kccommuter

This should be easy. I have heard before you can choose between any 2 of the following 3 requirements for a shell (windproof, breathable or waterproof) - so my request seems reasonable. Please share your shell recommendation for cold, dry winter commuting - below is a lot more background info.

I have been a year round commuter from Appleton, WI. since 2008 and am looking for a better shell for cold, dry winter conditions (January avg high 24 Deg F and avg low 8 Deg F). I know, I should have figured this out already, but it has been a real challenge.

I have a Showers Pass Elite 2.0 which has been great, but my base layer gets damp at temps below 25 Deg F. I have tried severe venting, different base layers, etc but no success. I posted a while back and it seems others just cope with the dampness and use wool base layers, etc - https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...e+condensation

I have the J&G Cycling Yellow Jacket https://www.bicycleclothing.com/Wind-Jackets.html, which is more breathable than the SP Elite, but has proven to not be windproof enough from my experience.

I think this situation calls for a little science. I have been researching different soft shell fabrics and read the following article that references air perm and states "fabrics that measure as much as 5 CFM are still functionally windproof" https://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/...a-testing.html

I have access to an air perm tester and am planning to test several materials next week at different wind speeds. I have talked with Lou at Foxwear and he sent me some fabrics and I will test these as well as the SP elite and J&G yellow jacket. Hoping to find a fabric (potentially Powershield or Powershield Pro) that have less air perm than the J&G yellow jacket. My plan is then to have Lou make me an Evap jacket with this plus a more breathable Powderstretch for the side and underarm panels. I have read good reviews from BF on this Evap jacket. I am an engineer, so if nothing else, this looks to be a practical and fun experiment!!

MNBikeCommuter

Let me know what you discover as I'd like a good one too. :-) I had a decent, breathable pair of wind pants for many years, but when it came time to replace them, I couldn't find any with the same fabric. I did find bolts of the fabric but couldn't convince my wife to sew me a new pair.

One problem I've had with breathable fabrics in colder temps is that the vapor hits the material and frosts/freezes over rather than passing through. That would be another test I'd like you to add to your experiments. :-)

david58

Windproof and breathable - in my experience, we have an Oxymoron. If the breathable fabric is indeed breathable, it will be only marginally so. I can easily out-sweat my garments at 25deg F - and that being a baselayer, a wool sweater, and one of those lightweight convertible (sleeves zip off) Pearl Izumi jackets (admittedly not a breathable jacket - just an example of how little I can wear and still work up a sweat - Goretex would get sweaty, too).

You might look at the REI Novarra jacket that has the wind/wet resistant fabric on the front and sleeves, and the back is just the thermal spandexy stuff. My pants of the same are great - in all but the coldest or wettest situations they work very well.

Back in the day, my wife worked for The North Face (before it became a department store brand) in garment design. Basically, their approach was that breathable was a nice word, but in fact if you are active it simply cannot breathe enough. And waterproof? I do covet a Showers Pass jacket (very nicely made and ventilated, not truly breathable), but for waterproof a Performance rain jacket with pit zips and some waterproof Showers Pass pants do the trick. And I shower when I get to work - no way I can ride in "relaxed" enough to get away without one unless it's a weekend and I am the only person in the office.

rumrunn6

I went with a cycling specific rain jacket to which I added reflective tape. it was great during the dark commutes and also great for the weather. I used it during daytime rain rides even when the sun was up. I didn't use it during the summer. I used lighter weight layers underneath and that was the trick - getting the under layers correct. I got an expensive one on sale at REI

sam21fire

I sweat like the proverbial pig when I ride so breathability is important to me...I've been very impressed with the Endura cycling jacket. Not sure which model it is, but it's yellow w/ black sides, zip pits. They run smaller than you expect and the zipper is on the 'wrong' side but other than that it's a great jacket.

kccommuter

@MNBikeCommuter - your weather conditions are similar to mine. What shell/jacket are you using and how is it working?

Kawriverrat

For a jacket I dont care if it is Goretex, Event etc. what ever, I have found repeatedly, pit zips & any other well designed venting is what makes or breaks the jacket used for biking in colder weather or rain.

FanaticMN

+1 for Novara headwind jacket (and pants). Even at 10 F with a 15 mph headwind, all I need is a thin long sleeve jersey under the jacket and medium smart wools under the pants. I get too warm with smart wool under the jacket, at least so far. We'll see what happens in January. They are not waterproof, though they do ok in drizzle.
Everyone is different, so ymmv, of course.

If only the jacket came in a true hi-vis color.

a1penguin

+1. I really like my headwind pants. They aren't tights, so you can wear leg warmers or base layer beneath them. I'm always cold and below 45º I need more than the pants. I was at REI today and the REI Novara Express jacket can be bought for 30% off. It looks like a really good rain jacket for $63. The review says it doesn't breathe, though. I'm still on the hunt for a rain jacket that won't break the bank.

scroca

I think windproof is the wrong approach. This is what creates the wet, sweaty interior that will do you in when it's really cold. You need something that breathes.

I've recommended foxwear before and still do. Lou can set you up with something that fits and works well in the cold, especially cold and dry.
https://foxwear.net/

You can get fit, color choice and reflective strips all for a reasonable price.

It's great you have some sample fabrics, so you can conduct your tests. I am looking forward to hearing your results.

MichaelW

For cold, dry conditions, the best material is a tight-weave, non-membrane fabric such as polyester or poly-cotton. I use the Huff test to determine its permeability; If you can huff through the material with ease, it is too porus. If you cant huff through it at all, it is not permeable enough. If you can huff through with some pressure, it will be totally windproof but fairly breathable.
In the Antarctic, the material of choice is a tight-weave cotton called Ventile that is used in military aircrew survival suits.
My usual winter jacket is by Paramo. It has no membrane, a windproof shell and a wicking liner and is effectively waterproof under the harshest conditions.
There are many "softshell" style jackets which may be suitable.

v0_boulder

Personally for me it is layers key to success, my first layer is a Jersey than if it is a little colder 40-60 the Gore Phantom is the next layer. If it is super cold 30 to 40 I put on my Arcteryx micro fleece under the Gore Phantom. Haven't had problems with the Gore's waterproofing, although I haven't ridden in any rainstorms. Although I did manage to accidentally stick my arm in the shower and it was dry. I would recommend for precipitation getting a hard-shell no insulation jacket would be your best bet. Also remember that the body loses heat through the groin and the head,if those are properly protected than you will still be cold. I wouldn't suggest one wonder layer because all the esoteric properties don't exist. Such as a hard-shell being water proof doesn't always breath well. The same can be said about some wind proof layers not breathing. And a breathable base like a jersey doesn't block the wind or rain to well. Therefore I would suggest layers not a wonder do all solution

Cheers,

aglauser

Another example along these lines is a heavy, tightly woven cotton shirt, like a rugby shirt. I find that keeps a surprising amount of wind out in dry, cool conditions. In fact, I find it too warm over a lightweight wool baselayer down to 45f ~ 8C or so.

kccommuter

Thanks all for the replies. Based on your input, I think I am on the right path. I will do the air perm testing on Tuesday and then use the results to select a material with some air perm (in the 5 to 10 cfm range), then work something up with Lou at Foxwear.

Thanks for the help!

cyclocello

In 30-40 deg F I wear wool and wool with some more wool. (merino knit baselayer with thrift store pendletons or woolrich). It's definitely breathable! Wind goes through it easily. I just shrug off the cold for the first 5m until I warm up.

fietsbob

Look for caped back on rain jackets, that lets the excess heat out.

Throw on the windblock front vest under the rain jacket and It seems OK..
once again breathes out the back side..


It is not dry cold on the NW Coast.
I have a Heavy Carhartt ANSI reflector parka I wear a Lot this Winter..
a See ME sticking out like a sore is good in my mind, neon lime,
2" reflector stripes,
Got one from La Crosse company, it got low marks on keeping me dry
in the 2 miles I have to ride to get home.. thawed water on the coast..
maybe the breathability was over emphasized.

back in the old days at the top of the mountain passes
they handed the competitor a few pages of newspaper
to stuff under their wool jerseys for the descent down the other side.

matimeo

+1

Nothing that is really waterproof or windproof breathes very well. You just aren't going to find it or somebody would have already marketed it.

paul2432

I use the Pearl Izumi Gavia jacket (no longer made unfortunately). It's a soft shell and works great. I usually wear just a thin smart wool baselayer underneath and I'm comfortable probably 10F-35F. I'll wear something a little thicker below 10F. The coldest I've used this jacket is -17F and I've been fine with just a thicker baselayer. On the warm end, above 35-40F gets a little hot, but I usually just unzip the front a bit and I'm good. I don't know if PI makes something equivalent in their current lineup.

https://www.backcountry.com/pearl-izu...ia-jacket-mens

Paul

kiltedcelt

I've been struggling with this as well. I have a Bellweather Aqua-No jacket with pit zips and a rear vent, for wearing when it's really raining heavy. I could wear a jersey underneath it and it be 40 degrees out and still end up sweating heavily. When I wore it and it was dry out, I'd work up such a sweat inside the jacket that once I took it off, I could feel the sweat that had moved through the windproof/waterproof layer of the jacket because it wicks out and condenses on the outside of the jacket. Of course the inside of the jacket and whatever base layer I was wearing would be well and truly saturated. I recently purchased a softshell jacket on the recommendation of a friend who swears by his. He bought a Cloud Veil (?) jacket while mine was a Nashbar version. The softshell is okay in that I don't feel as if I get sweated up quite as much in it, but it still ends up reaching some kind of saturation point because near the end of my 40-50 minute commute I reach the tipping point from being warm and kinda sweaty to becoming slightly chilled and damp feeling. I've tried every combination of base layer and I just can't seem to get it right. I too wish there was something that would keep me comfortable and dry when the temps are ranging from 10's to 30's.

Booger1

Your wearing 4,5,6 layers of clothing and exercising,seems about right to me.

As far as I know,there are no one-way fabrics.If it can keep water and wind out,it can keep it in also.

Companies keep claiming this,it may work in the lab on lab rats or with fans or test beds,but in the real world it doesn't work that well.

Best I can tell you is to wear wool.It may get wet but it will keep you warm.I wear a $40 rainjacket from Campmor,rain or no rain,layer up with wool underneath,no complaints.

tarwheel 

Seems like a softshell jacket would be way to go. I have a Pearl Izumi Gavia as well as a Gore Phantom, and both keep me warm down to the teens with proper base gear, plus they will handle light rain. I haven't ridden in temps lower than 15 F so I can't vouch for their performance in colder temps. The Gore Phantom is particularly easy to ventilate because it has removable sleeves, and they can function as large pit vents if you just unzip the sleeves about halfway.

tjspiel

I guess I didn't think it was that hard. Maybe I've just gotten lucky or maybe my expectations are lower.

For several years I've worn a "Running Room" softshell jacket that I got at a thrift store for maybe $10. I arrive at work slightly sweaty in places but not soaked by any means. I wear it over a base layer and an insulating layer on typical winter days (between 0 and 32 F). For colder days ( < 0 F), I will usually add add another layer underneath it.

The jacket is nice enough. It has pit zips, reflective stripes, velcro wristbands, lower back for better coverage on a bike, drawstring waist, and a rear pocket. As far as material goes though I don't think it's anything special. It's water resistant and wind proof enough. From that standpoint it works no better than what I used before it, - the outer layer of a Columbia system jacket which I also got a garage sale or something. And that didn't really work any better than what I had before that which was just some sort of shell.

It won't work for a heavy downpour. Thankfully we don't get many of those during the winter but it has been happening now and then in recent years. As a kid I remember it being really unusual to get rain in December or January, but it's not so unusual anymore.

cyclocommuter

What works for me on long group rides and commutes (1.5 hours) down to -15C (not including windchill) is an outer soft shell jacket that has a windproof front for the (chest and arms) and breathable back/back of the arms. Depending on how cold it gets I have anywhere from 1 to 3 more layers inside. I alternate between a Pearl Izumi Barrier or a Castelli Mortirolo jacket for the outer layer. Both do the job equally well... I still get sweaty on hard efforts (group rides) but much less so than if I wore a non breathable jacket.

MNBikeCommuter

I had to go look. :-) It's by Simms, a fishing supply company in Bozeman, MT. Being many years old, a quick look at their website doesn't bring up anything similar. It's just a nylon windbreaker with hood. More importantly, it doesn't have the typical urethane coating to make it waterproof/resistant. As you said you're just wanting something for dry conditions, there's a lot of excess discussion here on waterproof materials.

My take and experience on breathability and windproof is that they aren't mutually exclusive. The nylon windproof fabric of this (cheap, with a nod to tjspiel's similar attitude) windbreaker does a decent job of blocking the wind, but at the same time, wicks sweat to the outside. Likewise, if I get caught in the rain, it'll wick it right back in. And that's fine, as I've got the same needs as you: something for a cold and dry ride. But trying to find a nylon windbreaker without that urethane coating is a challenge....

Ventile sounds intriguing. Given the right weave and cotton's wicking capacity, it could certainly be the ticket.

paul2432

Water vapor and liquid water behave differently. The idea of waterproof/breathable fabric is that it blocks liquid water (rain), but transmits water vapor (evaporated sweat). Transport will be in the direction of high humidity (inside the jacket) to low humidity (outside the jacket). There are two problems here, first if it is could enough for sweat to condense on the inside of your jacket, the material will block it, and second if the atmospheric humidity is high the driving force is reduced. On a cold dry day, the first problem is your main concern, on a warmer wet day, it's the second problem.

Paul