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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

Old 09-21-20, 03:16 PM
  #101  
Happy Feet
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[QUOTE=njkayaker;21706111]
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post

No, you like to argue about typos.
Wow. It's like someone asked for the definition of an ironic statement.
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Old 09-21-20, 03:17 PM
  #102  
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One thing I am curious about is the effect of the really long chain stays on his bikes and how they ride. My bikes have stays around 43-44 cm.

Otto
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Old 09-21-20, 03:19 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Wow. It's like someone asked for the definition of an ironic statement.
You liking to argue "ideas" has to be ironic.

"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles.
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Old 09-21-20, 03:20 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
One thing I am curious about is the effect of the really long chain stays on his bikes and how they ride. My bikes have stays around 43-44 cm.

Otto
Kind of like touring bikes. It tends to make the bike go straighter.
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Old 09-21-20, 03:28 PM
  #105  
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I've never heard of Grant Petersen before this thread, even though I've heard of Rivendell bikes. Is he related to Jordan Petersen? If so, that would explain the "turn trollposting into a career" life-path. And both of them say things that sound almost reasonable at first but then dissolve like cotton candy in the hands of a racoon when scrutinized.
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Old 09-21-20, 04:02 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post

"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles.
This is true.. and yet technolgy and the products that are most beneficial for racing are constantly pushed by the industry. Some people succumb to upgradeitis and buy into that paradigm while others read GP and, while finding some of his points quirky, basically feel his approach more accurately describes the way they cycle.

For example. I find the way common cycling is shown in Scandinavian countries, or in Japan, to be different from how it is portrayed in N.A. Far more utilitarian. There, I imagine many of the things GP says would be viewed as simple common sense. Baskets on bikes. Wear normal clothes and shoes. Easy to maintain components, fenders...

In N.A. that message clashes more directly with the image of cycling portrayed by industry (and the equipment they promote) as an elitist athletic expression - even though most end users are not using bicycles as elite athletes.

The marketing is more aspirational than reflective. "This is who you could be".. not "this is who you are".

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Old 09-21-20, 04:10 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
I've never heard of Grant Petersen before this thread, even though I've heard of Rivendell bikes. Is he related to Jordan Petersen? If so, that would explain the "turn trollposting into a career" life-path. And both of them say things that sound almost reasonable at first but then dissolve like cotton candy in the hands of a racoon when scrutinized.
Grant is American, Jordan is Canadian so I would say no. Guilt by erroneous association doesn't apply.

Curious how, if you had never heard of him before this thread, you know Grant says things that sound almost reasonable at first but dissolves like cotton candy when scrutinized?

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Old 09-21-20, 05:29 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Curious how, if you had never heard of him before this thread, you know Grant says things that sound almost reasonable at first but dissolves like cotton candy when scrutinized?
Because I have good reading comprehension. Did you read nothing in this thread before posting? People were quoting Grant Petersen left and right. And I have access to a search engine. Several people in this very thread said they downloaded a copy Just Ride so they could inform themselves for this very discussion.

How is it so alien to you that someone could open this thread with no knowledge of Grant Petersen, read the content in the thread, and then recognize the guy's asinine takes on cycling for what they are?
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Old 09-21-20, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
Because I have good reading comprehension. Did you read nothing in this thread before posting? People were quoting Grant Petersen left and right. And I have access to a search engine. Several people in this very thread said they downloaded a copy Just Ride so they could inform themselves for this very discussion.

How is it so alien to you that someone could open this thread with no knowledge of Grant Petersen, read the content in the thread, and then recognize the guy's asinine takes on cycling for what they are?
Well.. I have read some since I've been participating in the thread since post 3. Did you read nothing in this thread before posting? See how that works.

It's not alien but more unbelievable partly because, for all your good reading comprehension and internet prowess you couldn't figure out the two Peterson's were unrelated, even though a quick 30 google search confirmed that for me. And because it's so easy for some anonymous poster on a forum to denigrate someone else who has basically spent his whole adult life in the bicycle industry that I don't place much value in that three day old opinion (thread started Sept 18).

At the same time, while I don't agree with everything GP says, I generally respect his lifelong commitment to the game and what I feel is a neccessary alternative viewpoint..

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Old 09-21-20, 06:09 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
Because I have good reading comprehension. Did you read nothing in this thread before posting? People were quoting Grant Petersen left and right. And I have access to a search engine. Several people in this very thread said they downloaded a copy Just Ride so they could inform themselves for this very discussion.

How is it so alien to you that someone could open this thread with no knowledge of Grant Petersen, read the content in the thread, and then recognize the guy's asinine takes on cycling for what they are?
Sure it might sound asinine, but have you actually tried shellacked cloth tape with a twine finish? And what cyclist wouldn't want a forged steel hatchet in their canvas and leather saddle bag along with a 35mm black and white film camera?
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Old 09-21-20, 06:18 PM
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a Rivendell works for a Rivendell look > think J Press & a job at a DC think tank > in ameriKa it's all about cachet ......... and there nothing wrong with a little cachet in your bike life
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Old 09-21-20, 06:23 PM
  #112  
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Look closely at the rear rack...




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Old 09-21-20, 06:40 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Sure it might sound asinine, but have you actually tried shellacked cloth tape with a twine finish? And what cyclist wouldn't want a forged steel hatchet in their canvas and leather saddle bag along with a 35mm black and white film camera?
I spent nearly 4 months straight touring with a 35mm and a Mamiya 645 with metered view finder, power grip and three lenses. Both B&W film.
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Old 09-21-20, 10:36 PM
  #114  
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It's funny .... I have a long history of thinking for myself and doing what works, and if it doesn't work, trying something else.

I went car-free for decades, and spent a lot of that time on bikes I built from scrap. I wore what worked, I rode what worked, because that was the difference between not having a job or being employed, eating or not eating, sleeping at home or on the side of the road somewhere.

All these histrionics about "the proper way to bike" are beyond ludicrous to me.

I wear kit usually because it wicks sweat, provides pockets I can access while riding, the padding helps with saddle sores, and supportive shorts keep my dangling modifiers out of harms way. it was a very painful situation regarding a seat, a thigh, a gland, and a huge downstroke to launch from an intersection which sold me on shorts which control the location fo certain parts. Once it made the switch, I appreciated padded shorts---now almost exclusively bibs---because they are simply more comfortable in every situation. And after more than 50 years of testing, .... I am not interested if other people have reached other conclusions. Your opinions do not invalidate my findings, nor mine your. Different strokes.

Too many gears leads people to shift too often? If shifting is too easy people will shift too often? My reply is, don't get drunk and post.

As for doing one's own work .... again it is a matter of options. As long as you can ride when you want, your system works .... and whether you do your own work or not, there will be days when your bike is just broken. I always have more than one.

Mr. Peterson seems to have made a religion of his way of riding, and fine for him and his followers. Other folks have made a religion of blaming "marketing" and "advertising" for ruining cycling, and see every other cyclist as a brainless sheep buying whatever s/he is told. obviously also a nonsensical position.

"Grant Peterson" and "Rivendell" are both brands. people who buy into that propaganda are no different than people who by into "bike industry" propaganda. it is always amusing to see people claim to be more free than some other people because they follow the "right" rules.

To me, not being able to make ones own choices on basic issues .... well, whatever. If people like some of what Mr. Peterson says, so what? if they don't so what?

As far as it goes, all life is subjective. Each of us experiences his or her, and only his or her, experiences. Everything is filtered through the lenses of our conscious and subconscious minds. People looking hard for some "objective" validation of their choices, need to take responsibility. If you need external validation beyond "This works for me" you lack courage and common sense. Likewise, people who denigrate others for having a different subjective experience .... well, yeah, do the math.

This website is a hoot. I really enjoy coming here and being pompous and self-satisfied .... and I get a lot of indirect validation for that. I guess there is a "BF philosophy" and I am just a BF sheep.

I have never toured with a hatchet because for almost all camping situations a good camp knife can do all the jobs needed. Takes longer, but saves several pounds. And frankly, I don't think campers should be lopping off limbs and felling saplings .... I have always found it possible to collect fallen timber for firewood and various campsite construction projects.
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Old 09-22-20, 12:02 AM
  #115  
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I think one thing that would help is if people would not respond to what someone said about what someone else said as if it's what someone else actually said. People are free to agree or disagree with what GP writes (I do on occasion) but to be fair (if that is important) one should read from the source and provide the appropriate context.

For example. GP promotes an idea called s24o - a sub twenty four hour trip, as a convenient way to get on your bike for a simple campout instead of a more complicated adventure. He just wants people to go for a ride without all the hassle. Get on your bike, ride a bit, camp with your friends and then ride back. In that context, taking a hatchet, if you plan to have a fire, is not as big a deal as with perhaps, a cross country tour. The idea is to have fun, the distance not too great and the available cargo capacity sufficient. Makes more sense, if you are into that sort of thing, when taken in proper context.

Having just returned from two trips to four National Parks in Canada I can say it is in fact illegal to collect twigs and branches from the ground. Firewood is provided in campsites but that is in the form of bucked Lodge Pole Pine in between 4-8" diameter logs. A hatchet might help, though I personally have an SK5 cold steel chopper that I baton to cut wood. Truth be told though, when on a dedicated bike tour I rarely care to have a fire and only take my Mora fishing/utility knife.

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Old 09-22-20, 01:33 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
One thing I am curious about is the effect of the really long chain stays on his bikes and how they ride. My bikes have stays around 43-44 cm.

Otto
HTH.
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Old 09-22-20, 04:34 AM
  #117  
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ACA has also been promoting sub-24s for years. I could see a hatchet being useful to split wood. (Iíve never been to a private or public campground where cutting live wood is legal.) Just finished a tour on Sunday. Nine days with lots of nasty hills. Passed on fires a couple of nights because the available wood was thick and dead and downed kindling was wet from earlier rain.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:22 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Korina View Post
Thanks for sharing that video! Although the reviewer describes himself as a "Riv-fan", the review is very honest and balanced. He points out what he perceives to be both good and bad. Best part is he does it with kindness. We could use more of that.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:33 AM
  #119  
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Rivendell bikes are not for everyone. Having read about Riv's for years, I was intrigued but it wasn't until I went to Denmark and Japan where cycling was something completely different that made me embrace that style of cycling. As I said in my post back on page one, I can enjoy any kind of cycling. Though, if I could only have one bike it would be a Rivendell. Yesterday I did 60 km on my Trek and today I will be doing a 40 km on my Rivendell with my wife. Each ride is enjoyable in its own right.



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Old 09-22-20, 06:34 AM
  #120  
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Someone in an earlier thread mentioned "upgrade-itis" My experience with it was when I was spending some time chatting with a local bike shop owner (now retired) at his store. He was a real gentleman and had been in the bike business his entire life. His father was a racer, and very well-known in the bike community.

Anyway, we had been looking at his brother's Frejus track bike, a bike that the shop had originally sold decades before and had somehow made its way back to the store. I was salivating over it. It was in pristine condition and my size. Unfortunately, the brother didn't want to part with it.
So as we were chewing the fat, a man came into the store and my friend went to help him. The customer was asked what he needed today and he replied, and I'm paraphrasing here, "I bought my bike here last year but the guys I ride with just got some new ones and they're probably 1/2 lb. lighter than mine and I want to upgrade." It blew me away. I walked back to the Frejus to admire the workmanship, the beautiful lugwork and the interesting head badge.

After the guy left I asked my friend whether that was a common thing, someone desperate to lighten their bike like that. He said it was more common than I'd believe. I asked if they were all racers and he said, no, probably none of them are.

I tell the story not to make fun of such people. Hey, if you have the desire and the money, go for it. But don't make fun of me in the back room drooling over the Frejus, OK?
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Old 09-22-20, 06:36 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by blakcloud View Post
Rivendell bikes are not for everyone. Having read about Riv's for years, I was intrigued but it wasn't until I went to Denmark and Japan where cycling was something completely different that made me embrace that style of cycling. As I said in my post back on page one, I can enjoy any kind of cycling. Though, if I could only have one bike it would be a Rivendell. Yesterday I did 60 km on my Trek and today I will be doing a 40 km on my Rivendell with my wife. Each ride is enjoyable in its own right.



Very cool. That is a beautiful ride! The Betty is cool too but would look better with a cream head tube.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:37 AM
  #122  
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"Any bike that makes you want to ride it is a good bike."

Me
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Old 09-22-20, 06:38 AM
  #123  
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Done a bit of touring and camping, though not as much as some of the folks here by any means .... but I have never needed a hatchet on a bike tour. I used to own a Marine Corps K-Bar as a general utility knife, and now carry a much lighter blade---but either can be batonned into a log end to split it. I'd rather use a knife than a wedge because the wedge could fly off in a random direction and cause harm .... of course, when batonning the knife one could also baton one's hand or wrist. Nothing is safe or certain.

I don't like to carry excess weight while touring ... but when touring fully loaded, "excess" weight has a very different definition. The thing I only need once in three tours but which keeps me from being stranded in the wilderness just once is worth bringing, while a thing I can use occasionally to do a job I could do as well with another tool which might have multiple uses ..... I might have 80 pounds of food, water, and gear, but another five pounds of axe still makes a difference at the bottom of a tall hill at the end of a long day.

I have never had a problem with firewood---at most national parks it is supplied or available, and no one has every enforced a "no gathering" rule if there ever was one at any place I camped (though I could definitely see the point in a heavily traveled area.)

The big issue with "sub-24" riding is that in most places I have lived it is hard to take a day ride to a good overnight camping place which is worth the effort. Maybe things are different in Northern California or Washington state, but anyone living in an urban or surrounding suburban-sprawl miasma probably has a similar take--towns extend from one city limit to the next, and all camping is guerrilla camping, with not a lot of places where a good day trip would deposit one at a pleasant camp site in time to set up camp and cook to enjoy the evening.

But whatever. If people cannot figure out how to ride a bike enjoyably, that is fine. Personally I find that half an hour's ride can get me to some more rural roads where the traffic is light and the scenery a little more pleasant, but camping would be trespassing, so a long afternoon's ride is sufficient, and I arrive home where I can shower and barbecue in the back yard if I have the urge to cook over a fire.

Taking a hatchet on such rides would only be sensible if I planned to stop and do a little serial-killing and mutilation along the way. And even then, a lighter blade would suffice.
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Old 09-22-20, 07:10 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post

The big issue with "sub-24" riding is that in most places I have lived it is hard to take a day ride to a good overnight camping place which is worth the effort. Maybe things are different in Northern California or Washington state, but anyone living in an urban or surrounding suburban-sprawl miasma probably has a similar take--towns extend from one city limit to the next, and all camping is guerrilla camping, with not a lot of places where a good day trip would deposit one at a pleasant camp site in time to set up camp and cook to enjoy the evening.
That's my issue as well. The closest place from my door without using other means of transport is about 48 miles. The first 25 are on trail. The next 23 are either up or down, with some steep climbs. And there are no services near the state park, so I either have to bring all my food from start of stop and shop just before the real hills start. I can use train services in to NJ, but I still end up having to do in the 50s to get to a place I like. In the end, it's going to be more than 24 hrs. round trip.

Out west you usually have more opportunities, especially if you live near National Forests. I once joked to someone that if I lived in Missoula, MT, where I have started and ended several tours, I would never be home on the weekends during cycling season because there are some really cool places on National Forest land that you can easily ride to in a relatively short time.
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Old 09-22-20, 07:12 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
Because I have good reading comprehension. Did you read nothing in this thread before posting? People were quoting Grant Petersen left and right. And I have access to a search engine. Several people in this very thread said they downloaded a copy Just Ride so they could inform themselves for this very discussion.

How is it so alien to you that someone could open this thread with no knowledge of Grant Petersen, read the content in the thread, and then recognize the guy's asinine takes on cycling for what they are?

Dear Mr. Dunning-Kruger,

Many of that guy's "asinine takes" actually foresaw the shifts in the bike industry and marketing away from racing and more towards a practical adaptable bike. "Just Ride" was published in 2012. Yes, there's still marketing of racing bikes, there should be, some of us like riding them for whatever purposes, but there's also now whole categories of wide-tire drop bar bikes that just didn't exist when he was writing, many of them essentially copying or building on some of the things Riv was doing at the time.

As to his take on clipless pedals and kit, I ride pretty much as he describes, but at longer distances and higher speeds. I don't agree with him that that stuff is a scam because other people are probably pretty good judges of whether they're getting some benefit from it. But I really do appreciate having his stuff out there as a counter to all of the people who post on BF to claim that you're somehow doing it wrong or are not serious if you find you don't want or need that stuff. We recently had a thread on platforms vs. clipless, and I was just astounded by how many people were making ridiculous claims about all the things you supposedly can't do on platforms that I do every damn day, not to mention the absurd safety concerns they were raising.
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