cyccommute 

Having had to replace many headset in mountain bikes during the rigid/threaded headset era, I can tell you that the failure that I am describing is not a lubrication failure nor strictly due to vibration. The failure could happen in a single ride with a new headset. Up to the point where threadless headsets became ubiquitous, headset loosening was a major problem, especially in mountain biking. There was a large cottage industry during that era of making locking mechanisms to keep the threaded headset tight. Unfortunately the locking mechanisms had only limited success. A loose headset in a situation where there is serious stress on the headset that ended with true brinelling where the damage is plastic vs corrosive. Yes, the headset is vibrating but the impacts were causing the brinelling.

This kind of damage almost completely disappeared with the introduction of the threadless headset that didn’t loosen due to vibration of the entire headset/fork system. Denting of headsets on mountain bikes can still occur but it is rare and I would certainly agree that, in that system, it is false brinelling.

cyccommute 

I quote posts so as to keep the context. You quite clearly said “my CX racer”. How are we to know that you are talking about someone rather than your cross country racing bicycle?

And you don’t think that in 20+ years of riding I haven’t crossed creeks, wheelied, jumped, nor ridden in winter? I don’t live near a rain forest but I do live in an area where it snows and the aforementioned bike does double duty as a commuter bike on salted, sloppy winter roads. 20+ years is a long time and certainly more than the equivalent of…what did you say again…”every 6 months or less” of hard use.

Good for you. But you did represent this as YOUR bike.

Over multiple years…of even multiple decades and tens of thousands of miles. I don’t baby my bikes…I’ve broken 4 frames. I ride them hard and I keep them running. I’ve just never experienced cartridge bearing failure that you (and many others) claim is so prevalent in that system. Cartridge bearings aren’t as delicate as people make them out to be. They are designed for automobile use where they see far higher loads and stress than they will ever see on a bicycle.


Well muddo, you aren’t everyone either. Frankly, you are the very first person I’ve ever heard complain that cartridge headset bearings fail with any kind of regularity. I’ve been on these forums for a long time and I can’t frankly remember anyone saying that their cartridge bearing headset has failed at all. We’ve had lots and lots of discussions about every aspect of bicycling here and that’s just not a topic that has ever been broached in my experience. It may have been addressed but it certainly isn’t a common problem.

Whatever. Free country and all that.

Kontact 

I was a full time mechanic in that era, and I don't know what you're talking about. Both 1" and 1 1/8" threaded headsets stayed adjusted riding rigid forks by the people that brought their bikes in for service.

Things always seem a bit different in the co-op world.

cyccommute 

Perhaps you were working on the bikes of the people who were riding their mountain bikes on pavement. My experience with mountain bikes and headset loosening vastly predated my experience in the co-op world. BikePro.com is a “frozen in amber” catalog from the days around the introduction of the threadless headset. They have many examples of headsets with built in locking mechanisms like an American Classic Trilock which says in the copy “…steerer to head thread contact, the bolts, and the mated tapered surfaces all work to hold the headset more rigidly than the common one piece "tighten-against-the-threads" style of locking headset.”. There’s also the Onza Mongo and the Diacomp/Crane Creek Threadhead. You can find other examples like this YST or this Tangle Loose Proof headset lock. The locking mechanisms could be something as simple as essentially a threaded shaft collar or a locknut with a screw. You can even buy a similar product to day from Chop Saw. Granted some of the locking mechanisms that are shown are from a BMX on-line museum but they are very similar to what we used before the wide spread use of threadless headset.

By the way, you can just stop with running down bicycle co-ops. They work on the bikes that you paid mechanics won’t touch. Keeping a broken down bike…piece of junk or just old bike…running is far more difficult than working on the latest and greatest. We co-op mechanics who volunteer our time to work on these wrecks aren’t any lesser mechanics than someone who is paid to do the work. Oft times we are tasked with getting a bike working on a nickel and a prayer…with not a modicum of our own resources…while also teaching people how to keep their wrecks working. Not everyone can afford $75/hour shop rates.

I’ve also taught a lot of people how to be professional mechanics as well as just competent home mechanics through courses that I developed personally. I may not get paid to work on other people’s bikes…and I often pay my own money to get other people’s bikes to working…but that doesn’t mean I’m not a good mechanic just because I volunteer at a co-op.

Finally, just to be clear, I have nothing against bike shops nor bike mechanics. I try and steer people who are looking for bikes and bike parts to those shops. But I also don’t consider every bike mechanic I’ve ever met to be a great mechanic. I’ve met a whole lot of bad mechanics.

Kontact 

Perhaps you were working on the bikes of people who don't know how to work on bikes - and shouldn't.


OBVIOUSLY, I was working on all sorts of MTBs during an era of huge interest and a tremendous amount of trail riding. Not only were many of my customers riding off road and jumping their bikes by their own description - I was one of them. So your suggestion is just insulting nonsense.


As with the old Alpine spoke thread, you always seem to misinterpret the marketing of items as proof that they are necessary because standard bike parts are flawed. And just like in that thread, I will remind you that lots of products exist because enough people bungle doing things correctly.

cyccommute 

If loosening headset weren’t a problem, why were there so many locking mechanisms? Why was the threadless headset invented? Don’t believe me? Would you believe James Rader, the inventor of the threadless headset? This is from an article on in Cycling Tips on the invention of the threadless headset regarding the threaded headset lock nuts: “…those two nuts were prone to loosening on rough terrain…” It also has ad copy from the Ahead Threadless and Threadset headsets that says “the Threadset system reduces front end hassles by engineering out the unreliable lock rings and nuts found in traditional headsets.” And from US Patent 5095770 which was the patent for the threadless headset


The patent is from 1990 so, obviously, it was a known problem fairly early on.


I’ll remind you that a whole lot of products also exist because the original product just wasn’t up to the demands…even if people don’t screw them up. You do know that inventions are made to address problems, don’t you? Often an invention is necessary because the standard bike part is flawed. Not all of them, but many are a superior replacement for the previous equipment. Spokes with thicker heads are stronger than standard spokes. If the rider has a problem with breaking spokes, they are a very good solution. Threadless headsets are a demonstrated solution to the problem of loosening headsets. Threadless headsets have other advantages in terms of assembly but they are vastly superior to threaded headsets.

Kontact 

Of course headsets can loosen up. So can everything - including aheadsets. Especially on carbon steerers if the plug can move. These problems are compounded by incompetence.

Incompetence is not an excuse to re-write history that everyone's headset was loose up until 1994. Just like the guy who insisted that all freewheel axles bent or broke. Or the guy who thinks 2.0 spokes tend to break.

No headset locking device ever became standard equipment for any popular bike brand or popular headset supplier.


I installed a threaded Ritchey headset on my commuting bike two years ago. Steel fork, 23c tires, pot holes and curb jumps - it hasn't moved. Same with my first two MTBs. Locking cones via the threads is a norm on bikes and other industries that works. It just doesn't work when parts are damaged or the mechanic doesn't do their part. Those folks might enjoy an aftermarket accessory.

StanSeven

Hey guys, let’s stop the one on one bickering and get back to helping the OP

smd4

Yeah, gotta say, loose headset nuts were not a serious problem back when I was wrenching. Still isn’t for me. That said, the elegance and simplicity of the Aheadset was revolutionary at the time.

Kontact 

The OP should ignore all the advice that there is something wrong with his retained ball threaded headset and replace the retained balls.

Or just add fresh grease.

cruiserandmax

So I disassembled the bearings (they were caged bearings) and cleaned all the parts. The bearings and races all look smooth and feel fine when moving against each other- so I'm thinking I will just re-grease them and re-assemble. However I didn't pay attention to which cage came from the top vs bottom, and both cages are the exact same diameter, using the exact same size balls, but with a different number of balls!!%@$# Either set will fit in either race and move smoothly. Is there a reason to have more balls on one end vs the other? I'm thinking maybe the bottom end potentially gets more force impacted (even though once clamped they are in fixed width spaces) so maybe the higher number of balls goes on the bottom?

FBinNY 

Yes, all things being equal, you'd want more balls in the lower bearing.

JohnDThompson 

When I was with Trek (1980-86), steer tubes were trimmed to allow 42mm stack, plenty for just about any headset. It's easy to add spacers if you use a shorter headset than necessary, but if your headset is taller than the available stack, you're SOL.

maddog34

use the one with extra bearings in the bottom.. it carries the highest loading.. the top bearing mostly just stabilizes the steerer.