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One Helluva Ride

Old 09-02-19, 05:14 PM
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mousemeat
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One Helluva Ride

For years, when I lived in Ann Arbor, One ride I always look forward to, was the AABTS, annual ride, ONE HELLUVA RIDE....which happens every July....been close to 30 yrs, since I've last done it...since Moving to Memphis, TN in 1986. I plan to do the ride in 2020..

Two other rides...I used to do as well...the Firecracker 100, and the Wolverine 100.........memphis, has an few rides..but nothing as cool as the ride going into Hell, Michigan, by way of Ann Arbor....
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Old 09-04-19, 03:37 PM
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One Helluva ride
Originally Posted by mousemeat View Post
For years, when I lived in Ann Arbor, One ride I always look forward to, was the AABTS, annual ride, ONE HELLUVA RIDE....which happens every July....been close to 30 yrs, since I've last done it...since Moving to Memphis, TN in 1986. I plan to do the ride in 2020..

Two other rides...I used to do as well...the Firecracker 100, and the Wolverine 100.........memphis, has an few rides..but nothing as cool as the ride going into Hell, Michigan, by way of Ann Arbor
FYA, I have done the OHR twice, in 2011 and 2015 in conjunction with the so-called Annual Fifty-Plus Forum Rides:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Here are links to posts that begin the personal narratives and photos for these Annual Fifty Plus Rides:…

Third Annual Ride (Chelsea, MI)[2011]



Fifth Annual Ride (Michigan)

....

Seventh Annual Ride (Michigan)[2015]
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
...Back in the 60’s in the Motor City, I had an “English Racer,’ and longed to tour at about age 14, but then joined the car culture. In Ann Arbor MI in the 70’s I really realized the utility of bicycles for commuting, and began touring on a five-speed Schwinn Suburban, but soon bought a Mercier as did my girlfriend, later my wife. We toured in Michigan and Ontario.

In 1977 we moved to Boston on our bikes, as a bicycling honeymoon from Los Angeles to Washington, DC and then took the train up to Boston…
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Back in the early 1970’s I rode with a ragtag, loosely University- (of Michigan) affiliated student club of the same name [Ann Arbor Bicycling Touring Society]. It was a small group of about maybe 5 to 10 regulars, led by a woman who basically suggested weekend rides (and taught me bicycle mechanics).

I have occasionally wondered if the current AABTS is the direct continuous sucession. I did ask about and named one rider from the seventies who was immediately recognized. One current rider had a jersey indicating the first OHR was in 1976. The name “One Helluva a Ride,” is taken from the nearby town of Hell, MI…
Was that Wolverine 100 held on Belle Isle in the Detroit River? I had ridden the Wolverine 200 in the early 1970’s.
Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
…You also need to include Belle Isle.It is now run by the DNR (State of MI), and is very well managed and safe. Do the entire perimeter if you have the energy.

We use to have a 200-mile cycling marathon there - The Wolverine 200. It was the only time they permitted camping overnight. Don't know if it is still going on.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
My first century, actually a double, was in 1971. The Wolverine Sports Club puts on an annual double century on Belle Isle, an island park in the Detroit River with a five mile perimeter, so the 24 hour double century is 40 laps.

It’s totally flat and you are obviously always in the company of lots of other cyclists. As I recall,at that time at least, it was the only time camping was allowed on the island so it was a festive affair. My roommate and I decided to do it, with no training, and me on my Schwinn Suburban and he on his Varsity.

After a few laps into the ride, at the main gate, a rider on a penny-farthing was dismounting, fell, and taco’ed my wheel. I don’t think he even apologized. My mother was able to go buy me a new wheel and drove through the traffic maze to the island, which was obviously congested by all the riders, and delivered a new one in about three hours, so I did finish.


At the end, I remember my roommate commented that his then-favorite star, Joey Heatherton, could appear in person, and he could care less ;-)
Originally Posted by zonatandem View Post
Jim from Boston

Rode the Belle Isle Marathon 200 miler several times; also the Canadian Mile Eater (200 miles in 2 days), Pedal to the Pines (Ontario, Canada) the Cycling Saddlemen's (Dearborn club) TOLSC (Tour of Lake St. Clair, a 2-day 200 miler plus lots of other rides/centuries with the Slow Spokes of Macomb bicycle club.
It's a small world!
I have been told it has been disbanded.
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Old 09-04-19, 05:04 PM
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my mistake....it was the Wolverine 200....not 100....damn, old age.....lol......and I did several other ' michigan ' rides...over the years I lived in Both Detroit, and then Ann Arbor...Did around an dozen One Helluva rides...in the 80's and 90's....still have the patches...I'll go dig 'em up, and post 'em..the bike I pretty much rode all those years, was either an old schwinn traveler, or in mid 1980's, the Super-LeTour..really enjoyed those old bikes...

I plan to do Ann Arbor, in 2020....after an long hiatus....
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Old 09-04-19, 05:07 PM
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Whoa. .....


There's a 50 Plus ride with people from the forum?
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Old 09-04-19, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by nomadmax View Post
Whoa. .....


There's a 50 Plus ride with people from the forum?
There was, as noted above.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
The concept of a Fifty-Plus Annual Ride began with the first in 2009 prompted by @DnvrFox and a gathering of 50+ cyclists in Colorado to ride various routes. @tsl suggested Watkins Glen for a second one. IMO that boosted the idea for subsequent Rides. Watkins Glen was an organized weekend event held at a campground, so we were all together to socialize and ride supported routes.

Subsequently, a Fifty-Plus subscriber would start a thread, and various others would make their suggestions for geographically varied events. Usually one site emerged as the One. Many more subscribers expressed interest than eventually showed up.

Furthermore, we all stayed at different locations by our own arrangements, but tried to meet up socially before or after the Ride, all as described in Chronicles of the Annual 50+ Rides (link). …IMO an Organized Ride, sponsored by a local cycling organization is the sine qua non for such a Ride, providing the definition, logistical support, and assumption of liability.

For myself, I have traveled hundreds of miles to a few of the Annual Rides, so I am always glad to call for one here in New England at least, especially Metro Boston.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
…Not to consider myself as the sole proprietor, but a devotee, I once posted this definition when the proposals were being circulated of one in the past, and I was taken to task for it
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
…I'd like to propose this definition of an Annual Ride: One that is announced on the 50-Plus Forum for all subscribers, with sufficient lead time to make preparations to attend. No minimum number of riders, other than at least one besides the “host.”

After the ride there should be some narratives and photos of the event (“without pictures, it didn't happen”). Then the ride should be recorded in the Chronicles. It would be helpful to keep all the suggestions for a Ride on one single thread.
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
The idea that there is an official or sanctioned Bikeforum event is rubbish.

As a former moderator I discussed the legal and organization linkage between Bikeforums and any events announced within these forums with Tom Stormcrowe. He explained to me that there is none…

I've also met up with Bikeforum members on other occasions. These events are unregulated and open. If they become successful, it's the result of like minded people just enjoying the hobby and a willingness to gather.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
… Indeed, to the best of my knowledge there never was any official sanction of a ”…Annual Fifty-Plus Forum Ride..” It’s always been my understanding that those rides were informally organized by any given subscriber to Bike Forums usually as the name states by a subscriber to 50+.

I’ve always considered it an engaging tradition of this normally convivial Forum, not unlike the annual Pie Ride, but more formally organized.

I first heard the term, “…Annual Fifty-Plus Ride” when I attended the Second Ride in Watkins Glen, NY in 2010. In fact, the titles and “hosts” of the specific threads proposing the Annual Rides, and post counts have been:

Apparently DF thought this indeed would be an onging event.

Official in the sense of definitive, not sanctioned.


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Old 09-10-19, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mousemeat View Post
my mistake....it was the Wolverine 200....not 100....damn, old age.....lol......and I did several other ' michigan ' rides...over the years I lived in Both Detroit, and then Ann Arbor...Did around an dozen One Helluva rides...in the 80's and 90's....still have the patches...I'll go dig 'em up, and post 'em..the bike I pretty much rode all those years, was either an old schwinn traveler, or in mid 1980's, the Super-LeTour..really enjoyed those old bikes...

I plan to do Ann Arbor, in 2020....after an long hiatus....
I've done OHR almost every year from 1994 to this year. The ride has changed bit by bit over the years. In order to go through Hell, you will probably have to do the 100-mile route now. It changed this year such that they serve lunch at Chelsea Fairgrounds at ride's end now, and not mid-ride at Portage Lake. All routes start and end at Chelsea Fairgrounds now.

The number of riders has gone down greatly since the 90s also. I seem to remember they were over 2000 then, maybe up to 2200 or 2300. One of the club members told me last year they were around 1200 now. This may be related to the fact that the quality of the roads has deteriorated greatly the last 10 years. Be forewarned that it will be a rough ride. Rural Michigan roads are in pretty miserable shape due to lack of maintenance.
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Old 09-10-19, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjet View Post
Be forewarned that it will be a rough ride. Rural Michigan roads are in pretty miserable shape due to lack of maintenance.
..and one body wants to pay for it.
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Old 09-11-19, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjet View Post
Be forewarned that it will be a rough ride. Rural Michigan roads are in pretty miserable shape due to lack of maintenance.
Gravel/CX bikes rule! At least I can smooth things out a bit.

Ironically, doing a gravel ride last night I was reminded how much better shape our gravel is than our asphalt.
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Old 09-11-19, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
One Helluva rideFYA, I have done the OHR twice, in 2011 and 2015 in conjunction with the so-called Annual Fifty-Plus Forum Rides..
I think I did OHR in 2011. My friends were giving me crap, because I was doing it on a fixed gear bike.
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Old 10-20-19, 06:11 PM
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I usually do OHR, but IIRC, the weather was a bit iffy this year so I didn't bother. How was the new format, with the lunch stop at the end instead of the middle?
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Old 10-21-19, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
I usually do OHR, but IIRC, the weather was a bit iffy this year so I didn't bother. How was the new format, with the lunch stop at the end instead of the middle?
I personally preferred it the other way. But my guess is that they changed it because it is getting harder to get volunteers to work rides; this allowed them to only have to cover the Chelsea fairgrounds, instead of the fairgrounds and Portage Lake.
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Old 10-25-19, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjet View Post
I've done OHR almost every year from 1994 to this year. The ride has changed bit by bit over the years. In order to go through Hell, you will probably have to do the 100-mile route now.
I didn't ride this year, but last year I think I did the 100 mile route until lunch, then finished on the 75-mile route. Whatever I did, the combination worked out to 90 miles. I never liked the stretch south of Grass Lake, and that's where the missing 10 miles were.
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Old 12-02-19, 06:17 PM
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I don't know if I posted this before, but here's a video of the last 6 miles or so, as I did it in 2016. The clacking noise is my Aerojacket spoke cover rattling as I go over expansion joints.

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Old 12-29-19, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjet View Post
I've done OHR almost every year from 1994 to this year. The ride has changed bit by bit over the years. In order to go through Hell, you will probably have to do the 100-mile route now. It changed this year such that they serve lunch at Chelsea Fairgrounds at ride's end now, and not mid-ride at Portage Lake. All routes start and end at Chelsea Fairgrounds now.

The number of riders has gone down greatly since the 90s also. I seem to remember they were over 2000 then, maybe up to 2200 or 2300. One of the club members told me last year they were around 1200 now. This may be related to the fact that the quality of the roads has deteriorated greatly the last 10 years. Be forewarned that it will be a rough ride. Rural Michigan roads are in pretty miserable shape due to lack of maintenance.
I've done it maybe 6 times in the 25 years I've lived in Ann Arbor, and I "organized" within the 50+ ers to build interest and make sure people had necessary information. Participants included Jim from Boston, Rtool, some other Ohio folks and Blazing Pedals, but BP with his low-profile 'bent speed could not be said to ride with anyone other than the small crew of other speedy bents. A former musical colleague of mine was (maybe still is?) Pres of the AABTS, and I know he went on a campaign to search for the best-quality road surfaces on the roads starting at the Chelsea Fairgrounds, and has refined the route somewhat.

I would have ridden it more if not for the difficulty I found with maintaining fitness, caring for our aging parents, keeping up with my career, and handling some injuries. Now retired, I want to get back in the saddle, based on indoor training. Maybe we can get the band back together?

I'm not an AABTS member at the moment, but I'm pretty sure their website has a few Google groups and ways to ask questions. They usually post the previous year's route.

One one of the rides involving 50+, we met on Friday night at an Irish pub in Chelsea for dinner and drinks, and a social ride from Ann Arbor preceded by breakfast at Zingerman's Deli (that was a mistake for those who wanted to ride their usual 10/10!). On another one, 50+ers who camped in nearby Waterloo Recreation had drinks made in a backpacker's cocktail kit (I still haven't seen it!). Last one was capped off by dinner with Jim from Boston at Metzger's, a local German restaurant.

Ann Arbor is refining the in-town bicycling infrastructure, and the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments (SEMCOG) is (or maybe there is an independent political support?) with other entities building a bikeway across all of Washtenaw County. It will link to other mapped cycling routes in Michigan to be part of the Iron Belle trail that will cross Michigan N/S and E/W (I hope I got all this hype right!!!!). Reminds me of the Wisconsin Bikeway built in the early 1970's! One of the big engineering issues is to get the cycles and walkers (much of it is MUP) across a railway that is expected to carry high-speed traffic.

Re: no money for roads. Road maintenance responisibility is with a wide range of governmental levels: municipal, township, county, state, and Federal. The one everybody knows about from the news is the State of Michigan responsibility. The roads that organized rides such as OHR want to use are not usually State highways, thought there are some exceptions. State highways may link urbanizations of various size, from Ann Arbor to say, Dexter, as faster 2-lane roads, 55 mph. Some are not really wide enough for safe cycling. Most but not all of the roads chosen for OHR are maintained at lower levels. OHR goes through at least three counties, or at least it has (I know nothing about the route for 2020). Washtenaw County does not have the best maintenance capability among them. There isn't much political opportunity to influence that.

Mrs. Road Fan and I have ridden the route or pieces of it a number of times (doing metrics). She was on a 1997 Terry road bike with 90 psi 28 mm Gatorskins, and I was usually on an Italian roadie with 21 to 27 mm tubulars, about 90 psi for the skinnies and 75 for the fatties. Both bikes on well-built wheels with aluminum rims and there was so no damage to our bikes or bodies, since we knew how to ride around the rough spots and to "post" up from the saddles to shelter our old bones and to add flex to the frame loading. If you are intending to ride it, a full-roadie bike is fine if you know how to ride it on questionable surfaces. Other solutions like a rando bike (650b, flexy frame, long wheelbase) might be better if you get tired and just need to keep pushing the metal. Been there!

The annual 50+ ride was originally organized by Denver Fox, who is no longer a member of BF. I haven't had contact with him for quite a while so I hope he is well. One challenge in setting up such a ride is the ability of members to travel across our vast United States. Everyone wants to do such a ride, but there's a practical limit to the travel, for many of us. Other very notable events were the Colorado ride sponsored by Denver, a tour of the Katy Trail in Missouri, and a relaxing jaunt through (well, among) the Finger Lakes in New York State.

Jim from Boston has written a history of the events, which helps us fellow BF-OFs remember the details (by crackey, I WAS really there! This rocking chair needs more gears!), if'n we can remember to read it.

Last edited by Road Fan; 12-29-19 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 12-29-19, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
I didn't ride this year, but last year I think I did the 100 mile route until lunch, then finished on the 75-mile route. Whatever I did, the combination worked out to 90 miles. I never liked the stretch south of Grass Lake, and that's where the missing 10 miles were.
Yes, that Grass Lake section was not as smooth. I'd like to see that Aerojet spoke protector!

suggested caption: "BP kicking roadie butt!"
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Old 12-30-19, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
”One Helluva ride”

FYA, I have done the OHR twice, in 2011 and 2015 in conjunction with the so-called Annual Fifty-Plus Forum Rides:
Originally Posted by nomadmax View Post
Whoa. .....

There's a 50 Plus ride with people from the forum?
Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I've done it maybe 6 times in the 25 years I've lived in Ann Arbor, and I "organized" within the 50+ ers to build interest and make sure people had necessary information. Participants included Jim from Boston, Rtool, some other Ohio folks and Blazing Pedals, but BP with his low-profile 'bent speed could not be said to ride with anyone other than the small crew of other speedy bents.

A former musical colleague of mine was (maybe still is?) Pres of the AABTS, and I know he went on a campaign to search for the best-quality road surfaces on the roads starting at the Chelsea Fairgrounds, and has refined the route somewhat….

On one of the rides involving 50+, we met on Friday night at an Irish pub in Chelsea for dinner and drinks, and a social ride from Ann Arbor preceded by breakfast at Zingerman's Deli (that was a mistake for those who wanted to ride their usual 10/10!).

On another one, 50+ers who camped in nearby Waterloo Recreation had drinks made in a backpacker's cocktail kit (I still haven't seen it!). Last one was capped off by dinner with Jim from Boston at Metzger's, a local German restaurant.

Jim from Boston has written a history of the events, which helps us fellow BF-OFs remember the details (by crackey, I WAS really there! This rocking chair needs more gears!), if'n we can remember to read it.
Thanks for the nod @Road Fan, and indeed I wrote on post #s 2 and 5 of this thread my recollections of previous Annual Fifty-Plus Rides 2009 to 2015, and of the AABTS.

A Chronicle of the 50+ Annual Ride"(link) used to be a sticky
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
…FYA, there is a Fifty-Plus thread, "A Chronicle of 50+ Annual Rides" that lists all the participants, venues, and postings of those gatherings.

It used to be a “sticky” but was mysteriously and unceremoniously dumped..
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
”50+ the way that it used to be”

I think this Forum started well before I joined in 2008, maybe 2005?

What has captivated me most about Fifty-Plus beside the general milieu are (were) the Annual rides begun in 2009 up though last year. I have ridden in five of them, and have compiled the personal narratives of all the Rides on the thread, A Chronicle of the 50+ Annual Rides"].

I myself think this so-called "way it used to be" ended with the Fourth Annual Ride in Tennessee. BTW, @billydonn [now deceased] was on that one.

Another change IMO is the seeming disappearance of self-identified females from those good old days. Miss Kenton, Miss Jean, and Beverly come immediately to mind as the Women of Fifty-Plus, since I have met them all in person.

I considered Miss K the doyenne of the Forum with her savvy and witty posts.
BTW, I hadn’t heard about the 50+ers who camped in nearby Waterloo Recreation had drinks made in a backpacker's cocktail kit, but on the Second Annual Ride at Watkins Glen, I got this reputation:
Originally Posted by freedomrider1 View Post
Jim,I thought you had everything you needed in that huge bag on the back of your bike.

Originally Posted by Louis View Post
...the portable martini kit. What the hell, man, he's ready now.

Originally Posted by miss kenton View Post
...And I can assure you, the portables are potable!
↓↓↓↓

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 12-30-19 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 12-30-19, 05:41 AM
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ɅɅɅɅ
Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I've done it maybe 6 times in the 25 years I've lived in Ann Arbor, and I "organized" within the 50+ ers to build interest and make sure people had necessary information

Now retired, I want to get back in the saddle, based on indoor training. Maybe we can get the band back together?

The annual 50+ ride was originally organized by Denver Fox, who is no longer a member of BF. I haven't had contact with him for quite a while so I hope he is well.

One challenge in setting up such a ride is the ability of members to travel across our vast United States. Everyone wants to do such a ride, but there's a practical limit to the travel, for many of us.

Other very notable events were the Colorado ride sponsored by Denver, a tour of the Katy Trail in Missouri, and a relaxing jaunt through (well, among) the Finger Lakes in New York State.
I broached the subject of another Fifty Plus Annual Ride on this nostalgic thread in May of this year:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
"Anyone hear from STAPFAM these days??"

The concept of a Fifty-Plus Annual Ride began with the first in 2009 prompted by @DnvrFox and a gathering of 50+ cyclists in Colorado to ride various routes. @tsl suggested Watkins Glen for a second one. IMO that boosted the idea for subsequent Rides. Watkins Glen was an organized weekend event held at a campground, so we were all together to socialize and ride supported routes.

Subsequently, a Fifty-Plus subscriber would start a thread, and various others would make their suggestions for geographically varied events. Usually one site emerged as the One. Many more subscribers expressed interest than eventually showed up.

Furthermore, we all stayed at different locations by our own arrangements, but tried to meet up socially before or after the Ride, all as described in Chronicles of the Annual 50+ Rides (link). The one at Raystown Lake PA, 2015 though was similar to Watkins Glen, a weekend event with lodging at a defined site.

Perhaps later this year I, or someone else may get the ball rolling on the Fifty-Plus Forum as described above. IMO an Organized Ride, sponsored by a local cycling organization is the sine qua non for such a Ride, providing the definition, logistical support, and assumption of liability.

For myself, I have traveled hundreds of miles to a few of the Annual Rides, so I am always glad to call for one here in New England at least, especially Metro Boston.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
and about 800 miles [one way] twice to the Rides in Michigan to also visit my family there.
One event this year that comes to mind, on Sunday September 15, suitable for a wide range of cycling abilities is the 15th Annual Hub on Wheels.

Friday and Saturday would be suitable for visiting Boston and socializing. My own personal rewards:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I really enjoy showing visitors around Boston on informal walking [and bicycling] tours, and I would offer that to a fellow BF subscriber...
↓↓↓↓

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 12-30-19 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 12-30-19, 06:09 AM
  #18  
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ɅɅɅɅ

Finally to end this excursion down memory lane:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
…Back in the 60’s in the Motor City, I had an “English Racer,’ and longed to tour at about age 14, but then joined the car culture.

In Ann Arbor MI in the 70’s I really realized the utility of bicycles for commuting, and began touring on a five-speed Schwinn Suburban, but soon bought a Mercier as did my girlfriend, later my wife. We toured in Michigan and Ontario.

In 1977 we moved to Boston on our bikes, as a bicycling honeymoon from Los Angeles to Washington, DC and then took the train up to Boston...
Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
...Ann Arbor is refining the in-town bicycling infrastructure, and the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments (SEMCOG) is (or maybe there is an independent political support?) with other entities building a bikeway across all of Washtenaw County.

It will link to other mapped cycling routes in Michigan to be part of the Iron Belle trail that will cross Michigan N/S and E/W (I hope I got all this hype right!!!!). Reminds me of the Wisconsin Bikeway built in the early 1970's! One of the big engineering issues is to get the cycles and walkers (much of it is MUP) across a railway that is expected to carry high-speed traffic.

Re: no money for roads. …
Back in the 1970s, early in my cycling lifestyle, I got involved with a local advocacy group, mostly political and not otherwise an active cycling organization. I think it was called the Ann Arbor Bicycle Coalition. I was interviewed on a local radio talk show on WAAM as I recall, about a bicycle rally the group was holding.

For that event, I mapped out a bike route on residential streets similar to an automobile road rally where the winner arrives closest to the predetermined time I established for a “safe” ride..

I think that back then the big push was for more sidewalk curb cuts.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 12-30-19 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 01-02-20, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I'd like to see that Aerojet spoke protector!


suggested caption: "BP kicking roadie butt!"

I posted a pic of the bike in the So I've decided to give a darn about "aero" thread, in the General forum.
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Old 01-07-20, 01:59 PM
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Mousemeat, will you be in town a few days early for OHR? Should someone try to organize a 50+ get-together?

I did the last Wolverine 200 ever held. I think it was in 2004. After that, the park was closed for remodeling; and even after re-opening, the Wolverine Sports Club was not able to get permits for the 12-hour event.
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