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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

Old 09-22-20, 03:22 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Not the same thing, but I used to do plenty of long rides on my FX 3 (125-168 miles in a day). I don't find the aero aspect of it makes much difference even at 20 mph, it's more noticeable in limiting the top speeds than it is in wearing me out at normal cruising speeds. I also think it makes up for any fatigue factor in fighting aero forces by being a posture that's slightly easier to maintain and, for me, being a better set up to climb hills. My real reasons for switching to drop bars is because it's a little bit easier on the hands and I really enjoy squeezing out that extra 1-2 mph at the top end of the range on the flats.

Aero generally isn't really that effective against headwinds for the simple reason that they usually are at least slightly perpendicular to the direction your heading--i.e., also a bit of a crosswind. We're streamlined for the air hitting us directly in the face, not the one hitting you in the cheek..
I'm a dedicated flat-earth bar cyclist (580mm bars/minimal sweep/bar ends), but your post makes perfect sense. I don't ride the distances or speeds you do, but I do like climbing, and do a lot of it.

FWIW, Cycling+ did a comparo some years back (Feb/2014) between 'endurance' and 'flat-bar' road bikes over a 50 mile 'sportive' course -- one that included the Boxhill climb from the London Olympics. Their results were, they found, quite interesting, and confirmed part of your post above: "a better set up to climb hills".
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Old 09-22-20, 03:29 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
I never accused anyone of treason. Please stop telling lies about me.
You have claimed elsewhere in this thread that you have excellent "reading comprehension". If that is true, then the comment of yours in question, to which @livedarklions refers, can only be the result of a deliberate attempt to be 'funny' at the expense of a Canadian WWII vet who suffered in a German p.o.w. camp, or an ignorance of basic historical/geographical fact.

The latter is deplorable but excusable, and not unexpected; the former is both deplorable and inexcusable.
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Old 09-22-20, 03:35 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
You have claimed elsewhere in this thread that you have excellent "reading comprehension". If that is true, then the comment of yours in question, to which @livedarklions refers, can only be the result of a deliberate attempt to be 'funny' at the expense of a Canadian WWII vet who suffered in a German p.o.w. camp, or an ignorance of basic historical/geographical fact.

The latter is deplorable but excusable, and not unexpected; the former is both deplorable and inexcusable.
No, you are wrong. In my earlier post, I asked someone else to clarify whether they meant a person who had been "in a POW camp" was a prisoner or a guard. I never said anything that made fun of the person who was in the camp. Pointing out ambiguity in someone's language is not the same as making fun of someone. Calm down.
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Old 09-22-20, 03:58 PM
  #179  
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I took a look at some of GP's bikes on his blag/blog/blug or whatever its called. They look nice in a superfluous, hipster accessory kind of a way. I've ridden several bike with "mustache" bars and they are truly awful for just about any kind of riding. The high rise stems make a lot of sense ergonomically, but are kind of embarrassing esthetically. The giraffe neck look is a major distraction, an eyesore on bikes that are otherwise pretty nice looking retro bikes.
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Old 09-22-20, 04:33 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Aero generally isn't really that effective against headwinds for the simple reason that they usually are at least slightly perpendicular to the direction your heading--i.e., also a bit of a crosswind. We're streamlined for the air hitting us directly in the face, not the one hitting you in the cheek..
This is actually false. Ground-level air speed tends to be fairly low, to where the speed of a bike+rider causes the wind to nearly always be frontal-ish relative to the bicycle. And at typical moderate crosswind angles, the advantage of an aero posture is sometimes actually bigger than for wind striking dead-on. (This is true of a lot of aero equipment, as well. A lot of people dislike deep-section wheels in strong crossinds due to the side forces, but they actually tend to see a smaller drag reduction over shallow wheels when the wind is hitting head on.)

For a true 90-degree wind angle, yeah, leaning down will do little to nothing to reduce wind side force. But that's a very uncommon phenomenon.
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Old 09-22-20, 04:38 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
...The guy had been in the RCAF and spent two years in a Nazi POW camp during WWII...
Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
...Was he a prisoner or a guard at that camp? Did he sprechen good Deutsch?
Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
No, you are wrong. In my earlier post, I asked someone else to clarify whether they meant a person who had been "in a POW camp" was a prisoner or a guard. I never said anything that made fun of the person who was in the camp. Pointing out ambiguity in someone's language is not the same as making fun of someone. Calm down.
For those with less than excellent reading comprehension:

As already pointed out, RCAF is short for Royal Canadian Air Force. As a POW in a NAZI WWII camp, asking if he was a prisoner or a guard suggests he may have committed treason during wartime (Serving as a guard for the enemy). But sure, asking if he sprechen good Deutsch was an honest question...

The innocent act isn't working. Do yourself a favour and just back away from the keyboard.
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Old 09-22-20, 04:46 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
I crossed the country with a 76 year old fellow who turned 77 during the trip. He had a bad back and inverted his drop bars so he was practically sitting straight up. When the trip ended he started riding home to the Philadelphia ‘burbs until his wife made him pack it in.

The guy had been in the RCAF and spent two years in a Nazi POW camp during WWII, so maybe that made him extra tough. Or maybe it’s not as bad as you might imagine. My touring position is not an aggressive one, and I travel with relatively large front bags. Just finished a 440 mile tour on Sunday that featured several days of moderate to strong headwinds and a good amount of nasty hills.
Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
It sounds like that old timer would have had a better trip if he could have gotten into a better position on his bike; he probably could have put up a better fight against the wind. Was he a prisoner or a guard at that camp? Did he sprechen good Deutsch?
So, the poster with such great "reading comprehension," who learned all that there is to learn about Grant Peterson in two days, doesn't know what the RCAF is? Does your computer not have this feature called "google"?

Honestly. One of my earlier responses was removed by a mod for being "insulting." But this is still up?
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Old 09-22-20, 04:50 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
No, you are wrong. In my earlier post, I asked someone else to clarify whether they meant a person who had been "in a POW camp" was a prisoner or a guard. I never said anything that made fun of the person who was in the camp. Pointing out ambiguity in someone's language is not the same as making fun of someone. Calm down.
qed.

That is all.
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Old 09-22-20, 04:59 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
For those with less than excellent reading comprehension:

As already pointed out, RCAF is short for Royal Canadian Air Force. As a POW in a NAZI WWII camp, asking if he was a prisoner or a guard suggests he may have committed treason during wartime (Serving as a guard for the enemy). But sure, asking if he sprechen good Deutsch was an honest question...

The innocent act isn't working. Do yourself a favour and just back away from the keyboard.
Thanks for proving my point for me. Indyfabz's choice of verbiage and syntax created ambiguity in the original statement, because Indyfabz did not write "as a POW in a Nazi camp." What they did write was "in a Nazi POW camp." Simply asking if someone was a guard or a prisoner in a POW camp is not the same as actually accusing someone of treason.

If someone asks you how fast you were driving, do you immediately get indignant because you think they are accusing you of being a criminal? Because it sounds like that's the type of person you are. Be reasonable, literally no one here accused anyone of treason. There is no need for all your grandstanding. Calm down.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:05 PM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
Thanks for proving my point for me. Indyfabz's choice of verbiage and syntax created ambiguity in the original statement, because Indyfabz did not write "as a POW in a Nazi camp." What they did write was "in a Nazi POW camp." Simply asking if someone was a guard or a prisoner in a POW camp is not the same as actually accusing someone of treason.

If someone asks you how fast you were driving, do you immediately get indignant because you think they are accusing you of being a criminal? Because it sounds like that's the type of person you are. Be reasonable, literally no one here accused anyone of treason. There is no need for all your grandstanding. Calm down.
Sure.. he had to spell out that a member of the RCAF in a nazi pow camp was a prisoner, not a guard. Sure... because your reading comprehension is that good.

I'm laughing, but in a schadenfreude sort of way

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-22-20 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:08 PM
  #186  
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Dunning-Kruger does not recognize self as Dunning-Kruger. Self evident.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:14 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Sure.. he had to spell out that a member of the RCAF in a nazi pow camp was a prisoner, not a guard.
No, not really. As I said, there was ambiguity in the statement, so I asked for clarity. Before actually making an accusation, I asked for more information. Is this really a foreign concept to you? Are you in the habit of just wildly jumping to conclusions when very little information has been shared? That's a terrible way to go through life.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:24 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by djcookie View Post
I took a look at some of GP's bikes on his blag/blog/blug or whatever its called. They look nice in a superfluous, hipster accessory kind of a way. The high rise stems make a lot of sense ergonomically, but are kind of embarrassing esthetically. The giraffe neck look is a major distraction, an eyesore on bikes that are otherwise pretty nice looking retro bikes.
So eight pages of bickering, backbiting, and all manner of character assassination because the OP doesn’t like the looks of a tall stem?? You fashionistas are no different than the hipsters you deride.

Last edited by Rolla; 09-22-20 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:34 PM
  #189  
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This one's got legs. Twelve pages? Twenty?
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Old 09-22-20, 05:45 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
If a bike is meant to be ridden far and it's well designed, then its design will allow the rider to minimize frontal area while making use of a wide range of smartly spaced gears. A bike that puts the ride in the "sit up and beg" position with a narrow cassette and one chainring does none of those things, because it isn't designed to be ridden over long distances (even if the ad copy says it is). Just because you can take your family of four on a road trip in a 2-door pickup truck doesn't mean it's designed for that task.
So good of you to tell us what bicycles mean ... I have been riding for more than 50 years, and never once knew what a bicycle meant.

By the way, I have also toured for thousands of miles. And the way you do it might not be the way i did it. Nor the next guy, nor the lady next to him, or the same as Any of those other however many scores of thousands of people who have done the same thing.

If you cannot make the leap from "what I think is best for me" to "many people have many different methods and many different priorities," then the fault lies in your own narrow judgment and lack of imagination.

I recall a day near the Colorado border of Kanas (Kansas is Not flat) where the wind was so strong it nearly stopped us. "Minimizing frontal area" was a sorry joke. I have also seen video of a race in Spain where riders literally could not ride up a hill into a 60-knot wind. When they fell over, their bikes took off like kites. They were all in kit, and were as aero as possible ... made Zero difference.

Glad you have found your way.

Just to point out---when you are telling everyone your "Best Way," and insisting that everyone with any sense has to do what you do , the way you do it, or else they must be mentally deficient or just ignorant ... we call that "Pulling a Grant Peterson."
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Old 09-22-20, 05:51 PM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
This Petersen-designed Bridgestone MB-1 came out in 1987. He really was ahead of his time.

I had a 1988 MB-4 and it was and remains one of the best bikes I have ever owned. heavy by today's standards, but a tank that hrode like a sports car. I put huge mileage on that bike and rode everything from trails to traffic to touring and man ... I miss that bike.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:06 PM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
So good of you to tell us what bicycles mean ... I have been riding for more than 50 years, and never once knew what a bicycle meant.

By the way, I have also toured for thousands of miles. And the way you do it might not be the way i did it. Nor the next guy, nor the lady next to him, or the same as Any of those other however many scores of thousands of people who have done the same thing.

If you cannot make the leap from "what I think is best for me" to "many people have many different methods and many different priorities," then the fault lies in your own narrow judgment and lack of imagination.

I recall a day near the Colorado border of Kanas (Kansas is Not flat) where the wind was so strong it nearly stopped us. "Minimizing frontal area" was a sorry joke. I have also seen video of a race in Spain where riders literally could not ride up a hill into a 60-knot wind. When they fell over, their bikes took off like kites. They were all in kit, and were as aero as possible ... made Zero difference.

Glad you have found your way.

Just to point out---when you are telling everyone your "Best Way," and insisting that everyone with any sense has to do what you do , the way you do it, or else they must be mentally deficient or just ignorant ... we call that "Pulling a Grant Peterson."
I'm not telling anyone the "best way" to do anything here. Stop making things up to be upset about. All I did was point out the deficiencies in the design of an upright bike when it comes to long rides. The biggest deficiency is that the upright bike will put the rider in a horrible position for air resistance. That you have taken long rides on ill-equipped bikes doesn't really bother me at all, but it also doesn't mean that you're any better of a cyclist for having done it. Maybe dial back that virtue signaling. It's also reeking of confirmation bias to use an example involving gale force winds, which is obviously not the conditions anyone here is talking about.

In normal, average wind conditions, a bicycle that puts the rider in an upright position like the Boot Wilson or Atlantis from Rivendell Bikes would be a terrible choice for a long ride because the rider will fatigue faster and move slower for their efforts due to air resistance. A better choice would be the Roadeo or Homer Hilsen, equipped with bars slightly lower than the saddle to accommodate a more aerodynamic posture. This is no different than advising someone to use a mountain bike if they are going off-road or top use a road bike for riding on the road. Sure, you can take a road bike off-road, but you'll be more comfortable and have a better experience using the bike that's designed for the task.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:08 PM
  #193  
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What if Grant Peterson is neither a visionary nor a snake oil salesman, but just some guy who likes a certain kind of bike and a certain kind of riding, and found a way to make a living selling that kind of bike to people who want to do that kind of riding?

Nah. That can't be it. Too simple.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:14 PM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
What if Grant Peterson is neither a visionary nor a snake oil salesman, but just some guy who likes a certain kind of bike and a certain kind of riding, and found a way to make a living selling that kind of bike to people who want to do that kind of riding?

Nah. That can't be it. Too simple.
Way to reasonable.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:18 PM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
This one's got legs. Twelve pages? Twenty?
Nope, just 8
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