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Old 06-16-19, 10:36 PM
  #676  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Some work yet to be done. I've seen some data on the Speedplay Aeros, ERO Sports showed 3-5W over the std pedals. Not much out there on shoes but thinking about going to lace up like Empires or Sub6. What are the fast youngsters using?
Based on aerotesting last year at ERO Sport, Giro Empires are demonstrably fast shoes. With the general concept being laced shoes are faster than boa shoes.

Ive done all my bike fits at ERO since I first showed up on a $600 road bike and didnít know any better, and then I went to Jim before I bought a TT bike just to get started right. I have a lot of confidence in my equipment- sometimes from personal experience with aero testing and sometimes just because Jim tells me XY or Z is fast for everybody. Some of my gear is expensive but a lot of it is not.

Iím interested in aero but not in chasing every idea that some guy thinks is fast. I basically just go to the source, the person I know who lives and breathes aero testing, and I listen to him. Blended with listening to Ex because I get it that aerotesting on an indoor velodrome is not going to 100% give you the same results as racing on the road, where the pavement and winds and temperature may play a role as well. Plus some things are impractical to aerotest for individuals- like tires. So you donít really 100% know your optimal set up from aerotesting, some of it you gain from racing and seeing what results you get. This is my most efficient approach- mostly I follow the advice of two people who I consider experts and take everything else with a grain of salt. Itís hard in casual conversation to understand where people get their info, for me personally I need a pretty solid exchange of ideas, an actual back-and-forth conversation, before Iím convinced to lay out $ on something aero.

Anyway, Iím happy to share my gear/equipment list if itís of interest. Or you can just PM me anytime if you have a specific question. I canít always speak to what other people have but I know what I have and why it was chosen.
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Old 06-17-19, 05:41 PM
  #677  
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Junior said he needed to pre-run and see the HR to set the target based on perceived effort.
Set the rate on PRE to the venue, then run on HR during event.

Just like choosing tire pressure.
I am amazed at what the trained human body can perceive (I can typically guess .010" within 3% - bored thing I do with calipers).
Wurf, Finney, Cancellara and many elite runners and rowers do this. Some kinda zen zone thing.

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Old 06-17-19, 06:54 PM
  #678  
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@Heathpack, thank you for passing on the shoe info. I may have to make a trip out to ERO one of these days, a unique service and would be an interesting experience.
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Old 06-18-19, 09:14 AM
  #679  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
@Heathpack, thank you for passing on the shoe info. I may have to make a trip out to ERO one of these days, a unique service and would be an interesting experience.
ERO / Jim Manton is a great service for fitting and testing. My wife and I have over 12 hours of testing. It is different from tunnel testing in that one has to ride several laps per test to get a reliable result. The technology is a series of wifi sensors embedded under the track that collects speed and power data from the bike as on rides around the track. ERO has a mathematical model for the track that converts the live data to CdA instantaneously as one rides along the track that is diplayed on a laptop.

In general, it takes about 10 laps per test so a 200 lap session is pretty typical for a 3 hour testing session which is actually pretty hard on the athlete. Speeds do not have to be that fast but he likes a couple of fast laps per test since rider position can change for the better or worse at higher speeds.

When they announced the services a few years ago, we were beta testers for the service. The moment we heard about it, we were in. Over the years, ERO has serviced international and pro teams / individuals and has a large data base of human performance. So when one gets a fit by ERO, they know who is on the top of the pyramid with respect to equipment and positions. Interestingly, there are some trends where a certain position seems faster but there are athletes that are outliers such that one has to test and it is insufficient to assume that if tilting the aerobars up works for some it will work for all. It does not.

The downside of ERO is that they do not stock a lot of equipment so that one can test such as helmets. They may have a couple available so if an athlete wants to test a helmet, then one has to show up with the whatever they want to test and compare. To say it another way, one cannot test the five leading aero helmets against each other unless you show up with five helmets. For sponsored international and pro teams, this is not a problem. For amateurs with finite budgets, it limits what we can do in practice.

Last year, my wife did an aero test and for fun, we did a test where I rode behind her. My theory was that my pressure wave would interact with the disturbed air coming off her body and lower her CdA. The result was amazing. I lowered her CdA by 5% by riding behind her 6 inches from her wheel. So when we ride on the road and I ride behind her, we go fast for not a lot of power. The caveat is she has to ride in a perfectly strait line so that I can set up behind her for the wind conditions. If she is moving around a lot on the road, the effect is reduced.

Is ERO worth the cost? I like my own data and find discussion among and with racers / coaches very noisy. Somewhere within the noise are facts but it is impossible to differentiate what works for me. Testing allows me to stay ahead of the curve. YMMV
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Old 10-31-19, 12:21 PM
  #680  
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Found a $30 wind speed sensor that works on a phone. Emailing them to see if you can export each recording from a file.

If so, having a live air speed to pair with power meter and speed sensor data would get you to a "post ride" CdA.

Plus, I can try $30 versus $400 for a Velocomp.

Let's see what they say.
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Old 11-03-19, 03:14 PM
  #681  
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Alright, the new video with new toys.

This is with the shortest stem and highest stack. I have all three of the Felt Bayonet stems from 65 to 90mm. So, this is the 65. Also all of the PDQ risers are on the bar. Meaning, it can go longer/lower from here. This is just the starting point at the high/short end since the old base bar junk was on the 90mm stem and as low as possible.

Try the middle stem and minus one shorter stack spacer?

I think I'm getting there on the hands. It seems the idea is to "fill" that chest space under your chin and between your upper arms with the hands. Seems like that's better accomplished now. Next though would be staying comfy and powerful and getting the back back down a bit again.

The videos posted before this one maybe looked more aggressive, but the power and feel on the bike was terrible. This "feels" a lot better on the road. On the road, I feel like that bit of sway goes away with the movement of the bike versus being on a fixed trainer. It doesn't feel like that on the road. Also, invested in a BP 3.3 recently. Lol, it takes me about 5 to 10 minutes to get into that thing! It feels sprayed on compared to this cheaper/older suit.

Side view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lipV...ature=youtu.be

Front on view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBeQ...ature=youtu.be
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Old 11-03-19, 07:39 PM
  #682  
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Okay. UCI rule is the tip of the aerobars can be 10 cm above the pads. BtS, yours looks like a lot more.

So let's assume you never do a UCI rule enforced race. I am not sure that is a very fast position. I get your aero theory and it sort of makes sense but I have found that aerodynamics generally follows rules until it doesn't. I would check it with a coast down test or whatever.
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Old 11-03-19, 07:51 PM
  #683  
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The height is from the pads on the same angle. Pads can go 15 degrees angle. Those are 15 deg aerocoaches. The fancy blocks tilt the extensions and pads. Mine just pads.

Bars are a touch long/high, but see the typical team Huub positions. Iíd have to buy some wattshop bars or something if necessary. This was ďfreeĒ to try by flipping and cutting.

Iíll try some rides outside soon and see how it rolls. Power feels fine indoors.
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Old 11-03-19, 07:52 PM
  #684  
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you look pretty upright to me...
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Old 11-04-19, 09:04 AM
  #685  
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Yup, it is. I just did a side by side photo.......

I'll need to see though. One big problem for me has always been the aero/power balance. This is probably all the way to the power side of things, pretty upright. The other was all the way to the aero side of things.

I'll definitely take out one small riser. But not all of them without riding a while and looking at data.

The first ride outdoors like this I was pretty darn fast (for me) with some PR's on a rolling segment I like to do that tests power, skills, and aero riding TT.

But, I'm OK with all this knowing I have stems and spacers I can play with now! Just a matter of trying things. Before everything was permanently bolted down in one spot.

So it's all fair game.

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Old 11-05-19, 07:28 AM
  #686  
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Ask and you shall receive. Especially since adjustments are easy now.
Come to find out, I hadn't purchased the middle two of the four available Felt Bayonet stems. The one I had on there was the absolute shortest one. What this was doing was putting the arms at an angle to push the front of my body higher. Looking at it, you'd notice the body will move up or down depending on the reach there if yo u sit in the same spot on the saddle. (not fitter talk, just me talking out of my ass).I sat the three stems down together and it appears despite being an engineer, I ignored the math behind each stem length initially. It's a whole inch difference between each stem. So, it can make a bundle of difference which you use! They sell it seems a 40mm, 65mm, 80mm. I had started with the 40.I also took out all of the front end stack spacers. The PDQ bars still have some integrated stack built into the pad/extension mount of about an inch. No way around that.So, going to ride this outdoors at lunch today and tonight for a bit to see what I think.Next task is fixing the extensions to make them "UCI acceptable" instead of obviously jacked up. This was just flipping them for free. I'll buy some meant for high hands that say they meet the measurements. They sell them claiming "15 degree high hands UCI legal".Believe it or not, the saddle is setback and the extensions right now do meet the max forward dimension. Somehow.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htkS...ature=youtu.be
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Old 11-07-19, 08:52 PM
  #687  
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I've done the "full lotus position before" Super aero, no power. I did 26 mph on 230 watts or something. FTP was somewhere around 285 during that race, 230 or whatever was full gas in that position. My shoulders hurt so bad holding it for an hour.

https://www.strava.com/activities/2452422572/analysis
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Old 12-13-19, 09:58 AM
  #688  
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So, I've been riding it as-is but pulling my hands shorter on the extensions. Has felt fine. Today I lopped off some of the extensions. It's now within a gnat's ass of the 10cm/4inch rule. The gnat's ass part is the stupid shifter. But whatever, I ain't no pro or high level rider. I used my picture hanging laser level and a drywall square to get it right.

I did want to get it "visually" closer to sanity. Which it is now. A passing glance would be "hands up" but nothing like "holy crap that's not even close".

I'll probably fab up a little "finger catch" like those folks have been adding to the extensions for track. I have an idea how to do it without adding height/length.
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Old 12-13-19, 02:23 PM
  #689  
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I would not lop off any more. At masters road nationals this year, USAC did not do a bike check. I had my wife's bike checked in case she set a new national record but I knew the bike was in compliance. The course was at the right altitude but the road surface was really slow.

My training theory is do not train on equipment that is out of compliance. One never knows what the future will hold. Now, if I know that I have a faster position and can develop the same power and there is no bike check then I will use the better position or different equipment.

IMO, USAC is extremely worried about low racer turnout and does not want to do anything to discourage participation.
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Old 12-16-19, 07:56 AM
  #690  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
I would not lop off any more. At masters road nationals this year, USAC did not do a bike check. I had my wife's bike checked in case she set a new national record but I knew the bike was in compliance. The course was at the right altitude but the road surface was really slow.

My training theory is do not train on equipment that is out of compliance. One never knows what the future will hold. Now, if I know that I have a faster position and can develop the same power and there is no bike check then I will use the better position or different equipment.

IMO, USAC is extremely worried about low racer turnout and does not want to do anything to discourage participation.
Agreed.

I am going to call in all my honey pleases to do what official TT I can this year. Iíll drive. Maybe carpool and do a guyís weekend with her brother.

But Iíve worked on this so now time to perform.

Iíve been riding to total time, distance, hr, and power. Hiding the speed. I get less nervous going fast on the skis and execute strategy better.
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Old 12-16-19, 01:46 PM
  #691  
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For the TT fans:

Can't remember if I posted this here or not. I searched for it by name but it didn't come up.

I read and enjoyed the Obree autobio. I decided to mail my copy of The Flying Scotsman over to Scotland to have him sign it. He's not often in the US except for the Battle Mountain stuff.

Here it is.......after a favor from a local TT clubbie in Scotland and paying for postage to/from. Which, postage for a book to/from was silly expensive for what it is. I also included a nice note thanking him for signing and thanking for sharing his story.

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Old 01-04-20, 04:02 PM
  #692  
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Advice for cold TT and gloves? Most TT gloves are no fingertips.

Super tight safety anti cut gloves and wear a latex glove inside it?

I own Embro for the legs. Iíd saran wrap my foot in my shoes. And keep the engine revved and warm.
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Old 01-04-20, 09:16 PM
  #693  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Advice for cold TT and gloves? Most TT gloves are no fingertips.

Super tight safety anti cut gloves and wear a latex glove inside it?

I own Embro for the legs. I’d saran wrap my foot in my shoes. And keep the engine revved and warm.
xc ski gloves. You can do mitts, most folks like the figures movable. Junior was using some rubber dish washing gloves over thin knit gloves.
For feet the Velotoze.

Last edited by Doge; 01-04-20 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 01-22-20, 12:35 PM
  #694  
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Really disappointing ride. Tested out my kit choice for the time of day and temperatures the race may be. Spot on there. So, good on me for doing that at least.

This is an out-back country road by my work in a windy part of the state with some bumps along the way. Fine. I cannot seem to lay the power down in the wind. Tossed the file into Excel and had this:

45 second out of ~25min at 10w or less
3 minutes at 200w or less

Correcting for the straight up "zeroes" to just something, it would have gotten me closer to race pace power. Even then, I was down a touch versus indoors.

Speed was OK for the power I did make. The temp and humidity made it about as slow outside as possible. By my calculator, 20w to 25w slower weather conditions just on temp/humidity.

Wind wasn't that heavy. Maybe a 10mph to 12mph cross/head wind. I guess I just ride like a road bike and am not hogging the lane. So, that means I'm closer right than where it would feel ideal to hammer a TT bike in the wind. So with some gusts I "stutter step" the pedals not putting power. I also lost time coasting/waiting for some construction workers. But whatever.

I dunno, I hear the rear disc can straighten you out in a wind a bit versus a deep front. Dunno about that.

It was practice. Which matters. I need another one or two of those before February.
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Old 01-22-20, 02:57 PM
  #695  
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Here is what I found to be true for me and wheels in the wind. A rear disc stabilizes the bike to a point but a large gust will play havoc with a rear disc.

The front wheel is the key to managing wind. The deeper the wheel rim, the greater the wind response with the trispoke being the worst but generally the fastest.

The key to maintaining pedal force in the wind is relaxing and let the bike lean into the wind like a sail. You have to trust the lean is okay.

The other option is to keep the disc and go with a narrower rim. If you lose pedal force in the wind due to wheels, it is very hard to make up later due to “more aero” wheels.

My suggestion is dress rehearsals in windy conditions with disc / trispoke, TT helmet and skin suit. And do runs with different wheel combos.
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Old 01-27-20, 04:57 AM
  #696  
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Any tips for setting up a TT position again from scratch? I have owned a TT bike for two years but didn't ride it much due to injury and different priorities. On top of that, it is pretty old and was hardly adjustable. This year i am targeting some TT events, so i ordered a different handlebar set up that is nicely adjustable. So basically, i can start from step 1 and rebuild my TT position to fit me, instead of conforming to the limitations of the bike.
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Old 01-27-20, 08:51 AM
  #697  
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Steps to setup - some ideas.

1. UCI compliance or not. And you are allowed one morphological exception. I think this has been discussed in previous posts in this thread.

2. Knee tracking. This is controlled by cleat position and foot angle left/right and is an important setup. Every other setup point is less important until one is making adjustments for lower CdA. Wedges are sometimes placed in shoes to adjust knee tracking.

3. Seat height. In general, it is going to be higher than the road position.

4 Seat fore and aft. In general, the seat position is moved forward and up as the body is rotated toward the handlebar.

5. Once the saddle is set, the aerobars are lowered until the back is essentially flat.

6. At this point, the angle between the thigh and knee as the pedal goes over the top is measured and the crank length adjusted - usually shorter than the road cranks.

7. The stem is then adjusted to position the arm angle and this is where one needs someone with experience to look at side view and make changes.

8. The space between the arms is adjusted to make it narrow as possible with the proviso that narrowing the distance between the arms does NOT cause the head to pop up.

9. Finally, the angle of the aerobar extensions is adjusted so the tips of the bars are 10 cm above level.

This completes the setup and then the rider is tested for CdA and all adjustments other than cleat position are tweaked.

In the end, the rider may not be able to make much power in this position and it may take months of strength and adaptation to generate power in the optimized time trial position.
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Old 01-29-20, 08:26 AM
  #698  
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Originally Posted by gerundium View Post
Any tips for setting up a TT position again from scratch? I have owned a TT bike for two years but didn't ride it much due to injury and different priorities. On top of that, it is pretty old and was hardly adjustable. This year i am targeting some TT events, so i ordered a different handlebar set up that is nicely adjustable. So basically, i can start from step 1 and rebuild my TT position to fit me, instead of conforming to the limitations of the bike.
The position is critical, ignoring other equipment like good CRR tires and stuff. Part of that is having a bike and the bar setup in a way you can work within your body geometry. So your new bar setup is a great start.

IMO, it's triathlon folks, but head over to Slowtwitch.com forums. There are some certified fit coaches over there that often post advice up on fit videos. You have to do the homework to get something basic started out and take a good video to post. Then they'll ask questions and critique it.

Then you can kind of iterate the process over some months or a year. Take the advice, adjust it, ride it for a while to adapt and try it........try something more or less aggressive......post an update......repeat.

It took me about a year of doing this to where I feel I have (by my armchair data) a really good watts/CdA balance and can comfortably ride the thing longer than an hour now if necessary.

One big advice point..........don't ignore the possibility of the crank as a fit point. I know a lot of WT pros still ride massive crank arm lengths, but some of them are really tall and probably crotchety and fixed in their ways. For me, going short was a huge fit coordinate improvement. And I'm still not "that" short of a crank.
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Old 01-31-20, 06:11 AM
  #699  
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Thanks the advice Hermes and burnthesheep! i'll start wrenching on it again this weekend. i have some 165 mm cranks i can swap onto the TT bike so i can also play with crank length, thanks for that suggestion as well.
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Old 01-31-20, 09:23 AM
  #700  
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Originally Posted by gerundium View Post
Thanks the advice Hermes and burnthesheep! i'll start wrenching on it again this weekend. i have some 165 mm cranks i can swap onto the TT bike so i can also play with crank length, thanks for that suggestion as well.
FWIW, I am 6' tall with long legs and arms. I use 172.5 mm cranks on my road bike and 165 mm cranks on my track pursuit bike. Currently, I have 172.5 cranks on my TT bike but plan to change them to 165. My fitter / aero tester at Velo Sports Center told me that the New Zealand national track team showed up with 155 cranks that they wanted to aero test. In general, but not always, shorter cranks result in lower CdA. YMMV.
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