and technical twists and off camber curves and whatever else you throw at him vastly better than any of the pure sprinters. On a stage with any kind of challenging conditions going on, there might be three or four sprinters faster than he is but they all got dropped before the actual sprint.

Flip Flop Rider

Sagan seems to not take himself too seriuosly even though he's the world champ 3 times. People like that

Froome is no less likable either

Really the attitude of most of the racers that get interviewed is pretty refreshing. They seem to be humble and appreciative of their fame

I loved the Taylor Phinney interview after he finished 10th in a sprint finish, and the interviewer asked him if if he could have finished higher (i'm paraphrasing). He said that when the big sprinters hit high gear he was already riding as fast as he could. A testament to the great sprinters

OBoile

It is amazing how many people (and not just related to cycling) refuse to change their initial opinion on something even after an in-depth investigation by experts shows that it is not correct.

Caretaker

So 'internet analysis' = 'in-depth investigation by experts' ?