arbee

Breaking my silence -- I rarely participate in A&S threads -- but @vol referenced this thread in the Northeast sub-forum.

@vol: "One article mentioned it was a no-truck route" -- Central Park West is, indeed, a "no-truck" route, but that's not an absolute prohibition. It limits truck travel to either short distances for either pick-ups or deliveries (it's safe to assume a garbage truck wouldn't be delivering garbage to a CPW address) or to connect between cross-town streets. "Short distances" is specific in the regulation, but I don't know the specifics. Evidence of the truck's actual itinerary would be necessary for this charge to be substantiated.

@soonerrebel: I mentioned the no-truck route thing first because while the charges you mention might -- strictly speaking -- may be applicable, in NY State, there's an informal "rule of 2": an arbitrary standard that holds that a motorist in NY State isn't charged with a driving-related criminal offense unless the motorist is breaking at least two traffic laws at the time of a crash. This practice has no statutory basis, but it is practice. This is one reason why, when there is prosecution related to motor vehicle operation, there's typically a litany of charges rather than just one.

@Paul Barnard: I find it always reassuring to read stuff like "...as a matter of practice every person that has anything to do with a disaster like that is debriefed thoroughly. Every person was given a chance to tell their story in terms of what they did correctly and what they would do differently if they had to do it again." Thanks. No further details here, but I've had a similar experience with the National Transportation Safety Administration (NTSB). IMHO, if it's possible to learn from crashes, this method is the only way.

@northernlights: At least in New York City, the term "protected bike lane" includes an internal contradiction: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/05/...-the-hospital/ And for context, Central Park West is the northern extension of 8th Av.

Paul Barnard

You are wise!

soonerrebel

@soonerrebel: I mentioned the no-truck route thing first because while the charges you mention might -- strictly speaking -- may be applicable, in NY State, there's an informal "rule of 2": an arbitrary standard that holds that a motorist in NY State isn't charged with a driving-related criminal offense unless the motorist is breaking at least two traffic laws at the time of a crash. This practice has no statutory basis, but it is practice. This is one reason why, when there is prosecution related to motor vehicle operation, there's typically a litany of charges rather than just one.


Interesting and verypeculiar. Of course the DA is not bound by this, since it has no statutory basis, and could file without meeting this informal rule standard. If would appear that this arbitrary standard, if followed by the DA, makes him or her somewhat of a rogue and the good people of New York are not getting full enforcement of the law. I appreciate the information .. thanks.

mr_bill

Yes. If you are operating with a CDL. Most of the rest of the world it is less. Not that it matters, because the person on bicycle could have done SOMETHING ANYTHING to prevent their own death, not that we are “blaming” her for “choosing” wrong.

-mr. bill

mr_bill

• Jason C. Anderson was not debriefed thoroughly
• Aaron Dale Burkeen was not debriefed thoroughly
• Donald Clark was not debriefed thoroughly
• Stephen Ray Curtis was not debriefed thoroughly
• Gordon L. Jones was not debriefed thoroughly
• Roy Wyatt Kemp was not debriefed thoroughly
• Karl D. Kleppinger, Jr. was not debriefed thoroughly
• Keith Blair Manuel was not debriefed thoroughly
• Dewey A. Revette was not debriefed thoroughly
• Shane M. Roshto was not debriefed thoroughly
• Adam Weise was not debriefed thoroughly
• Dan Hanegby was not debriefed thoroughly
• Madison Jane Lyden was not debriefed thoroughly

What does Deepwater Horizon have to do with this? Not ONE member of the USCG "opined" what could have been differently in the initial hours of the disaster. (FWIW, NOT ONE MEMBER of NTSA ever "opines" on what could have been differently in the initial hours of a disaster. NOT ONE. EVER.)

Facts first.

Now back to our regularly scheduled blame the victim threads....

-mr. bill

Daniel4

I was involved in an auto collision many years ago. We were all lined up on the highway on-ramp merging lane. Then suddenly, the first car slowed down and in a chain reaction most of the cars collided into the one in front. My driving habit is usually to follow at a long distance 2 to 3 seconds. So I had the room and the time to swerve and avoid making contact with the car in front. But the car behind me didn't.

I had swerved to avoid a collision and my potential death but did not have the time to plan an avoidance of the car behind.

As for this cyclist, I have no doubt his swerving was to avoid a collision in front and his potential death but he didn't have the time to check what was behind him since you rarely do when someone cuts you off.

Now, if the cyclist hadn't swerved and did collide into the car that cut him off, there would be no way to tell if he had attempted any collision avoidance procedure.

mr_bill

She/Her/Hers.

-mr. bill

Paul Barnard

I wasn't speaking for what BP, Transocean, NTSA or any other organization other than my own did.

Christ, I am amazed that presumably grown people will behave so childishly. I guess I am sending another one who can't have an adult conversation off to ignore land.

Rollfast

If it is a Commercial Driver's License, no blood alcohol level is legal.

The focus, whether the garbage truck driver is legally impaired or not is could they have done anything to avoid this and could they really see the cyclist?

People are trying to pin blame on one party and it's not simple. Several events created a complex situation. The crux of this bickering is pointless. We do not investigate crimes and incidents, we report on them. That is the job of others.

mr_bill

What did your OWN organization do in the first 36 hours after the disaster?

Did they wait for FACTS?

Or did *ANYONE* pre-conclude an investigation?

But hey, chicken-salad.

-mr. bill

mr_bill

Colnago Mixte

Livery? So there was a horse involved too? This accident has become too complicated for me to continue following the thread.

Milton Keynes

He's obviously not the only one. Once I was approaching an intersection on my bike (I had the right of way) with a car waiting at the stop sign to my right. I signaled to turn left by pointing left with my hand, they obviously thought I was telling them to go because they took off across the intersection right in front of me. If I had been a bit closer or they had left a little bit later, I'd likely have gotten creamed.

Don't they teach bicycle hand signals in driver's ed any more?

rumrunn6

poor thing. undivided bike lanes are almost useless

vol

When the Toyota/Uber pulled out from parking, had the bicyclist not been there, would the garbage truck with the DUI driver have hit the car? Probably not, because the car driver would likely have paid more attention when getting on the vehicle lane and checked the mirror to see the truck. Drivers are less careful when invading bike lanes because bikes are not a threat to them.

What I don't understand: in dooring accdients where a cyclist is hit by a passing bus/truck caused by someone opening car door, the person opening the door is held accountable while the bus/truck driver is often not (correct me if I'm wrong). So why is it different in this case, where the car driver doesn't get a ticket?

NY Times:
Maybe the time just before the midterm election is good for advocacy.

Chris0516

What is the point of arguing, when you can't argue the point, lol The pointer just becomes pointless, lol

Colnago Mixte

For as long as humans have existed, so has arguing.

In the northern climates, where days are short during the winter months, it became an obsession for some, who were unable to stop even when the days got longer and it was time to plant crops.

Many such argumentative, contrarian, and vexing persons were run out of their villages . . . and became a universally-loathed, needlessly verbose, wandering tribe known as "The Lawyers".

mr_bill

De Blasio weighs in...

One surviving operator has already been charged.

-mr. bill

raria

Good to see the Mayor saying the Toyota Uber driver should be held responsible.

A few outlets have pointed out that the police report says this particular drive was parked in a bus zone (strictly a non parking area) and then pulled into the bike lane without looking.

As the major notes, this set of a chain of events that caused her death. If he hadn't had pulled out, most likely the intoxicated garbage truck driver would have driven on.

Rollfast

To do that would be to say both worked together to commit the crime. The death is tragic enough without adding angst.

On top of some normal A&S crunchy granola goodness.

CliffordK

I actually have the habit of looking back as part of my movement left, although there may be times when there just isn't enough time. But, generally that quick head turn only takes a fraction of a second.

When I see a pedestrian or parked car in front of me, perhaps the first indication that I've actually seen the coming road hazard is looking in the other direction.

If the Uber driver was illegally parked, then that is a problem, as well as the movement from right to left across the bike lane without looking.

Unfortunately NYC has far too much traffic and too many people trying to share the same place. They also need better dedicated loading/unloading zones.

One thing that I've seen in Portland is bike lanes running to the right of both parking and bus loading zones, with an added door buffer. It still means that cyclists have to deal with pedestrians crossing the bike lane (hopefully looking), but it helps get them away from traffic. Even if one is somehow doored, then it is less likely one will be thrown into the traffic lane which is the most dangerous result of hitting a door.

I wonder if this works better in places without cross streets, as visibility at intersections is extremely important.

As far as blame the victims... young riders, no helmets, riding rental bikes in an unfamiliar city... perhaps the trifecta of risk. Likely the maneuver could have been done much better/safer.

If a major part of the death was hitting her head on the concrete, then a cheap $5 helmet might have saved her life. Should bike rental companies actively encourage and distribute helmets?

mr_bill

csport

This road has park on the east side, and the cross streets are every ten blocks. This is a very good place for a two-way protected bike lane to replace the current lanes on each side. A similar setup exists at Prostect Park West:
https://goo.gl/maps/cBVZfYvSyp82 I used it once when I was kicked out of the park around 2AM.
A proposal for this already exists: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/08/...ral-park-west/

CliffordK

Kicked out of the park?

I find it extremely aggravating that roads are open to cars 24 hours a day, but SAFE cycle paths are often closed at night. Especially when many accidents occur at night.

CliffordK

One thing I was thinking about this accident.

Australians drive on the left.

It took me a long time to get good at glancing over my left shoulder and keeping riding straight.

I find it much more difficult to look over my right shoulder (for example, merging from a center merge/turn lane).

So, even if the young woman was a very experienced rider, everything would have been backwards for her.