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I find it amazing what advertising can condition people to accept

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I find it amazing what advertising can condition people to accept

Old 08-20-20, 12:56 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
If someone looks back on the old thick heavy freewheels that you could take apart, soak, lube and run for thousands more miles, it is funny to see in the mechanics sub-forum threads that include, "Did you replace...?".

John
Yeah ... everything could be built to last forever. And yes, we are beset by disposable goods. However, the corollary that everything which is not overbuilt and eternal is therefore evil is unproven.

yes, we could all be riding bikes with steel drive trains---stainless, in fact. The cost would be greater and the weight would be enormous. In those areas manufacturers had to balance long life with low weight, and if you think people do not Want lighter bikes, you are again divorced from reality. And if you think people only want light bikes because of advertising ... well, maybe You cannot think critically, but don't judge everyone by your limitations.

I like lighter bikes because they are easier to ride ... I get more performance from less effort. My first derailleur bike was a Schwinn Suburban---46 pounds of indestructible. I have ridden everything from Walmart trash to decent CF and aluminum, with a few steel bikes thrown in. I know what I like ... and Some of my bikes are built to be light, because I LIke Lighter Bikes.

They are not intrinsically more fun to ride---my bikes range over a wide range of ready-for-the-road weights, and I like riding them all---but i prefer and ride most often (when riding purely for pleasure) on my lightest bikes. Nobody told me to do it. I figured it out for myself.

Yes, I know my alloy cassettes might only last 10,0000 miles (longer, because i wax) and i realize I will have to replace by chain rings every 30-40 K miles. it is an acceptable trade-off for me. I know my tires could be three times as tough and thick and heavy---but they would detract from ride quality. Shoot, my control cables--shift and brake---could be quarter-inch diameter stainless and last longer than i will live. I could use solid steel wheels and never break a spoke.

To me, bikes are not disposable ... and except for people buying children's bikes art Walmart, bikes pretty much aren't "disposable" to anyone. I have an '84 Raleigh and an '83 Cannondale---and guess what, I have had to do complete drivetrain replacements on both. Were they designed and built to be "disposable"? pretty obviously, no. but stuff wears out. I haven't bought a bike since 2015 and don't see a reason I would buy another (though if we had more readily available gravel roads, i would builda gravel bike---if had more time to ride.)

Look at the bikes posters here ride. A lot of new, high-tech CF and aluminum bikes with all the latest ... and a lot of custom or small-volume steel and titanium, a lot of older bikes ... bikes of every vintage and variety.

So ... this whole picture of stupid people driven by advertisers to buy cheap, disposable bikes ... doesn't hold up. People who buy mass-produced cheap bikes are getting bikes which suit their needs---they aren't risdinf 10K miles in a year, probably not in a lifetime, so they bikes they buy are just fine for their uses. people who ride more are also getting bikes which meet their needs and serve their purposes.

People fully understand that a bike with an alloy cassette and supple lightweight tires will need replacement parts. Those people also understand that we could be riding overbuilt dinosaur bikes which never wore out----shaft-driven single-speed, solid wheel and tire bikes weighing 50 pounds and lasting five hundred years. Almost nobody Wants those bikes. Most people, once they jump on a lightweight, nimble, responsive modern bike with excellent brakes and almost intuitive shifting, are sold---not by Advertising, but by Lived Experience.

Some of the stuff manufacturers make and advertisers advertise----is stuff we really do want.

Sorry.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:02 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
I hate to break it to you, but well built houses use 2x6s these days.
Mostly for additional insulation for energy purposes not to be better.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:06 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
One of the other things we do in the 21st century is recycle our electronics, because it really isn't a good idea to put them in the local landfill.
I was going to. I looked up who recycled, and drove it there. They wanted $50. You can imagine what I told them. I brought it back home and tore it apart and threw it in the trash.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:10 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Mostly for additional insulation for energy purposes not to be better.
Higher energy efficiency is generally considered "better."
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Old 08-20-20, 01:10 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Even repairing has become parts replacement and not rebuilding. A friend of mine used to say that auto mechanics no longer exist, they are just parts replacers. They will replace parts until they find the one causing the problem. Replacement parts are so much cheaper than rebuilding, so why not?
Uhmm, you still need to diagnose where the problem is to "rebuild" something. Another issue is most of the time the "replace until solved" is electronic controls rather than mechanical assemblies and the time and trouble to trace to a part that isn't rebuild able anyway, particularly given the amount of them now being used. A big part is offshore parts have become cheaper then skilled labor to diagnose and install them. For example I used to cut rotors, now a cheap off shore rotor is faster and cheaper than cutting the old one.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:14 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Higher energy efficiency is generally considered "better."
But, that does not necessarily make it structurally more sound/better.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:16 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
But there again that black and white TV could be cheaply fixed when it went wrong. When you new flat screen TV goes bad it goes to the land fill and you buy a new one.
And it cost about $200 at a time when the average car cost $2000 and the median family income was about $5600.

Now? A flat screen TV costs about $200 when the average car costs $30,000 and median family income is about $61,000.

So, there's that.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:19 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
I was going to. I looked up who recycled, and drove it there. They wanted $50. You can imagine what I told them. I brought it back home and tore it apart and threw it in the trash.
Not surprised by that.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:27 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Not surprised by that.
Complains about things ending up in the landfill, and it turns out he put them there.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:28 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Do you really thing the chinese frame building sweat shops pay their people $15 to $25 per hour. If they did most America name brand bikes would be built her in the US.
No, I dont think people building frames in a factory in China are making $15-25usd/hour.
I also dont think they are making the $.40/hr you claimed earlier.

I responded to your $.40/hr claim and offered up no guess as to what the pay range is. You then chose to assign $15-25thr to my argument.

Seriously, do you understand the basics of a discussion? Dont create an argument, assign it to someone, then defeat the argument and claim the other person is wrong. Thats a logical fallacy.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:31 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Yes Taiwan. I consider anything from Taiwan to be of better quality than from main land China.
I'm not surprised. Such a blanket belief is seriously flawed and is not based in reality.
China has the ability to produce crap products and incredible products. Same with Taiwan.
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Old 08-20-20, 01:49 PM
  #137  
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Game manufacturers have been re-issuing games; NES, N64...

It is no longer a matter of looking for NOS, companies have discovered that there is a human nature of reaching back to an earlier time in life to re-capture something.

It is unbelievably hilarious to see gamers getting the latest version of a game and at the same time buying Mario Cart to play with their kids.

In most of us, regardless of our devotion to the latest tech, there is a piece that holds on to some part of our past.

John

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Old 08-20-20, 01:56 PM
  #138  
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This guy went my ignore list long ago. Why good folks engage with this nonsense to the tune six pages and 136 responses, and counting, is beyond me. People (in this case an angry old man looking for attention) troll this place on a daily basis, and people jump right in and entertain them.

Never argue with a fool..they'll drag you down to their level and beat you up with experience.
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Old 08-20-20, 02:23 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Game manufacturers have been re-issuing games; NES, N64...
...
In most of us, regardless of our devotion to the latest tech, there is a piece that holds on to some part of our past.

John
This is not new and has a limit... of a lifetime. 50’s pop music, which was still on AM when I was a kid in the 80’s, is disappearing. There is nearly no market for pop from the Roaring 20’s.
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Old 08-20-20, 02:43 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Mostly for additional insulation for energy purposes not to be better.
well actually, it's the additional insulation that makes the house better. being less wasteful by using less energy to heat or cool the building is a quantifiable advantage.
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Old 08-20-20, 03:13 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
No, I dont think people building frames in a factory in China are making $15-25usd/hour.
I also dont think they are making the $.40/hr you claimed earlier.


I responded to your $.40/hr claim and offered up no guess as to what the pay range is. You then chose to assign $15-25thr to my argument.

Seriously, do you understand the basics of a discussion? Dont create an argument, assign it to someone, then defeat the argument and claim the other person is wrong. Thats a logical fallacy.
Regarding Chinese cf factory workers earning $.40/hour: Given that we're all carrying computers with internet access around in our pockets, I'm always amazed that some people just make things up rather than taking, oh, two minutes to check the actual facts. I mean, blimey, you don't even have to ride your bike on down to the library these days.

You are describing the Straw Man fallacy, I believe. Very common.

Honestly, this whole thread is a hoot.
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Old 08-20-20, 03:32 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Regarding Chinese cf factory workers earning $.40/hour: Given that we're all carrying computers with internet access around in our pockets, I'm always amazed that some people just make things up rather than taking, oh, two minutes to check the actual facts. I mean, blimey, you don't even have to ride your bike on down to the library these days.

You are describing the Straw Man fallacy, I believe. Very common.

Honestly, this whole thread is a hoot.
Oh I love threads started by 'bent. They are pure gold. Its my version of a trashy checkout line magazine or superficial reality show where everyone is terrible to one another. I find all that off putting, but love me some disaster 'bent threads!

As for logical fallacies, they are little devils. Even when aware of them, its super easy to fall into using them. Straw Man, Slippery Slope, and Ad Hom Attack are really common on the 2 forums I frequent. Well, those as well as Appeal to Authority and Bandwagon.
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Old 08-20-20, 03:44 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Oh I love threads started by 'bent. They are pure gold. Its my version of a trashy checkout line magazine or superficial reality show where everyone is terrible to one another. I find all that off putting, but love me some disaster 'bent threads!

As for logical fallacies, they are little devils. Even when aware of them, its super easy to fall into using them. Straw Man, Slippery Slope, and Ad Hom Attack are really common on the 2 forums I frequent. Well, those as well as Appeal to Authority and Bandwagon.
I have a handy little way to determine whether someone is using an Ad Hominem fallacy:

Ad Hominem: "Because you're stupid, your argument is bad"

NOT Ad Hominem: "Because your argument is bad, you're stupid."
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Old 08-20-20, 03:54 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by fishboat View Post
This guy went my ignore list long ago. Why good folks engage with this nonsense to the tune six pages and 136 responses, and counting, is beyond me. People (in this case an angry old man looking for attention) troll this place on a daily basis, and people jump right in and entertain them.

Never argue with a fool..they'll drag you down to their level and beat you up with experience.
But see that is where you are dead wrong. Im 81 in fantastic health, have a fantastic family, and have lived the American dream. I am very happy in retirement, and ride about 25 miles every other day. What is not to be happy about.

OTOH it is people like you that attack people you dont know just because you dont agree with them.
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Old 08-20-20, 04:20 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
But see that is where you are dead wrong. Im 81 in fantastic health, have a fantastic family, and have lived the American dream. I am very happy in retirement, and ride about 25 miles every other day. What is not to be happy about..
You were a year older 3 days ago, so I guess you're getting younger.

Originally Posted by rydabent
Im 82, and ride about 25 miles every other day. I could pass for 65, and feel like it too. And think even younger.

That last sentence is pretty humorous, BTW.
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Old 08-20-20, 04:26 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
This is not new and has a limit... of a lifetime. 50’s pop music, which was still on AM when I was a kid in the 80’s, is disappearing. There is nearly no market for pop from the Roaring 20’s.
Very well put. Although there may be a few things that transcend. It would be interesting to see the collectibility of an original ‘62 Strat on its 100th anniversary.

John
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Old 08-20-20, 07:09 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Well my trike has disc brakes.
Thank you for proving my point. Only touting your experience with disc brakes (which many folks have been running for a couple of decades) as the example of your experience with modern cycling innovations is telling.
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Old 08-20-20, 07:21 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
have lived the American dream..
Many folks don't see spending years as a copier repairman and ending up being trapped in Nebraska as the American dream.

Just like many folks don't pine for the days of brifters and six speed cassettes.

It's broader experiences and different goals that you seem to not be able to understand here.
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Old 08-20-20, 07:23 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
No not at all. But some of us can see thru it and make wise decisions on our own.

My favorite BTW was the fool telling us on TV that some brand of instant coffee tasted just as good as fresh perked.
For some things yes but studies have shown that people will do what they are "marketed" to do, whether they like it or not.
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Old 08-20-20, 07:28 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by HD3andMe View Post
Many folks don't see spending years as a copier repairman and ending up being trapped in Nebraska as the American dream.

Just like many folks don't pine for the days of brifters and six speed cassettes.

It's broader experiences and different goals that you seem to not be able to understand here.
I lived in NE. It's pretty nice, actually. But you gotta be okay with some snow.
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