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Any boxing fans out there?

Old 05-22-20, 12:50 PM
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arguello fought bubba in 82? in beaumont
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Old 05-22-20, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
james pipps ? bubba busceme ? johnny tapia ? >>> i used to hang with guys that moved in these circles
https://youtu.be/vMfjyD8__Yo
Yup, I remember Bubba Busceme. He was one of the best amateurs ever produced by the US. He turned pro just as I was getting into amateur boxing in Texas. I'm not sure he ever reached his potential as a pro. He retained too much of that classic upright stance that works well in the amateurs but not so well for most pros. But even after his comeback from a four-year layoff, he gave Arguello some problems for a few rounds. But as ringside commenters noted, Bubba moved the wrong way -- into Arguello's right hands -- not taking advantage of his southpaw stance.
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Old 05-22-20, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yup, I remember Bubba Busceme. He was one of the best amateurs ever produced by the US. He turned pro just as I was getting into amateur boxing in Texas. I'm not sure he ever reached his potential as a pro. He retained too much of that classic upright stance that works well in the amateurs but not so well for most pros. But even after his comeback from a four-year layoff, he gave Arguello some problems for a few rounds. But as ringside commenters noted, Bubba moved the wrong way -- into Arguello's right hands -- not taking advantage of his southpaw stance.
>>> i think bubba would have made it big & stayed in boxing if he could have separated from his dad who dominated his training > my take was that his dad pushed him to much > im basing this on my being very good friends with bubbas cousins in beaumont ... btw when he fought his wife used to sing the national anthem
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Old 05-22-20, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
>>> i think bubba would have made it big & stayed in boxing if he could have separated from his dad who dominated his training > my take was that his dad pushed him to much > im basing this on my being very good friends with bubbas cousins in beaumont ... btw when he fought his wife used to sing the national anthem
Yup, that's a common challenge with many boxers from the south and west who began with their dads as coaches in the amateurs, but couldn't cut the ties when going pro.

I knew a few pretty good amateurs who learned the basics from their dads but eventually were held back by the lack of experience and unique psychological dynamics between father and son.

Sometimes it works. Sean O'Grady had a similar background and was more successful than most with that close family connection, although some commenters thought he would have done better with another coach. Ditto Shane Mosley, Floyd Mayweather Jr and others.

My cousin got me into boxing but was never my coach. I had several coaches over the years and generally did best with the drill instructor disciplinarian types, the no-nonsense guys who'd bark between rounds, like Angelo Dundee barking "You're blowing it, kid" to Sugar Ray Leonard against Hearns. I wouldn't have done well with a close family member as a coach.

On the other hand, Bubba seemed to enjoy having a life totally apart from boxing. I think he left it all behind, moved to Belize to teach and hang out on the beach and enjoy life. That ain't bad at all. Some former boxers never achieve that level of personal balance.
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Old 05-22-20, 09:37 PM
  #580  
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When I was in college (Chico State University in Northern California) in the mid '80s, I was throwing back beers one night at a local bar with a buddy who was also a boxing fan. He went up to get another round while I stayed at the table and ended up getting into a long conversation with a guy wearing a Levi jacket. I walk up to see what the deal with the delayed brewski was and my buddy says, "Hey man, this is Pete Ranzany." I looked at the guy and said "No, it isn't." Ranzany just smiled and shrugged his shoulders and I grabbed my beer and headed back to the table. Sorry, but the guy looked way too big to have ever fought as a welterweight he'd gotten pummeled by Sugar Ray Leonard a few years earlier. Turned out it really was him.

In that same time period, Bobby Chacon was living and training in nearby Oroville and frequently sparred against amateurs who were game for it. A guy who lived in my apartment complex who had considerable Golden Gloves experience gave it a shot one time and one time only. He said it was absolutely incredible how hard Chacon punched for his weight. He experienced it once and that was more than enough.
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Old 05-22-20, 10:10 PM
  #581  
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great thread. got involved watching both arguello v pryor fights completely via (thank you!) posted links late last night. it had been nearly four decades.

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Old 05-23-20, 04:11 AM
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thanks for jarring some memories > grew up reading RING mag ... Chacon was a beast in & out of the ring ... i boxed at pendleton in 71... in the USMC & i got to spar with real animals ... later i spent time with a local MD who was the fight doc in south east tex ... i followed the small town fight scene in tx/NM in the 80&90 ...
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Old 05-24-20, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FatRap64 View Post
When I was in college (Chico State University in Northern California) in the mid '80s, I was throwing back beers one night at a local bar with a buddy who was also a boxing fan. He went up to get another round while I stayed at the table and ended up getting into a long conversation with a guy wearing a Levi jacket. I walk up to see what the deal with the delayed brewski was and my buddy says, "Hey man, this is Pete Ranzany." I looked at the guy and said "No, it isn't." Ranzany just smiled and shrugged his shoulders and I grabbed my beer and headed back to the table. Sorry, but the guy looked way too big to have ever fought as a welterweight – he'd gotten pummeled by Sugar Ray Leonard a few years earlier. Turned out it really was him.
Yep, folks who don't hang around gyms and the boxing scene a lot are often shocked by how much fighters (and some other athletes) sacrifice to make weight. When you see a welterweight in optimal condition, that's a guy whose walking around weight would be closer to light heavyweight if he ate normally without becoming obese by most people's standards.

James Toney started as a middleweight, around 154-160, was most successful at super-middle, and would have weighed around 185 in good shape without dieting or eating everything in the kitchen. But he was notorious for his appetite and unusually successful in fighting mostly successfully at heavyweight despite lacking real heavyweight power or size.

Chris Byrd was another guy who should have fought at middle or super middle but had some success at heavy because of his speed and skills.

Bernard Hopkins started at light heavy, was most successful as a rail-thin and tall middleweight, and probably weighs closer to 200 now although he stays in reasonably good condition. Same with Roy Jones. I met Roy in Pensacola in the late 1980s, as he was moving up from middle to light heavy. He wasn't much bigger than me, about the same height but bigger frame and could carry the weight.

Tito Trinidad looked like he should have been able to move up in weight -- he looked rail thin at 147 lbs at 5'11". But he always looked soft, not cut and muscular, even at light middle, let alone at 160. He never could carry the weight naturally. Only his skill and punching power kept him competitive against lesser athletes, but he couldn't sustain it against guys like Winky Wright and Roy Jones.

Same with Erik Morales, who couldn't get down to featherweight but also couldn't cope at heavier weights. He was dried out and weak at super-feather/junior lightweight, but couldn't really carry full lightweight or welterweight. Meanwhile guys like Pacquiao, Mayweather and even Juan Manuel Marquez managed to be successful moving from bantamweight, feather or junior lightweight up to welter and light middle. Part of that may have been PEDs, but they also had the natural ability to carry the weight and power, while Morales couldn't.

I've seen former bantamweight champ Paulie Ayala around town the past couple of years. I'd bet most people wouldn't recognize him. He's only a little heavier, maybe 145. But between that, the longer hair and beard, he looks nothing like the guy in those bouts 20 years ago. Another couple of friends and former pro boxers run fitness programs and they've put on a little weight but stay in pretty good shape and look pretty much like they did as active pros. Takes a lot of self discipline to keep that weight down.

I weigh 150 lbs now, and 40 years ago fought as high as 155 when I was too lazy to lose weight. At 5'11" most folks think I'm skinny. But my optimal weight would be 140-147. In my youth I could drop to lightweight, which gave me a phenomenal advantage in reach over most guys at 132 lbs.

After boxing my non-obese walking around weight was 175, and I got as heavy as 205. I was shocked to discover I weighed over 205 -- I didn't weigh myself and didn't look that big. My weight was so evenly distributed I looked pretty normal in clothes. But I was a pork ready to be shredded. Took awhile but I got back down to 150, just for bike riding.

In that same time period, Bobby Chacon was living and training in nearby Oroville and frequently sparred against amateurs who were game for it. A guy who lived in my apartment complex who had considerable Golden Gloves experience gave it a shot one time – and one time only. He said it was absolutely incredible how hard Chacon punched for his weight. He experienced it once and that was more than enough.
Chacon was another guy who struggled to make feather and light weight, but was so skilled and such a hard puncher he could get away with it sometimes. He was such a naturally gifted boxer he had a reputation for not working hard enough at it for some bouts, like that disastrous 1975 match against Ruben Olivares. If I'm recalling correctly, the boxing commission threatened to suspend Chacon and withhold his fee for being so poorly prepared.

But when you watch films of Chacon in top shape he was so smooth and natural. He had that natural gift like Jose Napoles, Wilfred Benitez and maybe even Sugar Ray Robinson -- although Sugar Ray was never in really under-prepared for any fight, a remarkable accomplishment for such a long career and so many bouts.

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Old 05-24-20, 02:59 AM
  #584  
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
thanks for jarring some memories > grew up reading RING mag ... Chacon was a beast in & out of the ring ... i boxed at pendleton in 71... in the USMC & i got to spar with real animals ... later i spent time with a local MD who was the fight doc in south east tex ... i followed the small town fight scene in tx/NM in the 80&90 ...
We missed crossing paths by a few years. I was a Navy Corpsman assigned to Pendleton from 1976-early '78. I continued boxing but was mostly self trained which rarely works out well. I wanted to get on the military team but, as I described above, didn't do well enough to get the coach's attention. I sparred the then-Marine welterweight champ and did well in the sparring session. He seemed to be holding back but I felt like I had the style to give him trouble even in a real match. I wouldn't say I was better, just that I found him really easy to tag with a jab. Sometimes that's all you need as an amateur to outpoint the opponent. I couldn't tell whether he really had a punch since he was probably holding back, but he wasn't tagging me much either. Anyway, I only impressed myself. The coach passed on me.

I fought a few smokers on the base, did okay in some, lost another. Transferred to Washington DC, won my bout in a tourney against the Marines at Quantico, and decided to call it a career after I finished with horrific headache.

My brother was a better boxer but had a glass jaw. He tried a few early toughman contests in bars, and won a few, but even when he was outpointing the other guy he was always liable to get KO'd, which happened often. Even when he grew taller and heavier than me I could always knock him down in sparring. Great jab, cross and uppercut. No whiskers. He died about 25 years ago, but I still have the deviated septum from one of his uppercuts to remember him by.
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Old 05-24-20, 12:09 PM
  #585  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Chacon was another guy who struggled to make feather and light weight, but was so skilled and such a hard puncher he could get away with it sometimes. He was such a naturally gifted boxer he had a reputation for not working hard enough at it for some bouts, like that disastrous 1975 match against Ruben Olivares. If I'm recalling correctly, the boxing commission threatened to suspend Chacon and withhold his fee for being so poorly prepared.
Here's what I heard about Schoolboy. His wife demanded that he quit boxing. He refused, no. After the next fight, he went home and she commited suicide. He then wanted to die in the ring. So after her death came the Olivares fight. He took a beating sometimes not defending himself.
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Old 05-24-20, 04:59 PM
  #586  
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Yup, Chacon had some tragedies, between his wife's suicide and, years after boxing, losing all his money and property, then dementia pugilistica.

I quit when I began experiencing severe headaches even after bouts I won. I knew that was a danger signal. And by age 21 I still hadn't made any progress getting on a proper team in the military, with actual coaches, etc. I figured I'd had a good shot, did the best I could but didn't really have the skills. Having a hard head is an asset but not a great way to pursue a career. Years later, seeing the effects on Chacon, Meldrick Taylor and others I knew as amateurs who later became professional champions, I'm glad I got out early.

And the headaches carried over to other activities -- I'd get them after long, strenuous bike rides. And I've continued to have severe headaches for decades afterward. Only the past couple of years have I finally had some relief, due in part to more effective meds that don't have unwanted side effects, and possibly due to finally getting an auto immune disorder more or less under control.

Athletic competition at the highest level can be brutal. In the recent documentary, Lance Armstrong rants about how Jan Ullrich (whom Armstrong considers a friend) seemed to suffer more than most from the psychological pressure of the game, scandals from doping and being unable to find his footing after cycling.
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Old 05-25-20, 08:31 AM
  #587  
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Now for my next buddy, Palomino. He was on the Army boxing team, after that got real training under Noe Cruz, became a "real boxer" with angles, counter punches, double left hook, etc. Came up in ranks, signed up with Jackie McCoy/Noe Cruz, went to Cal State Long Beach, B.S. Phys Education, learned interval training while happenstance watching Cal State Long Beach cross country runners doing quarter mile intervals. With intervals got even stronger outlasting opponents with endurance, mimmicking intervals but in the ring with 3 minutes on and 1 minute off for 15 rounds.

Now? Even with as little amateur fights and pro fights, the slurred speech shows up.
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Old 05-26-20, 02:53 AM
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Carlos Palomino was slick. I remember trying to emulate his classic jab, cross, left hook to the body and head. Never could get his natural flow. I learned the jab-cross-power jab 1-2-1 as an amateur and never really got the hang of throwing a hook in a combination.

You might recall that he used that slick three punch combo to put down Tony Danza's character in a "Taxi" episode when Carlos was a guest. I was so impressed by how slick he was. Never could get the hang of that timing and flow.

Some folks who weren't around back then don't know how good Palomino was because he had the bad luck to peak at the same time as several all time greats in the welterweight and adjacent divisions: notably Wilfred Benitez and Roberto Duran. He did well against both. I still rewatch the video of Palomino against Duran because they were almost mirror images of each other. Duran was just a little slicker at infighting. Palomino was better on the outside but, as with Leonard in their first fight, Duran was a master as suckering opponents into fighting to his strengths.

Carlos seems like a great guy, sharp sense of humor and in good shape. He's almost 10 years older than me, and I still wouldn't want to fight him. He got out at the right time, and didn't push his luck too far during his 1990s return.


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Old 06-18-20, 03:47 PM
  #589  
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Well a lot of fights getting shelved because of the Covid. Good time to dust off gems and revisit.


Oscar at his best . . . won me $10. I could've bet more because Latino guys don't like Oscar in almost the numbers Latina girls do like him. But I sit some out when passion in the nosebleed seats runs high . . . basically I'm too old to be collecting bets in the yard
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Old 06-19-20, 12:30 AM
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Yeah, Pacquiao would not have beaten that De La Hoya. Or even the DLH who fought Mayweather in 2007.

Another reason why Pacquiao will never make my top ten list. Some of his "best" fights were against boxers who were past their primes and hobbled by catch weights. De La Hoya was both against Pacquiao.
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Old 09-03-20, 08:05 PM
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.https://www.badlefthook.com/2020/9/2...-news-top-rank
.

Looks like the much anticipated three belt bantamweight unification fight between Japan's Naoya Inoue and John Riel Casimero of the Philippines has temporarily fallen through due to coronavirus travel restrictions. They both want the fight though so it's likely to be made if both continue to hold their respective Bantamweight titles.
'
John Riel Casimero is set to defend his WBO belt against Australian Duke Micah on Sept. 26.
.
Naoya Inoue will defend his WBA and IBF bantamweight titles against another Australian, Jason Moloney on Oct. 31, somewhere in the U.S. according to an ESPN report citing Top Rank promoter Bob Arum. I haven't seen it on Boxrec yet so I'm assuming a contract holdup over the venue location...
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Old 09-03-20, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yeah, Pacquiao would not have beaten that De La Hoya. Or even the DLH who fought Mayweather in 2007.

Another reason why Pacquiao will never make my top ten list. Some of his "best" fights were against boxers who were past their primes and hobbled by catch weights. De La Hoya was both against Pacquiao.
Not only was De La Hoya past prime in that but overtrained. I could even see that in HBO's 24/7 prefight show (and so could Freddie Roach who was looking for the signs of it during the weigh-in.). Don't know why he decided to run 6 miles of roadwork per day when he had been doing 3 all his career unless he was struggling to make weight. B-Hop has always done 6 and probably talked him into it. Hell he hired Angelo Dundee, Ignacio Beristain, and Edwin Valero for trainers, lol. I know damned well Dundee, at least, knew better that to have him do that.
.
Everybody is different and you should stick with what works best for you when in training for any athletic event. All that high-dollar corner talent should leave no reason to overtrain other than signing a contract for a weight that you're struggling to make. .I wouldn't even want my name associated with that if I were a trainer . . . guess it doesn't mean I'd turn down big money for it though, lol.
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Old 09-04-20, 03:46 PM
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isnt mike tyson coming out of retirement?
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Old 10-26-20, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by coffeesnob View Post
isnt mike tyson coming out of retirement?
There are only two reasons for fighters to come out of an earnest retirement from the ring:

Either he's broke or he needs the money..
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Old 10-26-20, 11:36 PM
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Well I saw the Lomenchenko vs Lopez lightweight title unification fight a week late on the tube.

So Loma is human at 135

The commentators actually made me miss hearing HBO's crew . . . even Merchant, lol. Somehow they had it even after 11 rounds. I had Lopez about 7 or 8 rounds up.

Loma just didn't risk stopping moving to punch. No "Stick him Willie" (Angelo Dundee to Willie Pastrano) coming from his corner . . . very very few jabs from Loma. And when he did throw it was in combinations, lead with power punches, so I'm assuming he had his feet planted for some of those but he never hurt him. So feinting and footwork doesn't win rounds without volume of punches, commentators scoring notwithstanding. Lopez pursued quickly cutting the ring well until he gassed just a little in the later rounds. Loma also found some counters to Lopez's jab so Lopez didn't throw those steadily later like he started out doing. He still owned that fight though. Too big and too fast for Loma's risk of punching. enough.

In the words of the late Bert Sugar: "Is he trying to win a fight?"
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Old 10-27-20, 02:28 AM
  #596  
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Yeah, Loma looked under-prepared. He looked like the pandemic layoff had hindered his usual prep and vibe. Frankly he looked soft, very little muscle definition. Not fat, but not cut. Mostly he looked like he didn't have a plan.

Not to take anything away from Teofimo Lopez, who fought the fight of his career and found the recipe for beating... well... for beating an under-prepared Lomachenko.

It's hard to say whether Lopez would have beaten a peak Lomachenko. Loma mostly just covered up for the first six rounds, but he wasn't getting tagged solidly all that often either.

And when Loma did wake up and do some fighting for two or three rounds around round 8, he was much more effective than Lopez... but couldn't seem to sustain it. And Lopez closed the show well in the final round.

Still, at the end of the bout, it was Lopez with the marked up face while Loma looked like he'd finished sparring.

Kinda reminded me of Pacquiao vs Clottey. Yeah, Pacman easily outpointed Clottey but rarely penetrated that high-hands defense and mostly scored with body shots. But at the end of the fight it was Pacquiao with the busted up face while Clottey seemed blase about the whole affair. Although, to be fair to Pacquiao, if Clottey had opened up and taken more chances, he'd have gotten caught too.

I'd like to see a rematch. If Loma can psych himself up back to peak form I can see him out hustling Lopez for the decision. But he'd need to be perfect.
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Old 10-27-20, 08:14 AM
  #597  
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Just found this thread.
Its nice to see some boxers / boxing fans around.
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Old 10-27-20, 08:55 AM
  #598  
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Originally Posted by Zinger View Post
There are only two reasons for fighters to come out of an earnest retirement from the ring:

Either he's broke or he needs the money..

It's my understanding that if he fights again (and he is preparing) that it's just going to be an exhibition with the opponent being Roy Jones Sr. or something like that. I wouldn't pay to see it but some might. If it's a real fight, the NV boxing commission shouldn't allow it. Tyson is doing enough outside activities (Movies, TV appearances) that any of us could live on it. Unfortunately he is still living in a huge house, supporting other people, keeping is wife (girlfriends) happy and that is keeping him broke. Sad, because I actually like the guy.
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Old 10-27-20, 12:16 PM
  #599  
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I like Mike and Roy Jones Jr. and while I would have like to see the two styles against each other in their prime, I cringe at the idea at their current ages.
Im not sure that Roys speed and reflexes have survived the years as well as Mikes power and aggression.
i hope they both go at it as an exhibition with restraint and a sense of humor, and they dont try to turn it into a real bout.
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Old 10-31-20, 11:42 PM
  #600  
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I'm not looking forward to Roy Jones Jr vs Mike Tyson. Roy hasn't been the same since he bulked up for John Ruiz, then lost the weight too quickly and struggled against Antonio Tarver, and then got KO'd by Tarver in the rematch.

Roy occasionally showed a few flashes of the prime Roy, but not consistently. And he's suffered some brutal knockouts against Glenn Johnson, Denis Lebedev, Green and Maccarinelli. That KO by Lebedev was terrible to see, as Lebedev took one final killer shot against an already unconscious Jones who was slumped against the ropes and defenseless.

Jones should never have stepped into the ring again. His reflexes, speed and defensive wizardry are gone. Correction: his only defense was a radar-like ability to avoid counter punches. He doesn't have that anymore. And he never developed the fundamentals of defense -- parrying, blocking, shoulder rolls, bobbing and weaving, etc. He's never been good against the ropes.

Jones is still just barely quick enough to catch an opponent with those odd, leaping lead left hooks and implausibly long rights. Over his career Jones surprised many opponents with lead left hooks and lead rights because he gets way more reach than seems possible. The secret is in his shoulders. If you study Roy's torso, his shoulders are set unusually far forward and very flexible. It effectively extends his reach by 2 inches or more. He often capitalized on that during his prime. But that prime ended 20 years ago.

And I don't see Jones catching Tyson hard enough with those shots even in his prime. Tyson has an incredibly tough jaw and was never knocked out cold. Even against Buster Douglas and Holyfield,Tyson was still conscious.

Tyson's weakness has always been sustaining a consistent offense while bobbing and weaving. After splitting from Rooney he got lazy and would stop using effective movement after the first few rounds. A savvy opponent only needed to stay away for a few rounds and gradually wear Mike down.

But Mike still has the power and speed. If he comes straight at Roy with decent offense and defense, it won't go three rounds unless (a) Mike holds back, or (b) Roy runs until Tyson slows down.

Having watched some fairly recent videos of Roy's workouts, I don't see this coming out well for him. He's aged much worse than Tyson. There are videos of him getting physical therapy for a knotted up back, neck and shoulders, which means he won't have the old quickness and reach.

I really do not want to see this fight happen. If they go ahead with it I hope it'll just be an exhibition with two grand warriors moving around and putting on a show. But if either of them hits the other, it's gonna escalate to war immediately. And it won't end well for Jones.
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