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Seller refuses to open box

Old 05-18-20, 10:20 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
“Red Snapper. VERY tasty.”
I only got this reference with assistance, thanks be to Google.
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Old 05-18-20, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
If it were a first-generation Campagnolo Super Record RD in the sealed box, I wouldn't sell it to anyone I suspected of wanting to open the box. It should stay sealed.
I'm confused--are you saying you wouldn't sell such a derailleur to someone who'd actually be inclined to using it?
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Old 05-18-20, 10:58 AM
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I remember buying a new replacement thumb shifter that had the exact same replacement part number as the original one that broke. The original one had a black face and the replacement was sliver. LBS told me they stopped making the black one. Had the same thing happen recently on a lamp lense for an automobile.

Given the buyer is aware of different variations of this lever, I think seeing the actual item is a perfectly reasonable request. Of course, the seller is entitled to keep the box sealed.

I'm not on board with the advice to just buy it and return it if it's not right. It might not be the precise variation the buyer is looking for even though it is accurately listed. If everything in the listing is accurate, the seller does not have to accept this return (listing states no returns accepted). If the seller were to accept the return, the buyer would likely have to pay for the shipping.

As a buyer wondering if this is the exact item I'm looking for, I'd move on.
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Old 05-18-20, 11:21 AM
  #54  
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I never thought I would see the day when cheap Dia Compe brake levers would command this much attention.

But, when the pandemic hit, I was forced to use my collection of unopened Chiffon toilet paper. It was tough watching those colors and patterns swirl down the drain.

John
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Old 05-18-20, 11:23 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
“Red Snapper. VERY tasty.”
Man, I was wondering when someone was going to reference UHF. Great movie.

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Old 05-18-20, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by countalmaviva View Post
OK, what if this wasn't a cheap Japanese brake lever from the 90s for $20?

What if, borrowing an above example, it was a first gen Campy Super Record RD in a sealed box from 1973? Let's imagine there's some detail not elaborated on the box. Maybe a Campy fan can provide an example...maybe Tullio put some in the tumbler with the balls and some he didn't, so the finish is different.

If you were the seller, would you open this box to be able to tell buyers about the item? Or, would the high value make it even more important to keep the box sealed?

Cheers,
Oliver H.
If I were the seller of anything and a prospective buyer wanted me to do something I'd prefer not to do; I simply wouldn't. Pretty simple: no or yes. Buyer has same options.
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Old 05-18-20, 12:12 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Piff View Post
I'm confused--are you saying you wouldn't sell such a derailleur to someone who'd actually be inclined to using it?
Yeah, there are plenty for sale in great condition out of the box already. Of course anyone can tear open a box of anything that they buy, whether it's a rare Star Wars toy or a rare derailleur - that's their prerogative. But that's one less still in the box - you can't put them back. So I'd suggest looking for a nice one that's already unboxed for use, yes!

-Gregory
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Old 05-18-20, 12:21 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by countalmaviva View Post
OK, what if this wasn't a cheap Japanese brake lever from the 90s for $20?

What if, borrowing an above example, it was a first gen Campy Super Record RD in a sealed box from 1973? Let's imagine there's some detail not elaborated on the box. Maybe a Campy fan can provide an example...maybe Tullio put some in the tumbler with the balls and some he didn't, so the finish is different.

If you were the seller, would you open this box to be able to tell buyers about the item? Or, would the high value make it even more important to keep the box sealed?

Cheers,
Oliver H.
Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
If it were a first-generation Campagnolo Super Record RD in the sealed box, I wouldn't sell it to anyone I suspected of wanting to open the box. It should stay sealed.

Some vintage things are worth more in the box - look at collectible toys, for example. The rarest of the rare NOS bicycle parts count among those objects. I don't personally think these Dia-Compe levers are worth more in the box because they are nothing special, but since they are new in the box and advertised as such, I do agree that it might seem unreasonable to ask to remove them prior to the time of sale.

-Gregory
Oh, my favorite past time... sitting around drooling over crusty old cardboard boxes... and imagining they don't have a brick inside.

And, say it was for $1000+... I'd have to be 100% certain the date code that the seller claimed was what was actually in the box.

Are Campagnolo derailleur pulleys Schrödinger's pulleys... they are both cracked and not cracked until one actually opens the box?
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Old 05-18-20, 12:25 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by mkeller234 View Post
SS-5 appears to be black... based on google images. Take that for what it's worth.
So, would SS-5S be "silver"?

Are there differences in lever design, and the place where the lever attaches to the pivot?
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Old 05-18-20, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by plonz View Post
I remember buying a new replacement thumb shifter that had the exact same replacement part number as the original one that broke. The original one had a black face and the replacement was sliver. LBS told me they stopped making the black one. Had the same thing happen recently on a lamp lense for an automobile.

Given the buyer is aware of different variations of this lever, I think seeing the actual item is a perfectly reasonable request. Of course, the seller is entitled to keep the box sealed.

I'm not on board with the advice to just buy it and return it if it's not right. It might not be the precise variation the buyer is looking for even though it is accurately listed. If everything in the listing is accurate, the seller does not have to accept this return (listing states no returns accepted). If the seller were to accept the return, the buyer would likely have to pay for the shipping.

As a buyer wondering if this is the exact item I'm looking for, I'd move on.
plonz , thanks for your response. I believe that future readers of this thread may find it particularly helpful. Indeed, I had already moved on when I started this thread, which might not have been clear from my OP. Frank knows this from our interaction through eBay messaging.

I confess I gave the thread a click-baity title. I wanted to start a thread for posterity, since I'm sure this situation, which was new to me, would be familiar to some of the more experienced folks here. This forum attracts a lot of new fans of the bicycle looking for expert answers to questions. I decided to become a paying member because I perceived value in the advice I was getting for "free."

I think your post sums up what I'll personally consider in the future, and maybe other folks may find this discussion helpful. I also want to add something which others have noted: The auction includes "sealed" in the description. Asking the seller to open the box would require the seller to change the terms of the auction, which is a big thing to ask (setting aside the matter that it's not a big dollar auction). Most of you said it wasn't necessarily bad manners to ask the question, but nearly everyone here agrees that the seller can do as he pleases. It's his auction, after all. As I said in my original post, I knew that, but I'm glad to know that most of you wouldn't consider it improper to ask.

I thought bark_eater makes a great point about the experienced seller's perspective:

"The seller may be trying to make a small profit selling an item at fair market value. To do that he may well be considering the value of his own time and efficiently processing the items for sale. So the item you are interested may already be packed in a sealed mailing carton. So if you are asking him to undo work and change the condition of the item resulting in more work for him in repacking and having to revise the listing. Why don't you offer him $5 to open the box?"

Last ride 76 makes a similar point.

This helped answer something that originally baffled me. Knowing this was not a high-dollar item, I imagined that the "sealed box" aspect might not be as valuable as it would with top value vintage parts. So, I thought that the seller could actually gain by opening the box, rather than lose. You point out that he loses time: he has to open the box and shoot more photos. I'm sure a lot of busy eBay retailers have to streamline their process. Still, on this occasion, Frank took the time to respond to my question, which some of you say you would have ignored ( thinktubes and onyerleft , for example). I appreciate that he responded, so I decided to move on.

I want say, again, that I make no negative observations here about FTW! If you're reading this thread, Frank, I hope you're grinning.

I also decided to post about this because I thought it might be a lively discussion...I'm only an active member for about a year, but I'm already aware that we love to...uh...discuss.

Cheers,
Oliver H.
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Old 05-18-20, 12:50 PM
  #61  
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Seller's choices can make them or lose them money.

This is an auction sale not a buy-it-now sale.

The seller gains by getting more interested buyers, and not pissing off potential buyers. So they earn X amount if the item sells for $20. They gain much more if they start a bidding war and the item sells for $40.

So, does "sealed" without photos make money or lose money?

Yes, perhaps prepackaged, ready to ship. But, I like to browse other items....

Let me close that "other items" page quickly before I get tempted.

Anyway, "combined shipping" helps the seller get more bids and sales, and it helps the buyer get better rates... maybe. Or, if it is free shipping, the seller makes bank, if they bother to take the time to repackage (SAFELY).

I'm not sure about demanding quick payments. For me, I'll browse a seller's other items until I'm done bidding, then send in the payment. Then generally go away and never see that seller again. So, if they want to keep me interested, then keep an open tab.
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Old 05-18-20, 12:54 PM
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I recently asked a seller of a frame to get me a head tube measurement. He said it was already packed for shipping so he couldn't do that. It deterred me from making the purchase. Different story entirely, but it's like CliffordK says above... Sellers can do things that make or lose them money. That frame is still not sold after being advertised for several months, though the price is not unreasonable. *Shrug*

Last edited by Kilroy1988; 05-18-20 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 05-18-20, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
Yeah, there are plenty for sale in great condition out of the box already. Of course anyone can tear open a box of anything that they buy, whether it's a rare Star Wars toy or a rare derailleur - that's their prerogative. But that's one less still in the box - you can't put them back. So I'd suggest looking for a nice one that's already unboxed for use, yes!

-Gregory
And how do you what's in the box is really what's supposed to be in the box if you don't open the box?
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Old 05-18-20, 01:11 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by dwing View Post
And how do you what's in the box is really what's supposed to be in the box if you don't open the box?
Well, it's a bit harder for cycling equipment than classic toys, which is what I have a background in collecting. Usually the figures are on a card and you can physically see the toy through the plastic. Obviously not so with a box, but the same problem applies to larger toys.

Typically if a box that is decades old is truly sealed, it has old tape to match that hasn't been tampered with. A thorough inspection is usually necessary and anyone advertising unopened collectibles should know that photos of sealed areas are critical to valuation.
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Old 05-18-20, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by countalmaviva View Post
plonz , thanks for your response. I believe that future readers of this thread may find it particularly helpful. Indeed, I had already moved on when I started this thread, which might not have been clear from my OP. Frank knows this from our interaction through eBay messaging.

I confess I gave the thread a click-baity title. I wanted to start a thread for posterity, since I'm sure this situation, which was new to me, would be familiar to some of the more experienced folks here. This forum attracts a lot of new fans of the bicycle looking for expert answers to questions. I decided to become a paying member because I perceived value in the advice I was getting for "free."

I think your post sums up what I'll personally consider in the future, and maybe other folks may find this discussion helpful. I also want to add something which others have noted: The auction includes "sealed" in the description. Asking the seller to open the box would require the seller to change the terms of the auction, which is a big thing to ask (setting aside the matter that it's not a big dollar auction). Most of you said it wasn't necessarily bad manners to ask the question, but nearly everyone here agrees that the seller can do as he pleases. It's his auction, after all. As I said in my original post, I knew that, but I'm glad to know that most of you wouldn't consider it improper to ask.

I thought bark_eater makes a great point about the experienced seller's perspective:

"The seller may be trying to make a small profit selling an item at fair market value. To do that he may well be considering the value of his own time and efficiently processing the items for sale. So the item you are interested may already be packed in a sealed mailing carton. So if you are asking him to undo work and change the condition of the item resulting in more work for him in repacking and having to revise the listing. Why don't you offer him $5 to open the box?"

Last ride 76 makes a similar point.

This helped answer something that originally baffled me. Knowing this was not a high-dollar item, I imagined that the "sealed box" aspect might not be as valuable as it would with top value vintage parts. So, I thought that the seller could actually gain by opening the box, rather than lose. You point out that he loses time: he has to open the box and shoot more photos. I'm sure a lot of busy eBay retailers have to streamline their process. Still, on this occasion, Frank took the time to respond to my question, which some of you say you would have ignored ( thinktubes and onyerleft , for example). I appreciate that he responded, so I decided to move on.

I want say, again, that I make no negative observations here about FTW! If you're reading this thread, Frank, I hope you're grinning.

I also decided to post about this because I thought it might be a lively discussion...I'm only an active member for about a year, but I'm already aware that we love to...uh...discuss.

Cheers,
Oliver H.
Posterity, .

Maybe this thread should be a sticky?
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Old 05-18-20, 02:42 PM
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My thought is anything being sold in its original sealed box is sold in its original sealed box.

If you un-seal that box, you've just devalued it as an item in its original sealed box. Which, to me, makes a return tricky- that value has been removed from them.

In this case, IMO they're not anything that I'd look at as particularly desirable to have in an original sealed box... and might, in fact, benefit from pix of the levers themselves... But then again, I'm not a hardcore collector of things like this nor am I looking for these levers or levers like these. (at this time)
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Old 05-18-20, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dwing View Post
And how do you what's in the box is really what's supposed to be in the box if you don't open the box?
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Old 05-18-20, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by countalmaviva View Post
I love this. It's my first post to attract more than 10 replies, y'all!
Add my vote to the list of those that think the term "y'all" should never be used in NYC.

Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
If it were a first-generation Campagnolo Super Record RD in the sealed box, I wouldn't sell it to anyone I suspected of wanting to open the box. It should stay sealed.
Some vintage things are worth more in the box - look at collectible toys, for example. The rarest of the rare NOS bicycle parts count among those objects.
I don't agree at all. I'm a firm believer that these items should be used and enjoyed as intended (so used as a bike part, or as a toy...) I'd go as far as to say that those who prefer to keep these items unopened for all of eternity have some issues to resolve. Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with having some unresolved issues. We probably all have them. But I think the "don't ever open the packaging" people need to be honest with themselves.

Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Man, I was wondering when someone was going to reference UHF. Great movie.
I think we have the same taste in movies (as already established in another thread)... so have you seen The Wraith yet?
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Old 05-18-20, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by branko_76 View Post
Posterity, .

Maybe this thread should be a sticky?

Priceless.
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Old 05-18-20, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
Some vintage things are worth more in the box - look at collectible toys, for example.
Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
I don't agree at all. I'm a firm believer that these items should be used and enjoyed as intended (so used as a bike part, or as a toy...)
My brother ended up with my uncle's toy trucks.

He lets kids play with them as part of his Christmas display/activities in his store. Little do the kids know that those toy trucks are worth about $1000 EACH. Built to last in the 1940's or 1950's, they've survived generations of kids playing with them.

I can remember going to my grandmother's house as a kid, and the first thing would be to head into the garage and get out the trucks!!!

I'm glad they weren't kept in a box all these years.
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Old 05-18-20, 03:30 PM
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Troll thread.
Simple question. "Will you open the box?"
No. Simple situation.
Bid to find out....or not.
Sell....or not.
No big deal.
Children understand "yes" and "no."
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Old 05-18-20, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
I don't agree at all. I'm a firm believer that these items should be used and enjoyed as intended (so used as a bike part, or as a toy...) I'd go as far as to say that those who prefer to keep these items unopened for all of eternity have some issues to resolve. Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with having some unresolved issues. We probably all have them. But I think the "don't ever open the packaging" people need to be honest with themselves.
Ever collected something as an investment? If not, then I understand why you don't understand. I've bought things in their original packaging and resold them a decade later for many times the price. The value of any collectible item is usually linked to it's scarcity, and it stands to reason that there are typically fewer of whatever left in the original packaging than not, hence value is added for that.
​​​​
If you think buying and selling things with a value attached to packaging means someone has "issues" then I can only suggest that you broaden your perspective a bit.

Or evaluate why we think a first generation Super Record RD is worth however much in or out of the packaging when a contemporary Suntour mech is still technically better. Same reasoning - value assigned to scarcity, contemporary perspective, county of origin, etc... I'd still rather ride with my long-cage Cyclone.

And again, obviously there are already plenty to purchase that are out of the packaging. So I struggle to see why anyone would adamantly argue that all of them should be removed from the packaging. It's not necessary to meet the demand for useable ones.

-Gregory

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Old 05-18-20, 03:43 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
I think we have the same taste in movies (as already established in another thread)... so have you seen The Wraith yet?
I did see it! Man, it's been a little while. Certainly no Oscar winner, but it was an amusing watch. I want to watch Gone in 60 Seconds again (the Nicholas Cage one)--one of my all-time favorite car movies.
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Old 05-18-20, 04:07 PM
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.
...I use my original. still in the box, Star Wars action figures of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader as brake levers on my bike.
I find that the Yoda figure does not have enough reach to work comfortably for me with my larger hands..
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Old 05-18-20, 04:24 PM
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CliffordK
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
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...I use my original. still in the box, Star Wars action figures of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader as brake levers on my bike.
I find that the Yoda figure does not have enough reach to work comfortably for me with my larger hands..
Why does Yoda need the cable from the lever to the calipers?
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