HTupolev

A lower and more aft saddle position changes the implications of a given saddle-to-handlebar position, by closing the thigh-to-torso angle.

CliffordK

A few weeks ago I test rode a very nice cargo bike. Front steering was with a linkage.

That thing was just all over the road. I just couldn't get it to track straight.

It felt like the wheel turned faster than the bars. And, it may have, I'm not sure. However, I finally determined that the issue was the thing had these big Texas Longhorn handlebars. And, for me, it is extremely rare to ride a bike that doesn't have drop bars. So, I've likely trained my muscles for drop bars.

So, with these longhorn bars... And a light load, I think I was just over-steering really badly. I've finally realized that I was probably getting too much leverage with the bars (for my riding).

I've started switching bikes & loads a bit on my own bikes. Within a hundred or so miles, I do get used to whatever bike I'm riding. And, I suppose returning to that bike is easier than the first time out.

noglider 

Same here. And we're all sounding like experienced cyclists who have tried many bikes, and that's because we are. Weirdly, when I try a new bike, often the cranks feel like they're bent to me. The worst one was the Bianchi Volpe I had for a while. I don't know why. Maybe the Q factor was bigger. But eventually, that illusion went away.

Phamilton

That's really weird. I thought the bent cranks thing was just me. So weird I've never felt comfortable saying anything about it. Worst case scenario - I'm as weird as noglider. I'm OK with that.

OK but it's worth mention that this yellow bike - the cranks have never felt funny. But the other two bikes I pictured here, yes, cranks felt bent. My old 3 speed - nope. I had an old MTB I gave my brother - nope. My old Schwinn Super Sport I sold - nope.

Phamilton

I think I agree with this. For me, it's pretty easy to find a good seated position regardless of frame size/geometry, and I move around quite a bit. It's been harder for me to find/figure out a good out of saddle position. Maybe it's easier to adapt to the seated position since it comprises the majority of the ride time. I don't even have hills here to speak of so sometimes out of saddle happens on the flats, so pretty often after I've stopped at an intersection I'll stay out of saddle for a while after I get moving again. Circulation is a big deal, at least for me. An hour is a long time to spend on a bike without getting out of the saddle, IME.

Cassave

A very nice explanation of bike geometry here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycl...cycle_geometry

The discussion on wheel flop and weight distribution changes is very on point.

rhm

USAZorro

I think cadence has as much (or more) to do with planing than does rider weight. Actually, I don't think weight is the proper variable at all. A smaller rider may impart more force than a larger rider - although there does tend to be a correlation. The force vectors between pushes and pulls on the cranks, saddle and handlebars are what contribute to planing, so a strong rider who has a very smooth pedal stroke, and who doesn't create leverage forces on the bars to generate their power, is going to have less tendency to plane than a rider who has wide bars, holds them at the hoods or drops, and pulls on them with each pedal stroke. I also think that tire characteristics play a role in the planing phenomenon as well.

I don't have the scientific data to back these notions up, but my rudimentary familiarity with cycling and physics will leave me convinced until data from a properly constructed experiment can persuade me otherwise. I think Newton would be pleased with me.

USAZorro

Last time that happened to me, the crankarm came off.

Salamandrine 

Perhaps it should be pointed out that if by handling, we are talking about descending on twisty roads, then the CG is going to be all over the place. At least it will be if you are going fast and using good technique. Butt should be out of the saddle slightly. Shift weight rearward as you approach the apex of a turn, to maximize stopping power. Bike should be rocking beneath you; your legs and arms are the suspension. Weight may shift forward again if you jump out of the corner.

Perhaps a bit OT but I'm often shocked by the poor descending/handling skills I see these days. This is stuff that used to be learnt from other more experienced riders in your club/team.

Phamilton

There is a difference in the way my two current bikes (72/71 and 73/73) track when riding out of saddle, you know, the bike is rocking left to right a little. They don't behave the same, but I can't quantify the difference at the moment. I'll have to pay attention to 73/73 on my ride home and take 72/71 for a spin this evening to check it out and report back.

And again - man, this discussion is great. Thank you all again so much.

noglider 

I've read a lot on the discussion, and I feel I still don't have a handle on all the parameters and how they make a bike feel. It's very interesting anyway.

63rickert

To make comparisons you start by being accurate. I was about to say 650mm front center is beyond believable. Looking again at the photo maybe that yellow bike is that long. But if it is, and has the chainstays too we're headed for 43" of wheelbase. Wow. Both bikes are just really long.

Some measurements come out same reliably and other like front center and fork rake consistently produce odd numbers you have to check and check again.

Phamilton

noglider 

OK so if frame angles are what determine the difference, then your preference is for the steeper angles. But I'll bet you don't have anywhere close to identical bikes.

Phamilton

Salamandrine 

I wonder if a longer stem on the 71/72 might be more in order. My Rivendell Clem is little unruly out of the saddle when I'm on the main grips on Albatross bars. If I climb with my hands in front of the brake levers, it's much more like my road bikes. The HTA is 71.5. Might be worth experimenting with longer and shorter stems.

The general steering differences described are typical.

dddd

Try the shorter stem, even if it's just 1/2" shorter (British stems are spec'd in inches).

And use a slightly wider bar as well, which in my experience alleviates some of the out-of-saddle steering heave if the stem is still marginally too long for the headtube angle.

My 23" 1973 SuperCourse handles well with a 4-1/2" stem, forward saddle and 42cm handlebars. Good both in and out of the saddle, spirited club riding in the foothills.

No, it's not as lively as bikes with lighter weight, shorter wheelbase and steeper angles, but it handles well with no real issues other than my needing to exert some counter-steering effort to hold the inside line in heavy cornering situations.

Phamilton

Phamilton

iab

A couple of degrees? Yes, it is different, and maybe somewhat noticeable, but ride for 30 minutes, and it's all good.

I think the BB to handlebar position is where you feel it the most when riding out of the saddle. That takes more time for the body to adjust, but it does adjust.

iab

You don't move your butt fore and aft on the saddle? No riding the rivet?

And you are unable to keep your hands in one place when out of the saddle? How long of a stretch do you ride out of the saddle?

rhm

Well, I'm still working on my riding style....

Yes, I think I do move around on the saddle; but I don't think I do that very much. At any rate i probably do most of pedaling from the same position, so I try to have the saddle in the most efficient location relative to the pedals. I assume if every bike has the saddle is in the same position relative to the pedals, I'll have the same range of motion around the saddle on each bike.

And I can't estimate how much time I spend out of the saddle. A year ago I would have said "almost none," but I'm learning the benefits of getting out of the saddle and am trying to make a habit of it. Last Saturday I did a ride on my old Fuji Finest on which I was forced to climb out of the saddle for a couple long stretches. It was hard work. Dunno, five or ten minutes? I'll see if I can figure it out from Strava, it's an interesting question.

At the end of May I did a grand brevet around the DC area and after four days my butt was very tender indeed. But on more recent rides I haven't had that problem; the main difference being a conscious effort to get out of the saddle.

With that, I've raised my lowest gear; having a very low gear allows me to sit and spin, but not having such a low gear forces me to stand up more.

As for my hands, I get wicked carpal tunnel pain if I don't move hands around a lot. I don't want there to be any especially comfortable hand position, because that would make me lazy. Hence no brifters for me....

dddd

In lieu of switching to an 8cm stem, perhaps first try riding off of the saddle with hands in different locations on the bars and lever hoods. This should clarify which direction that you might want to go with stem length, and if the steering "heaves" with hands in all three positions then I would investigate whether the headset is turning with zero resistance about center (holding bike off the ground and nudging the bars slowly with one finger).

Last ride 76 

My favorite ride seems to be the one I was just on...
all are set up very similarity. And I've not been doing high speed technical descents. What I'm finding weird on my newest build is the toe overlap. It's a 93 Serotta Legend CR, and I have rubbed my toe twice, hard, at very slow speed, once doing a uturn, and creeping forward waiting for light to change. Probably has steeper angles and fork rake, than 70s/80s Italians or Ron Cooper. Going to have to change my turning and wobble radius or end up on my side.