MinnMan

So I like what I have. In fact, I love it. My oldish Felt F3 is still a dream bike, and I made it even better earlier in the year by upgrading to deep section (Light Bicycle) wheels and an Easton EC90 aerobar.

So what's the problem? The other day on a group ride we got hit by an unexpected heavy shower, and I found out just how poor the braking can be for carbon wheels with rim brakes. I have what people say is the best for these - Swissstop Black Prince pads and a graphene textured rim track, but whoa, it felt REALLY unsafe. I got home without incident. I fell back and trailed the pace line by a good distance. But I don't know what I would have done had there been any serious descents on the remains of the route.

Normally when rain is expected I just ride my other bike with good old dependable HED Ardennes wheels

Just one other guy on the ride was having the same problems. Most of the others on the ride also had carbon rims, but they either had aluminum brake tracks (e.g., HED Jets) or disc brakes.

So I spent part of this evening just gazing at this baby. I'm thinking that my partner wants me to be safe, riding dependable brakes, right?

datlas 

That’s one solution. Cheaper solution is pay attention to forecast and take your other bike if there is even a modest chance of rain. That’s what I do.

MinnMan

I do pay attention. Forecast had 10% chance of rain. If I only rode my other bike under those circumstances, I'd hardly ever ride the Felt.

Forecasts are more dependable in some locales than others. What's your % cutoff for leaving the carbon rims behind?

And I suppose if I had been riding next door in Wisconsin or in the driftless parts of Minnesota, where there are some mile-long descents, my cutoff would be more severe. But there weren't any such descents on that route.

Seattle Forrest

You have to get it. A new bike is cheaper than new teeth. Just tell them the red bar tape is too loud and you need a discount.

Are there alternate routes home where you can avoid traffic if the skies open up?

I have a set of carbon hoops. I love them. Wouldn't want to have to use different wheels every time it might rain. Of course I live in Seattle, it might rain 400 days a year. Having discs means I get to ride my nice wheels every time I get on the bike.

WhyFi

Absolutely. It's the responsible thing to do.

MinnMan

I suppose that another solution is to swap the Light Bicycle wheels for something like the HED Jet 6 pluses. They're heavier, but they otherwise seem to be great wheels. I like the LB hoops plenty, but....

I don't know if the LB wheels have much resale value. They are very popular here on BF, but not much of a name brand out there on Craigslist. I really like them when they are dry.

Wileyrat

If you can get your partner to go for a 7k bike just to get a brake upgrade, you need to post how you did it.

Until then, I guess I'll just have to ride on my old dependable Hed Ardennes wheels with Sram/Swissstop pads.

Fwiw, If I were in the market, I'd be interested in the Ultimate CF SL disc with Ultegra di2

Dean V

Just do what you did.
On the rare occasion that you get caught out in the rain and you are not comfortable with the braking in a group, simply ride off the front or back.
I have done exactly that before.

firebird854

Earlier this year (tax break season) I really wanted some deep section carbon wheels but was also afraid of the reduced breaking capability. I instead decided to take the plunge and build up a whole new bike with carbon wheels and disc brakes, the breaking is outstanding and never changes in different weather conditions (rode the breaks down -20% grades in a total downpour with 0 issues).

However, looking back, I would have rather gotten deep wheels with an aluminum break surface for my old bike, would have literally saved me thousands of dollars, but that's just my retrospective thinking. In any case, had I done that, I may have never been satisfied and always wanted full carbon wheels with disc brakes, that's life

melikebikey35

I was in the same situation a couple of months ago...unexpected downpour, and the super sketchy (i.e. non-exsistent) braking that comes with it (I was running Zipp 404's). While limping my way home, I decided that I was done having to deal with this, and that it was time to go disk. I ended up purchasing a bike a few days later.


Yes, it was a very expensive decision, but one that was 100% worth it. The performace is on another level, wet or dry, and I don't have to worry about diying just because it's raining. So, I say go, for it. And if your partner isn't cool with, then say you'll sell off your other two bike...you'll never want to ride rim-brakes again, anyways

Rides4Beer

This. Even in the dry, I'd rather ride my 22lb gravel bike with discs than my rim brake road bike. Which is why I'm getting ready to build up a disc road bike.

redlude97

This. any of the HED JET 6/Zipp 404/DA C50 will get you most of the benefit of deep wheels and the braking performance of aluminum wheels and are dirt cheap relative to a new disc bike and other fancy carbon clinchers. Here in the PNW you see a lot less full carbon rim clinchers and still lots of people running the hybrids or disc carbon since you can get caught in the rain 80% of the days regardless of the forecast it seems

Seattle Forrest

Years ago I saw a 404 rim in the trash at LBS, brake track wore out. You made an investment in keeping yours, braking in the rain is like using sandpaper on them.

MinnMan

Yes, it's the middle path between doing nothing and doing something that is sort of extreme financially. Of course, I also wouldn't have to buy such an expensive bike, but the truth is that the Felt is so great, even after all these years, that I wouldn't be enthusiastic about a new rig unless it were something very exciting. And who among us doesn't want a super bike?

I got a quote from an LBS today for the Jet 6 pluses with a Powertap G3 hub. $1700. So I'll think on it a bit. I don't know if I can justify to myself a whole new bike, and so I'll probably get different wheels for the Felt. But n+1 is such a nice thing to contemplate and those Canyons are so damned tempting.

woodcraft

Try some different pads? Toe the pads in?

I have owned & ridden 5 different carbon wheelsets, with plenty of rain riding,

and never felt unsafe or even noticed very much difference wet, dry, carbon, or alloy.

The worst braking is the CX bike w/ cantis, alloy rims and salmon pads- not great but it still stops.

smashndash

As someone who recently bought LB wheels with the grooved graphene brake track and lives in a hilly area:


Luckily (or unluckily?) it rarely rains in California... except last winter, where it rained continuously for 4 months... during race season...

yeah, I’m not going to lie. Carbon rim brakes are not the best solution in the world. The braking in the dry is modest at best. I 100% could see it being crap in the rain. If nobody in your group ride had disc brakes or alloy rim brakes, I would say you’re fine. But it’s 2019 and most groups/races will have a majority of people who have braking power than you do. The safest policy is to have the strongest brakes and the stickiest tires in every group. The more reasonable one is to be close to the average - which it sounds like you’re not.

Psychocycles

If price point is an issue, Canyon have the Ultimate CF SL Disc 8.0 Di2 for $3,700. They also have the CF SL Disc 8.0 for $2800. 7.5/7.6kg vs 6.9, yes, but also half or less the price. Also, a good portion of that weight difference is in the wheels (150g). Personally, if I were eyeing spending $1700 on a wheelset or double that on a whole new bike, it'd be an easy decision for me. N+1 all day long. SL 8.0 w/ upgraded wheels still in the $4000 range, which would be much more palatable for your significant other .

Interesting that you said you have the Black Prince brake pads - I do as well and even in the wet they GRIP my carbon wheels almost the same as in the dry (granted, after 1-1.5 seconds of nothing). Could be the different brake surface between your LB wheels and my wheels?

MinnMan

Interesting points. Regarding the Canyon, I admit I haven't really done my due diligence. If the difference is chiefly in the wheels or even the group set, then I agree that the price difference may not be warranted. But if the framesets are different, then that would matter to me. But also, my Felt is a really dreamy bike (for me), and as I said earlier, I wouldn't want to replace it with something that didn't excite me.

As to $1700 for the wheels, note that that includes a powermeter.

Hmm, maybe it's a difference in our wheels. But also yesterday I had an interesting experience that may explain some of the differences. There was no rain on the radar yesterday, but instead there was a thick mist that wet everything. The road was wet, our glasses were fogged, and the wheels were bringing up a fine spray. And the brakes worked pretty well. In contrast, in the event that precipitated the original post, it was pouring rain. I think that yesterday, there was not so much water on the rim surface, and that it dried up quickly when I applied the brakes. As you say, there was a slight delay in braking effectiveness, but the brakes worked more or less. In the earlier case, there was so much water everywhere that the rims were continually wetted, and the braking was really poor.

Psychocycles

How often do you clean the grooves in the brake pads? What I noticed about the Black Prince pads is the material gets loose very easily and gets stuck in the brake pads' grooves, which reduces the water shedding ability. I try to clean out the grooves once a week or whenever I notice there's a substantial amount of gunk in them.