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Ran right into the side of this guys minivan,,,

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Old 08-12-12, 06:46 PM
  #51  
CB HI
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Originally Posted by howeeee
You need to quit, many of these sidewalks were way before the ADA lol,,there are streets not far from me,,in the afluent neighborhoods near and where Romney grew up. In recent years they put these beautiful sidewalks in,,they are among million dollar houses,,and they run up and down these hills that go up and down like 20 to 30 feet. They are so much fun to ride on,,every entrance has a driveway,,nobody in there right mind would take a wheel chair , electric or otherwise on them the person in the wheel chair would get killed lmao,,why do you think there a driveways at the entranced from every street and ever driveway Einstien?

By the way ADA was passed in 1990 my neighborhood was built in 1966 lol with driveways entering the sidewalk lmao
Yeah, I did not think you would learn anything.
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Old 08-12-12, 07:01 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by NOS88
The thing is you're not a pedestrian. You were a moving vehicle in the wrong place.
Just because you feel that someone shouldn't be riding on a sidwalk doesn't mean that it's against the law...

In Oregon, Attorney Ray Thomas (the guy who was on the team that won $99 Million for the widow of a smoker (Philip Morris USA v. Williams)) has a few things to say about this subject here in Oregon.

Bicyclists Must Mix with Pedestrians on Sidewalks
A safety education effort, complete with posters containing bicycles with
daisies for wheels, free bells and a series of upbeat Burma Shave*like
posters (“don’t be a silent passer”), was staged on Portland’s Hawthorne
Bridge by PBOT, the Community Cycling Center, the BTA, Shift, and
Green Empowerment. Swanson, Thomas & Coon’s Margaret Weddell led
a law*office team and Jay Graves from Bike Gallery donated free handle*
bar bells to passing bicyclists. Underneath the positive energy contained
in this project was the recognition by participants and many pedestrians
that bicyclists must take special care when riding on the sidewalks to
avoid endangering persons on foot.
One problem is that bicyclists travel so much faster than pedestrians and
require considerably greater distance to turn and stop. When bicycle
traffic is constricted, such as on bridges and other multi*use paths, the
inevitable congestion magnifies the impact of the small steering or control
mistakes that lead to occasional collisions.
Historically, many villages and cities have identified their highest areas of
pedestrian density and declared them off limits to bicycles. In Portland,
the area within SW Jefferson Street, Naito Parkway, NW Hoyt Street and
13th Avenue are off limits to bicycles except in the Park Blocks and on
SW Salmon Street, on bridges and multi*use paths. However, the maxi*
mum fine of $500.00, the fact that there are no warning signs defining the
boundaries of prohibited areas, and almost universal ignorance and
disregard of the law, create an uncertain environment for everyone that
guarantees selective and uneven enforcement.
While New York City prohibits sidewalk bicyclists over 14 years of age,
a new law includes a pedestrian*endangerment provision backed by a
$300.00 fine or 20 days in jail and bike impoundment. Physical contact
with a pedestrian results in a $600.00 fine or 20 days imprisonment and
bike impoundment. While protecting pedestrians from injuries is a
Part I: Bicycle Laws14
laudable goal, in an average year in a huge metropolitan area like New
York City, bicycles kill no pedestrians and injure fewer than 200. In the
same average year motor vehicles kill 200 pedestrians and injure 11,000.
Clearly, the safety hazard associated with bicyclists on sidewalks is more
of an annoyance than a high*level, life*threatening risk, at least when
compared to motor vehicle/pedestrian hazards.
The law is clear
The law is clear that pedestrians have the right of way on sidewalks and
that bicyclists must provide an audible signal when they pass persons
on foot. To obtain the same right*of*way over motorized vehicles as
pedestrians, bicyclists are limited by the traffic code to “no greater than a
walking speed” when passing in front of driveways or entry ways and on
crosswalks. Pedestrians, of course, also have the right*of*way in marked or
unmarked cross walks and on sidewalks over any motorized vehicle.
One problem area is that bicyclists on the roadway sometimes fail to yield
to pedestrians attempting to cross roadways in marked and unmarked
crosswalks. ORS 811.020 prohibits passing a vehicle stopped at a cross*
walk for a pedestrian, but bicyclists frequently disregard this provision
(to the consternation of some pedestrians). Further, bicyclists sometimes
act as if they believe they are on a higher moral plane than other vehicles
and therefore do not really have to stop for pedestrians. Other riders
demon strate their trick riding skills by weaving around clusters of
alarmed pedestrians. The Oregon Traffic Code prohibits such behavior.
ORS 814.410, “Unsafe Operation of Bicycle On Sidewalk,” is violated if
a person “[O]perates a bicycle on a sidewalk in a careless manner that
endangers or would be likely to endanger any person or property,” creating
an offense with similar operational language to the better known “Care*
less Driving offense”.
Additional resources
The websites for Oregon Cycling (www.oregoncycling.org) and Swanson,
Thomas & Coon (www.stc*law.com) each contain references to the book
“Pedal Power” and its collection of Oregon statutes. In addition, Part
Three of “Pedal Power” collects the city ordinances regulating bicycle
operation on sidewalks in about 20 Oregon cities.
Conclusion
When bicyclists follow the rules, sidewalk bicycle riding can be safe.
However, bicyclists sometimes save their worst behavior for the sidewalks
and ignore sidewalk riding prohibitions. When bicyclists yield to pedes*
trians and give an audible signal when passing, the whole mix goes a lot
more smoothly and the sidewalk provides an important artery for non*
motorized travel.
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Old 08-12-12, 07:11 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by K'Tesh
Just because you feel that someone shouldn't be riding on a sidwalk doesn't mean that it's against the law...

In Oregon, Attorney Ray Thomas (the guy who was on the team that won $99 Million for the widow of a smoker (Philip Morris USA v. Williams)) has a few things to say about this subject here in Oregon.
Yes of course, I dont know how it is in other states,,but here in Michigan pedestrians and bikes have been sharing the sidewalks for at least as long as I have been riding a bike 55 years. Hard to tell some of these close minded hard heads on this list, but thats the way of life here in Michigan. Michigan is a big bike state too.
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Old 08-12-12, 08:04 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by GrandaddyBiker
No one has answered this question by I-Like-To-Bike. I would like to know the answer to that question myself.

I thought that Georgia had a statewide ban but I found out that was not correct.

The poster of msg #13 implied that some states had a statewide ban when he wrote, "I am glad you aren't hurt but are you allowed to ride on the sidewalk in your state?"

I believe he was confusing his belief in Vehicular Cycling gospel about sideWALK™ cycling with law. He is hardly alone in that assumption, witness the other VC disciples on this thread and numerous others who swear that if not against the law sideWALKs™ should be verboten to all cyclists at all times because these VC experts can't get around the concept that anyone has different requirements than their own.
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Old 08-13-12, 05:18 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by howeeee
So Michigan law posted supports my point of view. You have to remember growing up in Michigan you are told from the time you learn to ride a bike,,the safest place is the sidewalk..
I grew up - not quite 55 years ago - in some of the neighborhoods in and around Detroit, and learned to ride on the road. I was never taught 'the safest place to be is the sidewalk'.

However, Michigan does seem to have a disappointing number of sidewalk cyclists - i chalk it up to the relative lack of roadway planning for bicyclists in cities in michigan. The problem in Michigan is systemic, not education based. But proper education about bicycle traffic couldn't hurt....

i have to ask the very popular A&S question - where was it? What are the road way conditions where this occured. give the forum some more fodder on the incident.

Last edited by Bekologist; 08-13-12 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 08-13-12, 09:17 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
The poster of msg #13 implied that some states had a statewide ban when he wrote, "I am glad you aren't hurt but are you allowed to ride on the sidewalk in your state?"

I believe he was confusing his belief in Vehicular Cycling gospel about sideWALK™ cycling with law. He is hardly alone in that assumption, witness the other VC disciples on this thread and numerous others who swear that if not against the law sideWALKs™ should be verboten to all cyclists at all times because these VC experts can't get around the concept that anyone has different requirements than their own.
I'm actually surprised that there are states that allow sidewalk cycling. As far as I know, it's illegal in all of Canada.
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Old 08-13-12, 10:02 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by howeeee
No you guys dont know the laws,,he ran the stop sign,,pedestrians have the right away at these crosswalks,,the pedestrians dont have a stop sign. The guy was real nice,,he felt bad,,he knew he ran the stop the sign. I showed some concern about his van and he said I am not worried about my van only about you. I only banged my hand..today is the next day and my hand is almost better.

It is no different than the car that runs the stop sign at a 2 way stop and the car without a stop sign runs into the side of him,,,same thing,,,the guy that ran the stop sign is at fault. Michigan is a no fault state anyway but you could still get a ticket,,if the police were called he would of got a ticket, there was one witness and the guy wasnt denying he ran the stop sign.
The problem is that you're NOT a pedestrian. You are operating a VEHICLE. Even if it's legal to ride on the sidewalk where you live. This shows why it's dangerous to do so.
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Old 08-13-12, 10:10 AM
  #58  
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Regardless of the legal aspects of this thread, I strongly encourage the original poster to get his brakes in good working order. This will probably require new cables, housings and pads, and a little time getting the adjustment right. It will not be expensive and could save your life one day.
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Old 08-13-12, 10:11 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by mapeiboy
I believe it is against the law to block any sidewalk by a vehicle . It is the responsibility of the driver to make sure his/her vehicle does not block the sidewalk .
Really, then how are people suppose to stop at red lights and stop signs without blocking the sidewalk? As not all traffic control devices have their stop line before the sidewalk.
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Old 08-13-12, 10:25 AM
  #60  
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In my part of Michigan, (Detroit Area) many stop signs are after the sidewalk (on side streets entering major streets.) The same thing happened to me many years ago. I ran in to someones rear fender when he stopped at the stop sign. I was going too fast to stop. It was my fault, pure and simple.
Either way, if the cars stop before the sidewalk, many times they can't see if it's safe to enter the main road. Trees and bushes and such block the view. So even if the stop sign is before the sidewalk, 90% of the cars stop at the point that they can see traffic.
Now that I'm older, I still occasionally ride on the sidewalk. (Traffic here sucks!) but I'm aware that crosswalks over side streets are much more dangerous than major intersections. And if I get hit by a car (or I hit one) it doesn't really matter what is legal, I will most likely receive the majority of the damage!
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Old 08-13-12, 10:30 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by howeeee
So Michigan law posted supports my point of view. You have to remember growing up in Michigan you are told from the time you learn to ride a bike,,the safest place is the sidewalk. I grew up in a suburb of Detroit called Oak Park. If you were caught by the police riding a bike in the street while you were not yet 12 they would write you a citation,,that you had to get signed by your parents and send it in. I had about 10 by the time I was 12 and had about 6 more from riding double on a bike lol.

There are about 5.5 million people in and around detroit, it is one of the most populated area's in the country. Most people live in middle or lower middlclass areas. Most suburbs have sidewalks at entrance of every side walk is a driveway not a curb. Those driveways are meant for bikes. We are conditioned from young to share the sidewalks with bikes and pedestrians. Like the law says for all law purposes a bike is the same as a pedestrian when on the sidewalk,,just as i said.

Anyway it is interesting to me how different these things are in different parts of the country.
That one is "safer" on the sidewalk is a myth. As has been noted, motorists are NOT looking for higher speed traffic on the sidewalk.

From this post, and your earlier post where you were "laughing every other word." It is clear at least to me that you don't have much respect for anyone else on the road/sidewalk.

The sidewalk is NOT a part of the road, NOR is it your "private racetrack."

If you are riding on the sidewalk you NEED to slow down to walking speed, and to be prepared to stop suddenly for cars crossing your path.

Also the driver of the can may have broken the law, but so did you. As there is a little thing called the Doctrine of last clear chance. In short, it means that even if the other person brakes the law and YOU have the chance/opportunity to avoid a crash that YOU are obligated to do so.

So YOU, and NOT the motorist is the one who got lucky.
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Old 08-13-12, 10:46 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by howeeee
Originally Posted by tsl
Yes, but you misunderstand the laws as well.

Pedestrians are people who are walking or running. Feet on the ground equals pedestrian.

As soon as you put wheels underneath you--whether a bicycle or skates, whether on the road or on the sidewalk--you become a vehicle in the eyes of the law. You become a human-powered vehicle. You are no longer a pedestrian.

Therefore, you don't have the same rights as a pedestrian at crosswalks, or anywhere else for that matter. But at the same time, you acquire all the rights (and responsibilities) given to all vehicles. That's also why bicyclists and skaters must yield to pedestrians.

It's immaterial in this case if I understand the circumstances correctly, but it's something to remember. Feet are pedestrians, bicyclists are vehicles.

The only time a bicyclist becomes a pedestrian is when they dismount and walk the bike. This is why children are taught to dismount and walk their bikes across intersections. It's to temporarily regain their pedestrian status.
you need to go back in the thread and look at the Michigan law that was posted,,anyone on a bike,,on a sidewalk has the same rights and obligations as a pedestrian,,,how many times are we gonna go over the same thing?
That doesn't make you a pedestrian. You are still operating a vehicle, why don't YOU get that?
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Old 08-13-12, 10:55 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by howeeee
Originally Posted by gecho
Those are intended to improve wheelchair accessibility to the sidewalks, not specifically for the benefit of cyclists.
That is wrong bicycling is in mind in the design and planing,,you can for sure see that with the design and planning of the River Walk in Downtown Detroit..My guess is those driveways are used by bicycles to wheelchairs at about a million to one. I think the designers keep that mind lol Your wheelchair contention is beyond silly
With all of your laughing, you sound like a very mature individual. As for whatever reason, you seem to think that it is very funny that you caused damage to another persons property.
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Old 08-13-12, 11:01 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy
The problem is that you're NOT a pedestrian. You are operating a VEHICLE. Even if it's legal to ride on the sidewalk where you live. This shows why it's dangerous to do so.
We are like going around in circles here,,you guys are posting the same things over,,so I guess I should respond again,,Michigan law states that a bicyclist has the same rights and responsibilities as a pedestrian
when on a sidewalk,,in essence making the bicyclist the same as a pedestrian in terms of legality and what is expected by an operator of an automobile in terms of how a pedestrian is to be treated. Go read the law,,and stop posting the same things over and over. It is getting old.
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Old 08-13-12, 11:15 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by howeeee
Originally Posted by CB HI
Do a little research on ADA laws and legal actions, and you just might learn something.
You need to quit, many of these sidewalks were way before the ADA lol,,there are streets not far from me,,in the afluent neighborhoods near and where Romney grew up. In recent years they put these beautiful sidewalks in,,they are among million dollar houses,,and they run up and down these hills that go up and down like 20 to 30 feet. They are so much fun to ride on,,every entrance has a driveway,,nobody in there right mind would take a wheel chair , electric or otherwise on them the person in the wheel chair would get killed lmao,,why do you think there a driveways at the entranced from every street and ever driveway Einstien?

By the way ADA was passed in 1990 my neighborhood was built in 1966 lol with driveways entering the sidewalk lmao
Okay, I have to ask you. In this context, just what the hell are you calling a "driveway?" Can you please take and post a picture of these "driveways?"

Just because something predates the ADA doesn't make it right. Cities are if I'm not mistaken to bring their various infrastructure into ADA compliance.

And again you are coming across as a very immature person.
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Old 08-13-12, 11:50 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by howeeee
Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy
The problem is that you're NOT a pedestrian. You are operating a VEHICLE. Even if it's legal to ride on the sidewalk where you live. This shows why it's dangerous to do so.
We are like going around in circles here,,you guys are posting the same things over,,so I guess I should respond again,,Michigan law states that a bicyclist has the same rights and responsibilities as a pedestrian
when on a sidewalk,,in essence making the bicyclist the same as a pedestrian in terms of legality and what is expected by an operator of an automobile in terms of how a pedestrian is to be treated. Go read the law,,and stop posting the same things over and over. It is getting old.
Florida has similar langue in it's law. What you don't seems to get for whatever reason is that you are still operating a VEHICLE, and that when you are RIDING a bicycle you are NOT a pedestrian.

No matter how many times you misread, and misinterpret Michigan law, when you are riding your bike on the sidewalk you are NOT a pedestrian. And it is because of "cyclists" like you that cyclists have a bad name.
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Old 08-13-12, 11:59 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by howeeee
We are like going around in circles here,,you guys are posting the same things over,,so I guess I should respond again,,Michigan law states that a bicyclist has the same rights and responsibilities as a pedestrian
when on a sidewalk,,in essence making the bicyclist the same as a pedestrian in terms of legality and what is expected by an operator of an automobile in terms of how a pedestrian is to be treated. Go read the law,,and stop posting the same things over and over. It is getting old.
But I think you are missing the point.. That the bicyclist when riding on the sidewalk also has to behave like a pedestrian when crossing the street, You know, like getting off the bike and walking across the intersection...
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Old 08-13-12, 12:32 PM
  #68  
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He just doesn't get it. He wants to have it both ways. He wants to ride a bike and he wants to be a pedestrian at the same time. Which is something that everyone else here knows to be physically impossible. One is either riding a bicycle, or one is a pedestrian. One cannot be both.

I would also suggest to the OP that he consult with a Michigan lawyer as to what the law really says and means. But I would not surprise me that when he's told something that contradicts his world view that he'll still say that his interpretation is correct.

Originally Posted by 350htrr
Originally Posted by howeeee
We are like going around in circles here,,you guys are posting the same things over,,so I guess I should respond again,,Michigan law states that a bicyclist has the same rights and responsibilities as a pedestrian
when on a sidewalk,,in essence making the bicyclist the same as a pedestrian in terms of legality and what is expected by an operator of an automobile in terms of how a pedestrian is to be treated. Go read the law,,and stop posting the same things over and over. It is getting old.
But I think you are missing the point.. That the bicyclist when riding on the sidewalk also has to behave like a pedestrian when crossing the street, You know, like getting off the bike and walking across the intersection...
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Old 08-13-12, 12:49 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155
Maybe if you clarify. Was it a 4 way stop? Or was it a T intersection and he rolled accross the sidewalk? Did you hit him in the intersection or while on the sidewalk? What some of us picture is the driver didn't stop behind the crosswalk and you t-boned him when you didn't stop before riding into the crosswalk. It is just hard to imagine how you could have gotten enough steam up to hit him after stopping yourself.
I would like the OP to answer this. I cannot figure out how the OP T boned the van and yet somehow thinks he isn't at fault.
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Old 08-13-12, 01:22 PM
  #70  
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I would like to know this as well. As the Doctrine of last clear chance, makes it clear that he had an obligation NOT to crash into the side of the can.

Originally Posted by slowandsteady
Originally Posted by Mobile 155
Maybe if you clarify. Was it a 4 way stop? Or was it a T intersection and he rolled accross the sidewalk? Did you hit him in the intersection or while on the sidewalk? What some of us picture is the driver didn't stop behind the crosswalk and you t-boned him when you didn't stop before riding into the crosswalk. It is just hard to imagine how you could have gotten enough steam up to hit him after stopping yourself.
I would like the OP to answer this. I cannot figure out how the OP T boned the van and yet somehow thinks he isn't at fault.
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Old 08-13-12, 01:37 PM
  #71  
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The fault was with the motorist who did not stop at the stop sign and ensure the sidewalk was clear before proceeding.

Where legal to ride on sidewalk, a cyclist does not have to dismount to have the rights of a pedestrian when crossing a crosswalk. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=en&as_sdt=2,3

Sidewalk cycling is known to be hazardous, in part because of this known conflict.

I am a very strong proponent of not riding on the sidewalk, but if one does, that does not make the sidewalk cyclist automatically legally at fault for any incident.
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Old 08-13-12, 01:54 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
The fault was with the motorist who did not stop at the stop sign and ensure the sidewalk was clear before proceeding.

Where legal to ride on sidewalk, a cyclist does not have to dismount to have the rights of a pedestrian when crossing a crosswalk. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=en&as_sdt=2,3

Sidewalk cycling is known to be hazardous, in part because of this known conflict.

I am a very strong proponent of not riding on the sidewalk, but if one does, that does not make the sidewalk cyclist automatically legally at fault for any incident.

I don't know about you, but the stop signs are posted after the sidewalks. If the van hit the cyclist then I could see how maybe the van is at fault, but the cyclist hit the van. That would mean that the van was already in the roadway and past the sidewalk BEFORE the cyclist entered the roadway.
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Old 08-13-12, 02:12 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by slowandsteady
I don't know about you, but the stop signs are posted after the sidewalks. If the van hit the cyclist then I could see how maybe the van is at fault, but the cyclist hit the van. That would mean that the van was already in the roadway and past the sidewalk BEFORE the cyclist entered the roadway.
The motorist is required to stop before the cross walk if the stop sign or line is after the cross walk.

"B. A driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is no crosswalk, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, or if there is no line, shall stop at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering the intersection except when directed to proceed by a police officer."

edit: The OP states/implies that the stop line was before the crosswalk.

Last edited by noisebeam; 08-13-12 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 08-13-12, 02:13 PM
  #74  
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Bottom line from my point of view is... I don't really care if the law ACTUALLY says or doesn't that a cyclist must dismount (my common sense does) while crossing a street on a sidewalk crossing pretending to be a pedestrian and use the advantages of a pedestrian, the law is an ass... Any cyclist who rides through a street pretending to be a pedestrian is upping the risk of an "accident" as most drivers seem to have a blind-spot when it comes to bicycle riders in general and when riding the bike against the flow of traffic you are going to get hurt more often... JMO no facts to add, just my observations on how pedestrians, bikes, cars don't necessarily intermingle that well...
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Old 08-13-12, 02:18 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
Bottom line from my point of view is... I don't really care if the law ACTUALLY says or doesn't that a cyclist must dismount (my common sense does) while crossing a street on a sidewalk crossing pretending to be a pedestrian and use the advantages of a pedestrian, the law is an ass... Any cyclist who rides through a street pretending to be a pedestrian is upping the risk of an "accident" as most drivers seem to have a blind-spot when it comes to bicycle riders in general and when riding the bike against the flow of traffic you are going to get hurt more often... JMO no facts to add, just my observations on how pedestrians, bikes, cars don't necessarily intermingle that well...
The cyclist may have been ignorant or unconcerned with the hazard, but it was the motorist who did not stop at the stop sign ahead of the crosswalk that the cyclist was immediately and legally entering.
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