NDB

I typed up a post earlier which got deleted (thanks for logging me out vBulletin) so here's one straight to the point.

• I've had a supermarket BSO for three years (Argos Cross DXT500) used on short <1mi commutes
• Looking to upgrade to a bike that is suitable for much longer trips, including offroad
• Budget is £400-£600 (possibly up to £700)

Would like:

• Front suspension
• Disc brakes preferred (deep water on flooded paths)

The bikes I'm considering so far are:

• Cannondale Quick CX 4 2020 (£499)
• Specialized Cross Trail Hydro Disc 2019 (£575)
• Trek Dual Sport 2 EQ 2020 (£575)

Looking forward to hearing your recommendations and suggestions

Skipjacks

How "Off road"

If it's not lots of bumps and tree roots and rocks....skip the front suspension. If it's just hard pack dirt without a lot of hard impacts...still skip the front suspension. If it's a seriously rocky trail with large drops that truly needs a front suspension....the spring shocks on the 3 bikes you have picked will be woefully underpowered and relatively useless. If you want to do serious off trail riding, get a real mountain bike for that riding and a rigid fork hybrid for commuting. Neither bike will be ideal for both types of riding. Each can be perfect for what it was designed for.

That said...all 3 bikes you have picked out will make a fine commuter bike. The spring shocks on them will help smooth out a bumpy road to make life easier on your hands, but will sap energy and make pedaling harder and less efficient. (I have a Crosstrail and leave the suspension locked 95% of the time. In hindsight I wish I would have gone with the rigid fork option on their low end hybrid line)

Choose based on which one just feels better riding it. There is no measure for that. You just have to decide which one feels best.

If they all feel the same...the second way to choose is by which one comes in the color you like better. Or by price.

Honestly you can't go wrong with any of those 3. If it's a short commute the suspension won't really matter.

davei1980

+1 to Skipjack's comments - suspension is only good for absorbing "big hits" …. running wider, suppler tires at lower pressures is more efficient at dampening small (and some big) bumps in the road or trail. Also, the wider tires will keep you more comfortable over your longer rides.

I am looking to buy the LWB version of this very soon for many of the reasons you listed. $95 shipping in the US but he ships worldwide (with some caveats about South Africa).

https://www.jonesbikes.com/jones-plu...plete-bicycle/


I would give this serious consideration and if you don't wind up going this route, I would suggest a rigid bike based on the 27.5+/29+ platform.

Darth Lefty 

The bikes you list are all fine. I disagree about "bad" suspension forks, I think the usual Suntour fork is good enough for this kind of bike and does provide a benefit. This is not the prevailing view on Bike Forums, though, in spite of the fact they seem to sell just fine.

Canyon makes a really nice hybrid with a better fork (and everything else) for $1100 US. But for that kind of price, I picked a proper MTB on my last purchase instead. I'm pretty happy with it.

davei1980

I have heard it said that one has to go out of his way to buy a bad bike these days!

Skipjacks

I have that Suntour fork on my bike

It has it's place. On a really rough road when my hands / arms are just tired...it can smooth things out a little bit and make a more comfortable ride. The unlock switch is close enough to the handlebars that I can disengage the lock in 1 second if I'm about to smack something hard. And it does help with comfort. But that's all it does. It keeps the hard hit from going into my hands and up my arms.

But it does not help with actual traction and road contact. If you hit something hard enough to knock you off your path or otherwise loose contact with the road, that is still going to happen with the cheap Suntour forks. A nice high end suspension fork will work more like a car's suspension, making sure your tire maintains contact with the ground so you keep traction and control during a solid hit. So for offroad riding....the Suntour fork is painfully overmatched.

Now...the flip side is that while it is an energy drain when on a smooth flat surface (or uphill...especially up hill) that can be a good thing if your purpose for riding is exercise. It will give you a better work out as it will be harder to pedal. There is something to be said for that. If you want exercise, don't get a super light ultra efficient bike. Get a heavy bike with a cheap suspension fork. It's a better work out. Your cardio will improve. You'll get stronger faster. I'm being dead serious here. This is not sarcasm. My commuter is heavy with a cheap Suntour fork. I LOVE it as a commuter. My whole purpose is exercise. It's a good work out trying to push that loaded down bike to and from work. But when I get on my trail bike that is half the weight with a rigid front fork and ride it for distance....it's like suddenly having rocket fuel in the tank. I'm suddenly stronger than the bike and can ride all day at a decent speed without wearing down.

davei1980

+1

My 1st commuter was a cheap Fuji MTB with that fork; I became increasingly disenchanted with the heft of the bike and the cheap components so I did a 180 and got a Specialized track bike - super duper light, single speed.

Now that I have a "proper" (to steal DarthLefty's adjective) commuting bike which is rigid, light, and has a range of speeds and super grippy, supple tires - I think that I am faster because of having both of the prior bikes, but for different reasons. No real data to back this up other than my Fitbit commute times.

I am intrigued by Jones LWB with the 29x2.8" smooth tires though - it's supposed to be a low-rolling resistance hot rod which is also single-track capable. I used to have many bikes for different purposes and I became disenchanted with that as well. I like having one do it all bike, which seems to be the direction the OP is headed!

Darth Lefty 

I once thought all those same things and I'm sure with a little digging you could find examples of me writing them out in a thread like this.

NDB

By "off road" I'm definitely not talking about full-on trails . Mainly gravel paths, really badly chipped up roads & sidewalks (daily), and woodland over tree roots and the like. I haven't ridden a real bike (non BSO) without front suspension, so I don't know how comfortable it is (I tried a BSO without front suspension and it was horrible - that bike ride ended within a matter of minutes).

A test ride is probably the easiest way for me to figure out whether I'd benefit from front susp or not

davei1980

I am sure you could piece together a map of how all of our thoughts around cycling have evolved by piecing together old posts... where's that Jim guy who's deft at making nested quotes? He would be brilliant at this!

Example - I began commuting on a MTB/hardtail because that's the last bike I had before I quit riding and got back in -> Went to a S/S track bike for the lightness and ease of maintenance/reliability -> now on a CX bike with fenders and flat bars - good compromise between the two and faster than both -> thinking of getting a 29+ Jones LWB so that I have a truly versatile, do it all bike that I can ride for hours and hours.

davei1980

You gave us 3 discrete options; if these are what you have it narrowed down to then yes, it will come down to a test ride. All three are SUPER reputable manufacturers and at similar price points should have similar components. It's going to come down to the dealer you like best (not a frivolous thing at all!) and which one RIDES and FITS the best (the most important!)

That said, I would highly recommend testing out some 27.5+/29+ rigid bikes with smooth tires (lite gravel type tire, etc) - I think you'll really like it and I don't think you need a suspension fork, based on your description of your intended use - the fork will cost more, give you a weight penalty, and degrade the handling compared to a rigid specific fork.

I recently test rode a Jones LWB in Oregon and LOVED it. Best bike I've ridden hand's down. You don't have that option because you don't live near Oregon but there should be a decent analogue for you nearby to at least get the sense of what a plus-platform, rigid-specific frame feels like. I think that's what you're after.

If you're still married to the 3 bikes listed, I think that's great also because I highly respect what they're doing in the industry as well. Happy riding!

Darth Lefty 

Here's where my head's at now. Subject to change.

1. If you find yourself looking at a bike that is halfway between a fitness bike and a MTB, pick one or the other. Half measures here are dumb.
2. If you get a MTB you should get one with an air fork and adjustable rebound damping and tubeless ready rims and 1x drivetrain and a dropper post, or at least frame cable routing for a dropper post. This category has long been thought of as the "$1000" bike but will now cost more, especially with 12-speed and a dropper. They're really good, though! Example, Trek X-Caliber/Roscoe family. If you only have Marlin money, that's ok, but you are missing out on some good stuff.
3. If you have a bike with a spring-only fork, top out the preload. The fork won't move unless you hit something.
4. If you get a bike with a lockout, leave it WFO and ignore it. It's solving a fake problem. If you have the cheap bike, see #3 . If you have the "$1000" bike the rebound damping will keep the front from moving around much. I know it's hard to think of damping saving you energy but it's true, really! The only time I notice mine moving is when sprinting or climbing out of the saddle.
5. Don't worry about the weight of the suspension fork. It's about +3 pounds vs not. If you were really worried about weight, this is not the kind of bike you'd be shopping.
6. MTB's are more fun. Not-MTB's are way faster.

Phamilton

Buy a used 700c rigid hybrid like a Trek Multitrack for $100 and build it the way you want with the savings. You don’t need disc brakes.

subgrade

I agree with all of the above. If your suspension fork is bobbing when just pedalling along it is woefully undersprung WRT your weight and will probably bottom out with every bigger hit. I occasionally do lock out the fork, but I tend to think the improved efficiency is largely a imagined one.

One other thing which I don't see mentioned often (if at all) by the proponents of wider tires at lower pressures for smoothing out the ride: if you run the tires at pressures low enough to substitute for a short travel suspension fork, you get lots of rolling resistance on smooth, hard pavement (worth 1-2kph). And that resistance is there all the time, unless you get off and change the tire pressure each time the riding surface changes.

cyccommute 

I fully agree. Don't be caught in the trap of a hybrid "that does everything" but just doesn't do most anything all that well.

While I agree on the air fork, I disagree on the rest of your list for a mountain bike. I've been riding mountain bikes since the mid80s and never really found the need for a dropper post or even a quick release seat collar. 1x gearing may be good for some rides but if you range further, you soon find it's limitations. You can have a good gear for climbing or a good gear for cruising but you can't have both. Multi-geared cranks...even just a double...offer a wider range and are more useful if you are riding more than just loops around your average single track.

I often use my mountain bikes for commuting and I look for places to ride them along the way. I also end up riding pavement for a significant part of the ride and having the ability to ride at up to 30 mph on some paved downhills beats coasting down them all the time.

I will agree that the "$1000 mountain bike" is now closer to $3000 but most of those bikes won't make good commuters...they don't have anywhere to attach the stuff you need for commuting


Kind of defeats the purpose of the shock. It would be better to get a stiffer spring in the fork if possible or just stick with an air fork.

I use my lockout all the time. When riding smooth pavement, I lock it and just before I tear off into the woods, I open it up. Most suspension forks with a lockout have enough give in them to work over the small bumps that are encountered on smooth pavement but if the fork is meant to be compliant enough to be used off-road, it will be too active for pedaling on smooth surfaces...i.e. it will pogo. That's never fun nor is it energy efficient.

The best lockouts I've used are on Fox and Manitou forks. The lockout is solid enough for out of the saddle sprints on pavement without a lot of movement. Rock Shox, on the other hand, have lockouts that can barely be called damping adjusters. Even with air pressure cranked up and any loading turned all the way up, the Rock Shox I've used still feel like they are full open. Even sending one to Push to have it revalved did nothing to improve it.


Agreed.

If you are riding on over roots and "the like", you are mountain biking. You don't have to be climbing mountains to "mountain bike". Some of the toughest mountain biking I've done was on New England trails that didn't have the altitude of Colorado's mountains but they sure had attitude far in excess of their stature.

It really does sound like you are looking more for a mountain bike than a road bike. Perhaps you should try demoing a mountain bike at a local shop or finding someone who might be willing to loan you a good mountain bike. You might even be able to rent one at some nearby resort. This is not the best season to do that because most resorts are gearing up for skiing but you might hold off until next spring. On the other hand, if you have a resort nearby, they might be trying to get rid of this year's inventory.

davei1980

Not totally true - bike tires aren't like car tires and the energy spent in deforming the casing is pretty minimal and is far outweighed by the vibration dampening improvements which improve efficiency. The wider the tire, the less energy wasted because, at lower pressures, the contact patch is wide but not very long compared to a narrow tire at the same pressure. In other words, the wider the tire, the longer in it's rotation it can stay "round"

Darth Lefty 

The genius of the proliferation in the bike industry is that no matter your preferences, they have something to sell you. Surly has two builds on both the KM and Krampus, one with a suspension fork and dropper, one full rigid. You can put 33 speed on anything if that's what you want... or single speed.

I chose my bike based on its ability to run commuter-stuff but also be upgraded with pure MTB hardware, anticipating my needs would change over time as my kids age out of trailer and kid seats.

cyccommute 

A few years ago that may have been true but no longer. Thanks to a product designer at SRAM who hates front derailers, we no longer have that many choices. Thanks to a bunch of Shimano engineers who don’t understand gearing, we don’t have that many choices. Shimano, in particular, has been limiting our choices for several decades.

My bikes are chosen for the same reasons. I just don’t see 1x systems being conducive to commuting. Yes, they are simple but I also think that they are simplistic. I read something by that SRAM engineer a few years ago. He said that changing the ring on a 1x complete changes the character of the ride and the bike. I fully agree. I carry a little device on my bike that allows me to do just that. I can change from one front gear to another and completely change the way the bike rides

davei1980

I think Sheldon Brown put like a 7sp (could be wrong) on a Sturmey-Archer 3 speed hub with a triple crankset for a total of 63 speeds! I could be wrong on the details but I know he did something similar.

I don't disagree with you but 1x drivetrains have come a long way.

I understand (and correct me if I am mistaken) but in order to shift a 2x setup properly (properly, meaning each successive shift has the minimum increase in gear ratio) you need to execute "double shifts" whereby you're shifting the FD and RD simultaneously.... is this correct? If so, I am no where NEAR a good enough rider to be able to take advantage and I am probably one that's better off with a 1x drivetrain (baby steps now, I was on a single speed for 2 years! Those have their place in this world as well!)

If this is true, then does your shifting pattern change drastically for triples or do you ride those like I used to on my 1999 MTB whereby I rode on the middle ring most of the time, used the small ring as a bailout option, and the big ring so that I didn't spin out downhill???

Tombaatar

Speaking from my own experience I did not like commuting on a mountain bike. I had put panniers on to carry the load and the front forks made for a very unsteady ride for me. i would recommend a rigid fork, panniers. 36-42 mm tires and ~45 psi.

davei1980

+1 all day - I don't have panniers but also didn't love suspension fork commuting.

subgrade

But I wasn't talking about vibration damping - like on chipseal or relatively smooth gravel. I'm talking about things like shallow potholes, railroad crossings, crappy patchwork, cobbles etc. - minor obstacles 1-3cm in height, which are smoothed out by short travel forks. You would have to run pretty low pressures to let the tires take care of those. Which works well enough offroad, where the surface is uneven pretty much all the time and mostly not very hard. But riding on crappy asphalt, i.e. hard surface with occasional jolts, is a totally different story.

For example, I have 38mm tires on my bike; combined weight of me and the bike close to 100kg/220lbs. To have plush ride on city streets which are like described above, I'd have to run the tires @ 35psi (going lower, pinch flats become a real threat). Raising the pressure to 55-60 psi gives me the aforementioned 1-2 kph, but each joint, patch etc. becomes way more pronounced - and that is where suspension fork comes in. This is my experience, not just theory.

Darth Lefty 

That's true on a MTB or hybrid/trekking triple system, with trigger shifters. On a 2x10 or 2x11 road system the idea is to give you two passes through the "corn cob," once with the big ring and once with the small ring.

davei1980

Are the roads relatively good or poor in Latvia?

Darth Lefty 

If I had a longer ride, and only roads to ride on, I'd be right there with you.