Moisture

I think my current saddle is a good width for me.

It may look like it in the photos, perhaps my seat is a little high to compensate for 175mm cranks arms instead of closer to 185-190 like I need.

But with my feet inside the strap in pedals, id say I'm actually just shy of optimal leg extension (a little more than just a slight bend in the knee)

With the way i ride, I guess saddle sorness on long rides is inevitable.

How would you guys suggest I go about getting a slightly more stretched out position on a future bike build? When I was using a 60mm stem instead of my current 40mm I didn't like it. So by playing around with chainstay, top tube and reach angles, i should be able to lower my stem a little and get more streamlined. Right?

Koyote

(I've asked this before when you are carrying on about how "perfect" your bike is, and I will ask again: what is your frame of reference? How many other bikes have you ridden? What bikes have you ridden? How did they differ from this one?)

Moisture

Not enough experience with other bikes to have any half decent baseline.

Youre right, the larger crank arms won't help you sit lower. Your legs will just move in a full circle an extra x mm more in every direction.

I am basing my fit in the bike mostly based on the bikes handling when pushing the tires to the limit of adhesion. Right now I get a balanced response front/rear and the bike will eagerly yet controllably oversteer in the right circumstances.

In terms of power trasnfer, while I can definrtly put out some serious power on this bike, its too upright from an "optimal" perspective. But like I've said before, I don't want to be leaning forward (or backwards) any differently than I am in this photo.

While I dont think my Norco is a "bad" fit, something about it is just shy of being perfect (ie. Streamlined but with the balance im looking for)

Koyote

There's the key.

If you don't have a "half decent baseline," then you have no basis AT ALL for all of the claims you make about your bike's near-perfect fit, it's sublime ride qualities, "the perfect shift," and all of that. Sit back, read, ride, ask questions, and stop pretending to be an expert.

Moisture

The only way for me to learn is by having access to a broad variety of different 61cm road bikes and getting to tinker with all of them to my hearts desire.

Not releastic. I make due with what I have.

Will keep my ideas to a minimum. Im here to learn, which is why I don't get offended to complain to mods.

Darth Lefty 

What prevents you from leaning forward like normal? Back, wrist, seat pain? Anxiety about handling? Why do you want weight further back when you are already halfway to a wheelie?

Your saddle is too high.

guy153

That's an interesting fit I think quite like what was considered normal for a regular Dutch or British bike some decades ago.

There's a guy called Nick Maclaren who used to post to uk.rec.cycling.moderated, possibly still does, who is always complaining about the fit of modern bikes. I think he's very tall and also likes his seat super high, so toes down, and quite upright, but I may have remembered wrong. He has all kinds of reasons why this is better which I didn't always entirely follow but he seems like he knows what he's talking about.
​​​
This is the sort of thing :
​​​​​https://groups.google.com/g/uk.rec.cycling.moderated/c/zsxCng-Mf40/m/XqqqpKaoZIUJ

I don't know the full theory but I think it's very high and laid back saddle with a straight back. He says you can ride for 10 hours like that in comfort.

Koyote

With proper bike fit, almost anyone can ride for ten hours without having to look like Mrs. Doubtfire.

Carbonfiberboy 

Yeah, Moisture's not-Unique Frame Fit

Below is a typical Amsterdam cyclist, including the pretty girl part and earbuds. One of the more useful aspects of this position is that it's so much easier to text. But seriously, this is the preferred transportation fit. Note the pedal in the instep - that's normal. There seem to be two fit choices, like below and with a slightly lower saddle to allow both feet on the ground while sitting. Otherwise, everyone not wearing a jersey looks like this. Visibility is excellent, both seeing and being seen, and one can wear a skirt or a greatcoat with no impediment.



The downside of the transportation position vs. the recreational position is that the cockpit is cramped and your weight is forced well back. It's hard to get your weight over the downstroke pedal while seated, and there's no room to stand. The above bike is perfectly suited to Amsterdam transportation, no climbing, heavy bike traffic, and lots of stopping. There's little glute or hamstring involvement. Grab a glute or hamstring and try doing a half-squat, first with torso upright and then bent over in the road bike position. The whole posterior chain, including back muscles, is missing in the transportation position..

Recreational riding is about having fun, and having fun includes going fast and covering distance. If we had to ride like the above for sport, I don't think many of us would be doing it. There's just nothing like hammering up a hill, out of the saddle and in the drops. Plus, it makes you stronger. It's not just going faster, it's also becoming fitter and staying fit.

mack_turtle

this is what I was getting at when I said...

so Moisture, you are, of course, free to do whatever you want, but if you're going to suggest that your specific style of bike fit is worthwhile, for what is it worthwhile? fitting a bike for going short distances on city streets at low speed is probably best optimized in the way you did it. but you make a bunch of claims about the performance characteristics of that fitting that don't gel with the reality that everyone else experiences. for most of the people who spend time being concerned about optimizing the way their bike fits, a bolt-upright, Dutch cruiser style fit is not of much use to them because they need a bike that can be fast, comfortable, and stable for long hours in the saddle. if all you're doing is zipping a few blocks across town with a latte in one hand, it really doesn't matter how your bike fits, so it might as well be laid back like you're sitting in a desk chair. but for the people who read this forum and are recreational riders, we need something totally different. the priorities are different, so the results are different. presenting your perspective to the general audience of this forum as if it's universally awesome is like telling someone to use a table knife to perform (recreational) brain surgery when what they need is a precision made scalpel. (it's a metaphor, don't read too much into that.)

I challenge you to keep pushing the limits of what you can do on that bike. try riding 50, 75, and 120 km on it at one time. monitor how long you can hold a 30km/h pace. think about what muscles are sore after a longer ride. you will probably then start to understand why the rest of us are confounded by the conclusions you think are so profound, and why we do the opposite of what you're doing to keep riding bikes fun for us, and not a chore.

Koyote

Moisture described his fit as follows: "This fit is extremely effective from a power transfer and handling perspective..."

It's very difficult to take him at all seriously.

Rage

I really think it’s more a matter of inexperience/naďveté rather than trolling here.

When I first met my wife, she hadn’t been on a bike since she was a kid. Her words.

But she took to cycling very quickly.
Got a couple different bikes now, with favorites and everything.
Does tours, centuries. Commutes to and from work.
Before the pandemic, we used to do this nightly loop from my apartment in Manhattan’s financial district onto the Brooklyn bridge, through downtown Brooklyn and back into Manhattan on the Manhattan bridge. If she was feeling sassy, we’d extend our ride up to prospect park or Central Park or the GW bridge. Sometimes we’d head up to Coney Island.
Anyway, pretty strong cyclist, especially now. We’re still out there putting down mileage, only on Staten Island/NNJ/the Jersey shore until the city comes back.

Thing is, back when she was just getting a feel for cycling, she insisted for like a year that her bike had to be set up just like Moisture’s. Didn’t matter what kind of bike, it could have been a cruiser, a mountain bike, a road bike. She had to be in that exact same position on whatever bike she was riding.

Took a lot of time in the saddle but she eventually figured out the proper fit for specific bikes. That upright cruiser type style for her English three speed, in the drops on a road bike, and so on.

She’s progressed to the point where she will now advise her friends on proper saddle height and such when they’re out riding together.
She’ll say stuff like, “I did it like that when I started too but...”

Pretty sure Moisture will eventually come around as well.
In the meantime, it might be a good idea to not come off like an authority on the subject all the time. Just saying...

Moisture

I feel like I have a lot of weight in my upper body, particularly on my left side. Compared to many of you, I can clearly feel that I need to lean forward to weigh my front wheel much less. I only "need" a short cockpit to otherwise weigh the front end the same amount.

It is a combination of those different factors. My back gets sore, I feel too much weight in my wrists (only if my stem is substationally lower than it is now), and worrying about the front tire slipping prematurely, yes.

The biggest reason here really, is that it becomes difficult for me to subconciously keep my weight off the saddle/ bars and into the cranks the entire time I am riding. When I am mindful of the way my weight is biased, I can definetly ride with a lower handlebar, although nothing significant.

I will begin to gradually lower my stem and focus on keeping weight off the wrists.

As I have said before, while my riding position may look very cruiser ish, that's not the way I feel or handle on this bike, at all. Leaning forward, such as during a climb or when sprinting quickly gives me enough leverage over the cranks to active my posterior chain

Koyote

The left side of your upper body weighs significantly more than the right side? wtaf?

The second statement that I put in bold font indicates that your fit is all wrong. As has been pointed out repeatedly to you.

Your fit makes a cruiser look like a race bike.

Darth Lefty 

He doesn't need to hear from the best fitters in the field. He needs any average bike sales guy. Or just read or watch any average bike fit guide like this one


He also doesn't need to try a variety of frames, because the one he's got is perfectly average and inoffensive... if it were being treated normally.

Carbonfiberboy 

Oh c'mon folks. This is interesting to me. Something's going on here.

OP, I'm curious about how you got this bike. It's obviously an older bike and you're a big guy. It's not easy to find a just-right used bike. Or have you had this bike since you were a kid? Anyway, the fit you've come up with might very well be the best that can be done on that bike. I'm curious to know if this is the case, so . . .

Try this:
Go to an online bike fit website, this one: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/S...ulatorBike.jsp
Specify that you want a road bike fit in inches.
Put in all your dimensions. You may need to have someone help you get the measurements. Choose the competitive fit.

You'll get a long series of measurement for your prospective bike. You're really only interested in top tube length, which is really effective top tube length as many bikes now have sloping top tubes.. Everything else can be modified.

Compare that top tube length result to the length of the top tube on the bike you have. That length is measured along the center of the top tube, between the centers of the seat tube and head tube.
How does it compare? Report back.

Darth Lefty 

2mm! hahaha, more like three inches

base2 

Ouch.

The problem, that is if you are intending anything other than short errands around Amsterdam...The problem is your core is doing nothing.

Your butt is sore in an hour or 90 minutes because it is taking an unfair portion of your weight.
Your wrists are sore because the bars are literally pushing you back. Your wrists, arms, neck & shoulders are doing the supporting that ought to be done by your core.
You may feel powerful in this position because your quads are doing all the work. It's easy to think you're powerful when your favored muscles are compensating for musce groups that are not being engaged. It seems like it makes sense. "I feel this muscle working, it fatigues, I must be stronger" People who are sedentary in lifestyle & spend a significant amount of time sitting tend to have undeveloped, disengaged gluteal muscles. (Ref: Old-man shuffle.)

The solution to all of this is engage your core to actually support your body by setting your saddle height & set back to a reasonably appropriate place. Then take the weight off your hands/wrists/shoulders/neck by moving the handle bars away from your torso. Either down, across, or both. If done right, your core/torso is holding everything together & your limbs are sharing a proportional amount of duty. Doing so by enables the engagement of all your lower muscle groups....Making you actually more powerful.

When I was in Amsterdam the Opafiets I bought off a guy on the street had a very similar fit to what you have, OP. It was ok for riding a couple of miles to restaurants/cafés, laundromats, etc...But the 40 miles to the beach & 60 miles to Gouda were really asking a lot out of a days travel. I ditched that bike with a bar tender in exchange for a good night of free drinkin' the night before I left. Good times.

My touring bike came with a similar fit as well. I couldn't get out of it fast enough. Though not "uncomfortable," the ease of getting saddle rawness/sores & being slow AF from all the disengaged muscle groups, sucked.

FWIW: I never took anything Moisture said to be "advice;" only to show what he had done & his logic for doing so.

Moisture

I found the bike used on classifieds. It was in poor condition and I wanted to learn how to restore a bike. I developed a good connection with it. Ive had the bike for 3 months so far and have put about 1500km on it. I mainly bought it because it was already converted to flat bar meaning it had the brake levers I wanted.

The standover clearance is literally - my inseam 885mm, so maybe slightly on the large size, but not overly so. I believe that the top tube length and reach measurements are more or less in line with what I would require.

I tried using the frame fit calculator, but obviously my measurements must've been quite inaccurate. It says my top tube length should be around 55cm.. thats just not right..

the top tube on my Norco is around 58cm. I imagine around 59cm would be the correct size, but no more, considering that I've tried using a tall rise 60mm stem on this bike previously which was comfortable, but didn't work as well as I wanted. My current setup using a 40mm stem with the 58cm top tube is perfect for me.

guy153

Do you need all those muscle groups though? People have experimented with bikes that added arm cranks to the regular leg cranks but basically found that your legs are more than able to drain the tank of whatever actual power you have available. It may be that the big muscles at the tops of your legs are also able to do this on their own.

I agree that Moisture's sensation of a heavy upper body may be to do with weak "core" muscles in some way. Interesting that it's on one side as well.

Another weird feature of old Dutch bikes that I think Moisture might be trying to recreate by putting his seat as far back as possible is the super slack seat angle. This means you can't put your weight into the pedals. But you can pull back on the handlebar and push forwards almost as if riding a recumbent. This would actually use some arm muscles-- you could almost row the bicycle like a boat!

We talk about these bike designs like they're for popping down to the shops on. But back in the days before cars were affordable people used to ride enormous distances and this was the design they came up with. It's hard to compare because anything radically different from what you're used to feels weird.

mack_turtle

That's an interesting data point. But was that a fit recommendation for a mountain/ flat bar bike, or a road/ drop bar bike?

• For a drop-bar bike, an ETT of 55cm would be way too short for someone of your height with any sort of conventional fit. At 5'9", my bike has a ETT close to that with a 90mm stem for a moderately aggressive fit. I have found that something around 54cm works for me and I can fine tune it with a stem in the 80–100mm range. if I need to go much longer or shorter than that, I think the frame is the wrong size for that application. I shared photos of that on a green bike with a 535mm ETT and a 90mm stem above.
• For a flat-bar bike, that's VERY short! That's something you'd design for someone who's under 5' tall.

What calculator did you use to get that?

Moisture

Literally every single muscle in your body is, or at least supposed to be responsible for maintaining good stability. The body has lots of different small stabilizer muscles employed for this very purpose, but larger muscle groups are also working, such as your lats for example.

Your overall core strength as well as your lower back are both active in maintaining stability and work closely together . This is why people with lower back pain still deal with issues in that area even after training their spinal erectors. Training your abs will actually help tighten your backs posture more or less into a more suitable position where the rest of the various muscles in your back can now keep everything tight and in a more reasonable posture. This will certainly help contribute to power delivery.

There is no "option" here, whether you want to use specific muscle groups or not. If you're riding a bike, your whole body is responsible for both stabilizing and transferring power- period. Think of the energy transferring from your body to the bike as being one. You want good direct power and steering inputs to your bike without being overly stiff.

Being forced to stay overly mindful of your posture and which muscles are contributing to stabilization as you ride is obviously not a good thing. But id still rather do that than ride down the road like mr. Arched banana back x floppy noodles.

Carbonfiberboy 

What you say is all good IMO except for the embolded section. One moves one's saddle to get correct balance, though even this assumes that one's upper body is somewhere near its final position. One takes their weight off their hands by moving their saddle, not their bars. One should be able to briefly take both hands off the bars, while pedaling normally, without sliding forward on the saddle. After one has that balance, one worries about reach. If one's position is way out of whack, there might be some back and forth adjusting to do, first one thing, then the other, then back to the first thing, etc.

Your points about what I call "helper muscles" is well taken. That's a good reason to move into any new exercise program gently so as not to get injured because the helper muscles aren't able to keep everything in alignment. Sometimes with a new exercise, the main movers are very strong, tempting one to work them hard, which can be a mistake. I was doing some intervals this week which made my obliques sore, case in point. One has to bring everything along evenly.

Darth Lefty 

Before you control all your muscles you could try lowering your seat.

Moisture

This is exactly what I'm basing my fit off of. I kept tinkering around until I didn't have to lean forward anymore when riding with no hands.

but I already have a bend in my knees at the 6 o clock position. Any lower, and I feel like my knees are put under a lot of pressure and I don't get quite as much power trasnfer. I could raise my seat maybe 4mm higher at the very most to achieve only a slight bend at the knee, which I would prefer not to do specifically for the reason you stated. Right now, my toes are just above the ground when sitting in the saddle.

I would try to lower the seat a little nonetheless, but the auto mexhanic who got my old seat post out shoved one slightly too large in diameter back in, so I'd need the auto body shop's help to get it back out again.