dmusicant

I have always done my own bike mechanics, but I have taken my bike to a guy a couple of times the last 2-3 years or so, really like him, but his shop closed up recently and I don't know of another bike mechanic in my town. Well, there are MANY, but I don't know who I'd go to in a pinch. I'd go to Yelp and hope...

In 2010 I went into local bike shop and they sold me a new rear wheel for my now 20+ year old Miyata triple-butted road bike with 27" wheels. I didn't want a quick release but the guy told me I couldn't get a new rear wheel for the bike otherwise. I took his word for it. I kinda think it's not such a great wheel. A couple years ago the axle broke and I had it replaced (by that guy who just evidently went out of business). The last year or so the spokes have been breaking. Must be around 5 broken. I doubt they're stainless, seriously! I replaced them with what I have lying around, trued the wheel, but the wheel won't stay true and I figure I have to do something, if for no other reason than it's a PITA to keep replacing broken spokes on a rear wheel! I have a couple wheels in my Amazon "cart" but looking, I see I have a used 27" rear wheel (WITHOUT quick-release) with what I think are good looking stainless spokes. It's fitted with a Suntour 6 sprocket freewheel. My current wheel has a Shimano 6 sprocket freewheel. I think both freewheels are 14-28 teeth. The Suntour freewheel on that set-aside wheel looks good to me, but I'm no expert.

So, I'm thinking why not swap out the problem wheel for the wheel with the Suntour freewheel, true it and see how it goes. I'm wondering if this is a good idea. Or, I figure I could put the Shimano freewheel I've been using on that set-aside wheel with the stainless spokes and use that. If I use the Suntour freewheel instead, should I get a new chain? The old chain has a number of years on it. I haven't ridden that chain a lot, maybe 400 miles/year, but have started to ride more, maybe 1000 miles/year (i.e. 20 miles/week).

le mans

Maybe the Suntour cogs has similar wear as the chain, I'd go with it see how she rides

le mans

If you haven't got a chain wear gauge {i haven't}, i just grab some links and see if there's any play

This has minimal play, the freewheel i had on it was a 6spd shimano ..didn't realize a tooth was missing untill i took it for a test ride, changed it over to a Suntour..good looking teeth, rides nice, just need to stick bar tape on

Unca_Sam

What you describe doesn't give me hesitation in stating that you can rebuild your current wheel with some careful measurements. Spokes break; it happens. When lots of spokes break, generally they've had all the loading they can take. Jobst Brandt thought it was due to loose spokes, and that tighter spokes gave better service. Unless your rim is pretty dinged up and no longer sufficiently round and the hub cups are pitted or worn out, or just plain cheap, rebuilding a wheel is one way to understand how your wheels work and how to patch them up. If you're intimidated and want a bike shop to do it, you might be better off buying a new wheel.

Or just swap the freewheels, no other thought needed.

Wheelbuilding isn't hard if you have the tools and the patience.

Wilfred Laurier

The wheels purchased from bike shops often have a flaw in their assembly - the spokes are not 'stress relieved' before being sold, and this results in the spoke tension dropping after the first few hundred km, which will eventually lead to broken spokes. You can tighten the spokes up after riding, or do the 'stress relieving' befoere riding and this will generally give you the best shot at having a long-lasting wheel.
However, if you have been putting high mileage or heavy use on the bike, 9 years is a pretty good life span for a machine built wheel.

As above, wheel building is not rocket surgery, so replacing the spokes with new ones is totally doable.

Some other points:

QR axles are actually not significantly weaker than solid axles - the centre few mm missing is made up for with the QR skewer. 6sp bikes with QR axles were standard equipment from the mid to late 80s and they were ok for durability. When 7 speed became a thing, the unsupported length of axle under the freewheel got longer and bent and broken axles became much more common. Most high quality bikes from the late 80s onward have a 'freehub' design which puts the driveside bearing further outboard and makes for a much stronger assembly. It is possible that your replacement wheel was spaced for a 7sp hub and that made it weaker, not the QR axle.

Non-stainless spokes ('Nickle plated') are generally strong enough, but, 9 years of regular use with possibly insufficient tension is a lot to ask of any spokes.

It may be possible to mount 700c - the modern road standard size - wheels on your bike. If you can adjust your brake pads 4mm down from where they meet the 27" rims then 700C will probably fit without major modifications. THis is often easier with caliper brakes than with cantilever brakes. This modification gives you a couple benefits: esp. much wider choice of tires and rims, and a few mm of extra clearance if you want to run slightly wider tires (many bikes that came with 27x1-1/4 tires can be fitter with 700 X 35 or even 38mm wide tires.

You don't need a chain wear gage - you only need a 12" ruler. Measure from the centre of one pin on the bottom run of chain to the centre of the pin closest to 12" along. If the chain is more than ~1/16" 'stretched' over 12" then it is likely worn to the point that a new chain will not mesh properly with your old cogs.

dmusicant

OK, so maybe if I don't hear "kerchunk" from the chain I'm good?

Edit 1: Um, I made mistakes in the OP, I'm not riding 7500mi/year now, just maybe 1000. Was riding maybe 400 before this year but my gym closed so, ride more to get to new one.

Edit 2: I DO have a chain guage. Haven't used it, bought it a few months ago from Asia. Cheap, but I figure it probably works. Didn't come with instructions, I figure I can figure out how to use it somehow. The chain I'm using has a quick-link, I don't have to use a chain removal tool to get it off to clean it. I've cleaned my chains for years once in a while with paint thinner swishing in a big pan.

dmusicant

When you say rebuild the wheel, do you mean also replacing the spokes? That sounds intimidating. The only tools I have for that are spoke wrenches.

Why not use the spare wheel? At least its spokes look good, clean, unrusted and they don't respond to a magnet, which convinces me they are SS.

dmusicant

I'm surprised to read in this thread that insufficient spoke tension leads to broken spokes. I suspected (intuitively) that broken spokes happened because some spokes were too tight.

I have no way of knowing if my spokes are too tight or too loose other than what Cuthbertson said in his Anybody's Bike Book (which I've had for decades) saying to go around your rim and get a sense of the median spoke tension and just try to get your spokes all in the neighborhood of that tension (while having the rim reasonably true). That's been my M.O. ever since. I haven't bothered checking the tensions or even much checking trueness of the rims unless I detect problems (e.g. rim rubbing on brake pads). But the last week or so I've been checking the spoke tensions and trueness of the rim almost daily. That rim isn't keeping true. Several spokes were obviously too loose yesterday. I'm hoping that other wheel would be better.

Miele Man

I'd try the spare wheel. If you get chain skip you could then either change the freewheels or get a new chain. I'd be inclined to change the freewheels if the chain skipped since you know the one freewheel works well with the chain you have on the bike. Changing the chain might not work if the spare wheel freewheel is also worn.

Cheers

Unca_Sam

Rebuilding the wheel would be more an issue if you had a suntour accushift cassette and freehub. There's no current replacement for that. But you don't, just unscrew your current freehub and swap to the new wheel. Or don't. If you're using friction shifters, freehub spacing doesn't matter.

le mans

Good tip, Thanks. Usually if i feel too much play i'll dice the chain.

le mans

That's right if i don't hear any weird noises during a test ride going through the gears, she's good. Do all manner of tests including stand up pedaling, hill climbs etc

cpach

If the rim and hub of your current wheel are satisfactory, the best option is to have it rebuilt by a good wheelbuilder/mechanic, or if you want you can pick up the tools and do it yourself. Spokes break mostly due to uneven or insufficient tension which is common on factory wheels, especially on what is mostly a budget segment of the market these days--27". Basically, when a load is applied to a wheel the spokes near the ground loose tension--if tension is inadequate they slacken and fatigue where they bend repetitively.

If the current rim/hub are crummy, old hubs are relatively easy to buy on eBay, or many shops will even have some in a parts drawer somewhere. The nicest easily available/inexpensive freewheel hub that most bike shops can order is probably https://velo-orange.com/collections/...heel-hub-126mm. If a bike shop has a JBI account, they can order some really cheap but serviceable wheelmaster hubs. If you really want to not have a QR lever you can get tooled skewers. Hollow axles are minimally less strong than solid ones by nature, and are usually higher quality and thus actually stronger. Companies like Velocity still make very high quality rims in 27" (the Dyad, in this example).

Wilfred Laurier

Respoking a wheel only requires one tool - a spoke wrench that properly fits your nipples.

It can be made much easier and faster with second tool called a 'nipple driver' - basically a slot screwdriver with a tip profile that keeps the tip centred in the nipple head.

Here's a link to the Park Tool version: https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5048-7...-Nipple-Driver - you can spin the nipples a bit faster with this tool than with a straight screwdriver and this is a nice feature if you regularly build wheels. For doing one or two wheels over your lifetime you can improvise with a plain screwdriver, or modify a screwdriver with a file if you wish. You use your nipple driver to get the spokes and nipples installed, then do final tightening, tensioning and truing with the spoke wrench.

It is easier if you have a wheel truing stand, but you can also just use your brake pads (or a zip tie) as a gauge and tension and true the wheel while it is mounted in your frame.


Generally speaking, you should start by bringing the spokes up to nice high and even feeling tension, then work on removing the 'out-of-roundness' (or 'up-and-down') by working around the rim and tightening or loosening adjacent spokes to move that section of the rim closer or further from the hub, then work on side-to-side truing. Then remove the wheel and flip it around and install it into the frame or fork backwards and see if the rim is in the same place respective of your brake pads... this is checking the 'dish' - the centeredness of the rim between the dropouts. If the rim is closer to one side than the other, you tighten all the spokes on one side and loosen all the spokes on the other side to pull the rim toward where it will be centred, then flip the wheel over to check the dish again, and repeat until the rim is centred and the location between the brake pads doesn't change when the wheel is flipped.

Unca_Sam

I agree that rebuilding his current wheel is a possibility, but if he has a readily available wheel with a freewheel and the right OLN width, why bother? The only reason I'm bothering building/rebuilding wheels is because I'm being stubborn in keeping the Accushift stuff that came with the bike, and I need a Suntour freehub to do it.

Miele Man

I went to a dollar store and bought a few cheap screwdrivers that I then filed down until the thing tip fitted into the hole in a spoke nipple. One screwdriver/nipple driver was filed so that it released after four turns of the spoke. I got that idea from Jobst Brand's THE BICYCLE WHEEL book years ago. I have a couple of other screwdriver/nipple drivers that release after a different number of turns. It makes tightening the spokes to a certain point really easy.

Cheers

dmusicant

Yup, this is my thinking. Thank you... it's on my short list of projects! By this time next week, it should be done.

Actually, I think I'll just swap wheels and at the same time swap freewheels. Presumably the old chain shouldn't give obvious problems with the freewheel I've been using. Otherwise, if I get chain skipping with the Suntour freewheel, I have to dismount the tire again. I hate messing with rear wheels, so much more work than front wheels... including getting the chain back onto the derailleur. I don't do it often enough to feel comfortable doing it. Plus, I have a thorn resistant tube in that back wheel, plus a urethane tire liner! It makes for very few flats, but messing with the wheel is a chore.

dmusicant

A few questions:

The spoke nipple driver. Can I use a cordless screwdriver instead?

Now, the process of re-spoking a wheel, do you do this one spoke at a time, i.e. remove one old spoke and replace with a new one, and continue until you get them all (36?)?

I don't have a wheel truing stand. What I do have is what I think is an old weight lifting bench which many years ago I converted to a bike repair stand. I can suspend the bike on it, at least the rear wheel, so it spins freely. This is good for truing the back wheel. I've been eyeballing the clearance of the brake pads. What I haven't done (maybe ever) is pay attention to the up/down movement, just side to side! I guess that's a mistake.

Now flipping the wheel around to correct for dish... This has me confused. I read the other day (and once before) that rear wheels (at least on 12 speed bikes like mine) have dished rear wheels. So, wouldn't that make it hard or impossible to correct for incorrect dish by turning a rear wheel over and re-truing?

dmusicant

I don't know what kind of shifters I have. There's front and rear levers mounted below the top tube, not the kind with shifters on the handlebars, which I've never had. I think it's pretty standard type equipment, but probably not something they do anymore.

dmusicant

I don't understand this. How would a screwdriver release after N turns of a spoke (nipple)?

Edit: Oh, thinking about it, I suppose if the screwdriver tip angles in, eventually the edges will catch on the holes in the rim and make it impossible to drive the nipple down on the spoke end any further. Is that the concept?

Unca_Sam

Radial true is very important, but if the wheel you had was fine when you started, it usually takes an impact to move it appreciably. Since completely relaxing and tensing spokes causes breakage, you likely have a 'low' spot on the wheel. A straight edge across your fork or seatstays does the trick.

It's true that rear wheels are dished. The angles from the flanges to the rim are greater on the freewheel side, because the flange is closer to the center. You can flip the wheel in the drop outs to verify dish because the rim should be over the center of the hub body and the lock nuts, not centered between the flanges.

Unca_Sam

To rebuild, you would reduce tension all the way around the wheel first. I'd remove all the spokes first, because you'll eventually need to lace them, and it's easier if you have all your "heads out" spokes in first. Sheldon Brown's page on wheelbuilding is a wonderful resource here.

Again, spokes aren't cheap and will likely get more expensive as tariffs take effect. You're better served swapping wheels for now.

Rebuilding is significantly easier with a dedicated stand, and I'd recommend a tension meter so you can have confidence in your build. Lowest price on that is around $80, $120-130 if you buy Park Tools tension meter and cheap straight gauge spokes.

This means that buying machine-built wheels is cheaper the first time. You'll get a whole wheelset starting at $150.

Miele Man

Practice makes rear wheel changes easier. LOL You need Rae Don Chong to change wheels for you. In AMERICAN FLYERS she changed a rear wheel in something like ten seconds!


Cheers

Miele Man

As I said in my post. I filed each side of the screwdriver blade until there was only a thin/narrow bit left that was small enough to fit inside the spoke nipple. The I filed that thin section until it'd release once the screwdriver turned the spoke nipple 4 times. What happens is that after 4 turns of the spoke nipple the spoke inside the nipple pushes the screwdriver/nipple driver out of the slot in the spoke nipple head. The other screwdriver/nipple drivers have different lengths of the narrow part that fits inside the spoke nipple. By varying those lengths I can control how many turns that driver makes before letting go. It makes it so easy to bring the wheel build to the final tensioning/trueing phase.

Cheers

Miele Man

I just quickly made a screwdriver/nipple driver because I'm not at home.

Here it is with a spoke nipple and a spoke




Here it is with the spoke nipple on it.




Here it is with the spoke nipple getting screwed onto the spoke. I did it off the wheel for clarity.




Here it is with the spoke nipple screwed partway onto the spoke and you can see how the spoke has pushed the driver away from the spoke nipple.




By adjusting the length of that narrow center section when making the tool you can control how far onto the spoke each spoke nipple goes.

Cheers