elcruxio

What kind of real world experience are we talking about here? You've lived in every country in Europe? Or have you lived in one country and visited all of the others? Met all of the people? Worked in all of the companies? And done the same thing in the US?

fantom1 

The sports example happens throughout the world and is, to me, more of an evolution rather than a willingness to embrace change or new things. Normally once the new idea actually develops or happens, people will embrace it. Americans just tend to naturally embrace change much faster.

Like you said, embracing the change or simply invention vs implementing change on a large scale depends largely on necessity, $ and politics (which depend on $, so basically its a $ question). In the US we have a huge range of virtually year-round growing as does Mexico which we import from, so it seems like there would be virtually no reason to develop green houses.

Yes, the WWII Germans are the other group who had-mind blowing innovation during the War, albeit for horrible reasons.

Just think about where immigrants go and have gone for innovation and how quickly they integrate- From the co-founder of Google who is a second generation Russian-Jewish immigrant to Tesla, to Musk, to Einstein, to Salk and thousands more. Not to mention the millions of immigrants that have lived, "the American Dream" or rags to riches. This simply doesn't happen nearly as much in European countries because they are not as open to new ideas or outsiders. I realize it might be hard to believe, because before I lived in Europe I also thought the same, but the reality is different.

Many Europeans still have kings and queens which serve absolutely no function other than tradition! In the US we are criticized for not having a culture or history...but that also is because we don't hold onto the past, there is a continual evolution.

In some parts of Europe to be called "ambitious," is a bad thing!

As for those terms like "German engineering", I would agree that they hold some merit as stereotypes, but those are also NA invented marketing terms, which have become so ingrained in the basic NA ontology that many people hold that assumed belief that Europe is a certain way. Regardless, I don't see what that has to do with embracing new ideas. The Germans are well known for not being able to think outside the box or rules for example. As for Chinese manufacturing, that's not really an acceptance of a new idea, its just cheaper right? The development still happens in NA.

Europeans are not as open to risk or change as Americans or NA are. There is a definite effort to maintain the status quo, with the exception of art I guess. We will move for better jobs, change jobs, work outside of our degrees, risk bankruptcy to start a new business, and many more things that the average European would never do because they value stability and security much more. It is a basic part of our ethos that is not ingrained in Europe. Not better nor worse, but different. It even goes down to food. Try to find ethnic restaurants in Europe can be an exercise in frustration. This is changing slowly, but 10 years ago anything beyond pizzas, and curries in England, were very few and far between in most of Europe other than the biggest cities.

Anyhow, cheers, guess there isn't much point of continuing down this road. Hope everyone finds that handle-bars that suite them.


So if I haven't lived in every country in the EU and the US then my point isn't true? Sounds suspiciously like a logical fallacy...I said majority, not an absolute.

Anyhow, since I set myself up for it, I've lived in two EU countries and worked in many more with many people from different European countries. I speak three languages, one native, one bilingual, and one not so good. I can sort of understand a few others as well, least enough to get by. Traveled many as well, though of course not all. As for the US, again, I've lived in a lot of different places. I think since I was 15 I have moved over 30 times...I may not be Marco Polo, but I have a pretty good base to form opinions on.

So, do you have any actual opinion, or are you just calling into view my credibility as a red-herring solely for the sake of it? I see you are in Finland, I was never there and don't think I ever knew anyone from there beyond maybe an acquaintance or something. I would be curious to see if in Finland the opinion of America does not include innovation and/or acceptance of the new and weird.

elcruxio

Interestingly when Europeans do something innovative, it's evolution and not really innovative, but when Americans do it, it's suddenly adopting new innovation and stuff. I smell a bit of confirmation bias but let's go on.

Well, there may be other reasons apart from weather. The Spanish coast is chock full of greenhouses while they still have perfect weather for growing stuff. I'd wager that in the current state of the world it would be beneficial for everyone if farming practices were made more effective regardless of weather conditions.

Not sure if you're pulling the hitler card here, but comparing atrocities usually doesn't end well. But it is a fact that German rocketry had a massive effect in the US space program.

You need to realize that there is actually quite a bit of immigration in the EU but it's mostly from one EU-country to another. There are also vast amounts of immigrants from outside the EU as well, like the middle east, northern africa, former colony nations of some EU countries etc. It's also not to do with embracing new ideas as it is with the fact that the US opened their doors to immigrants because they needed cheap, borderline slave labor to do jobs left vacant by actual slavery being abolished. That's not idealistically embracing the new, it was a cold business decision. Before that it was to fill out areas etc.

Now that the US has no real need for immigration any more the innovation and immigration embracing people of the US have chose a president who is just like them and willing to accept immigrants and new innovations. No wait, was I talking about some separate reality...

And the US has the constitution and bill of rights which are in many European minds just plain ridiculous and harmful. What is a law that cannot be changed, that cannot evolve with the times? The US constitution cannot answer the challenges of modernity and the fact that it will not be changed to reflect current times is holding back the developement of the US legal and cultural system It's like having the bible as a constitution.
In comparison some EU countries still have royalty, but by changing the constitution they have been rendered figure heads of the nation and why not? People like tradition. But having deep tradtitions does not mean that new cannot be embraced. If you think about the political field in general, the US democrats would be considered far right and ultra conservative in a lot of European countries. The EU is in general pretty liberal and hence the EU has a higher standard of living than the US. We can actually implement programs that help the populace (like single payer health care) that would be labeled communist or socialist in the US. Man the labeling stuff socialist just has a whiff of 70's all over it.

Well to be honest, that's very much true in some parts of the US as well so...


That paragraph has nothing else of value but if you were not talking about a people that's predominantly white that statement would be considered deeply racist. However now it's just plain untrue, insulting and harmfully stereotypical. The germans have a reputation because of the Brits ragging on them, but it takes a sense of nuance and sense of humour as well as some experience to realize that all of those stereotypes about germans aren't actually true at all. The Germans are actually well know for their protesting, breaking rules for the common good as well as constantly developing new stuff.

That first part of bankrupcy actually has more to do with the fact that in the States it doesn't mean anything. You can default and you're debt free afterwards. In Europe a personal bankrupcy is not as common or even possible depending on the country and going over debt means you'll be in debt for a long time. Whether or not that is a good thing or not is not really in the scope of this discussion.

The ethnic restaurant comment makes me think whether you've even ever visited Europe. While I've never had trouble finding ethnic restaurants while living in the EU, it needs to be kept in mind that the EU has a pretty nice food culture of it's own and those cultures also mix and match between countries. Having some of our own food culture may eat away some of the ethnic stuff, but not as much as to make it hard to find.





My whole point is that your whole point is absurd and based on stereotypes which in turn are based on nothing at least in the modern world. You cannot quantify or qualify your claims. We can start comparing innovations but there's really no point. Both continents do great stuff these days.

As to what my peers think about the US? Most of my friends see it as an ultra conservative dystopia with vast inequality between different demographics, men and women etc. Then there's the dysfunctional justice system, corrupted politics, violent militarized police force, divide between the rich and poor, people not being cared for when they are sick or leaving them in debt after they have been cared for., Trump.

fantom1 

Sports evolving new tactics or new equipment for the same basic sport is evolution. I could have given examples of new hockey sticks or goalie equipment but that's absurd. Sorry sparky. A new sport would be invention.


They don't have perfect weather, they lack water or in many places have brackish water. 0 for 2, but yes, more and more stable food is a good thing with so many people. But seriously, why are you even saying this as an argument? It has nothing to do with anything that has been discussed, and just shows you are only arguing to argue.


hitler card? WTF are you talking about? Germany single-handedly advanced aviation and rocketry by decades, for the entire world, like I said, "albeit for a horrible cause." Holy smokes, seriously you are showing that you just want to argue for the sake of it by using falsities.


I'm sorry, but this is totally ignorant and wrong. There's literally no point in saying anything more. With this post you have proven that your opinion is worthless in terms of having any validity outside of your own mind, though you are entitled to that of course.

Again, wrong and has nothing to do with anything that has been said.


Again, totally wrong.

1) There are constitutional amendments.
2) Every political scientist pretty much unanimously agrees that the Constitution and Bill of Rights are in the top three of the most important political documents ever created. The only other document that could even be considered is the communist manifesto. Both of which completely changed the world. Anyone that views the Constitution as ridiculous or dangerous obviously doesn't deserve having their opinion heard.
3) Sorry, but holding on to royal families shows a country-wide political and social idiocy, nothing else.


I'm sorry, but it is true. It is also true the Germans are very efficient and value that highly, but that's not racist right? You have never worked with Germans, nor do you have family that works for a German company do you??? In WWII it was well known that without their commanding officers, the Germans were worthless because they couldn't think for themselves. The social stigma and norms in Germany are incredibly strong and few Germans go outside them. Just look at crossing the street for example. You won't see people doing it when they're not supposed to.


Again, ignorant and wrong.

Sorry, based on my (and other's) experiences within the EU. It sounds like you are so thoroughly blind to other places that you are not even aware of your blindness.

Again, you are totally wrong. My whole point is based on personal experience and factual data, contrary to you. Have you ever lived in the U.S.? Yes, both continents do great stuff. Americans are still far more rapid to embrace new things.


First, that is not what I asked. Second, those are wrong and just stereotypes you heard from somewhere, but lets compare countries just for fun:

US has 350-355 million people. It is 9,833,520km2. GDP is $18.75 trillion. That is third in the world for population and third or fourth for size and first for GDP.
Finland has 5-6 million people. It is 338km2. GDP is $237 billion. That is 1.4% of the US population and .0034% of size and %1.23 of the US GDP.

Finland is one of the most homogeneous and least ethnically diverse countries in Europe.
US is one of the least homogeneous and most ethnically diverse countries in the world.

Compared to the top 10 most populous countries, the US is by far the best in your list of stereotypical grievances. Compared to the top 20 it would probably be number 2, 3 or perhaps 1 in most categories behind Japan and Germany.

You cannot compare a country like Finland to the US. Its totally absurd. There are differences and problems that arise in scale of diversity of religion, heritage, wealth, beliefs, etc. which you simply do not have to deal with. Even then, like I said, the US still does exceptionally well for its size.


Honestly you sound like a extreme left millennial with little to no real world experience just spouting off whatever you believe to be true without any thought, research, or experience regarding whether or not it may actually be reality.

elcruxio

Well that was a hateful tirade of spew. It would be wise to continue this in the P&R section but only after you've taken a chill pill.

However, as a general piece of advice, when answering a point made by someone it's usually a good idea to use arguments and possible facts to prove your counter point. When you just say "wrong!" or "false!" you sound like Trump and I can tell you, it's not a good look

Just try to behave next time buddy

fantom1 

Pretentious and arrogant much?

Hateful? Someone has a different point of view, supported by facts and experience, and all you can do is call it a "hateful tirade of spew?" Luckily everyone can read my posts and yours both....

If I didn't provide specific references, its because they are so plentiful and obvious that its not worth the time to try and explain to someone so far from reality.

Oh well, at least there is a good ignore function.

StanSeven

fantom1 and elcruxio,

Please stop with the discussion about nations and politics. There's a separate forum for that. Let's get this topic back to handlebars.

Thanks
Stan

checoles

I'd love to try out some Caseys Crazy Bars! Look interesting, and give some variation

eaglegamma

Probably better to have extra positions available to you, and greater comfort. Agree that you should go with what works for you.

revcp 

[/QUOTE]

A question. Not a challenge, just truly a question. I don't really understand above the bar shifters on a bar that has multiple hand positions as one of its chief benefits. You're effectively removing a hand position, and for many people it's the preferred position. What's the perceived benefit of having above the bar shifters, especially on a touring bike that doesn't require numerous quick shifts? Anyone care to enlighten me?

Happy Feet

Which hand position? You have flats, hoods and upright cruiser. In that pic, if it were me, I might have routed the cable under the bar and put the shifter a bit more outboard to allow resting the palm in the space where the three bars meet but that's just me.

I can't speak for others but it's a factor of cost and reliability. Thumbies work, can easily be worked on and are cheap. Those are some pretty big plusses in touring.

cyber.snow

Got back from Prague and tested the two configurations. The butterfly worked great on the 40+ mile ride that was relatively flat, it claimed the hill just fine but on the single track decline I stopped several times to make changes but never could get comfortable with it. I even carried a couple of different stems. The MTB bar with end bars worked well on everything and I ended up putting it on my hybrid and put the Jones Bar back on the Fargo. I took the bike to Yellowstone for my last cc tour of the year.

I do have to add that I chatted with a number of riders in Prague and saw riders using all kind of handlebars. Choice was mainly determined by cost and not sex or nationality.

satrain18

The reason why he prefer upright townie bars is because, to him, drop handlebars is synonymous with sports. And he disdains sports. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_b...ack_handlebars

veganbikes

What are people's thoughts on say a VO Crazy Bar Surly Moloko or Jones Loop or other seemingly large bars on a really small bike like a 46cm Jamis Aurora frame. I am in the very beginning stages of building one out of an old frame we had on display at our shop for a friend and just want something no drop but also not a single position flat bar.

Also sorry for helping a Zombie I didn't even realize this was a post from a while ago when I was writing it but the question is still valid and someone did already zombie it, not I.

Happy Feet

Personally I think the crazy bars are too big for what they do. If you look at each hand position you could get a way with far less width/length.

Here's a pic of an old mtb I'm currently using for gravel riding. The bars are flipped North Road style bars with 2" cut off each end and some bar ends for a semi aero/hood grip.

revcp 

I'm speaking specifically about the pic in my comment. Generally, Crazy Bars, Jones H, Surly Moloko, etc. Those bars are intended in part as "flat" bars that offer as many hand positions as drops, in some cases more. My bars below, with under the bar shifters, allow me to use the entire bar for hand positions, and I have found the most comfortable hand position for extended time in the saddle has the heel of my palm on the "near" cross bar, my thumbs in the angle and my fingers wrapped over the "far" cross bar. Moving the shifters outboard, even down all the way down to the grips, takes that position away.




For touring, I'm not sure that friction thumbies are more reliable than Deore 9 speed indexed, because one just doesn't shift like a monkey on crack while touring. As for price, a set of Deores run about $50, less on sale. Looks like in the photo the thumbies are IRD, $130 give or take, or Sun Race, probably $50 for a pair. And many people I run into are buying Paul adapters at $90 to pair with new or vintage shifters.

Happy Feet

I think part of the appeal of thumbies is simplicity and the other is pure aesthetic. While most shifters now work well most of the time, there is something about the fact that I can take thumbies apart completely and rebuild/repair them that I like, and on low number cogs like 5-7 or 9 they work good. I also like being able to feather the chainrings. But, I also have two bikes with integrated shifters as you have and like them as well so I could not say one is objectively any better than the other - just depends on what you like. Another point is that with thumbies you can move them independent of the brake to put them wherever you want.

The aesthetic is harder to justify objectively. Some people just like the old school look/function and are even willing to pay a premium for it. My integrated shifters (like yours) did in fact cost about $55 CAD but I have also bought cheap functional thumbies for $15 (though new retros are definitely more expensive). The good thing is, if you can find an old mtb junker the all metal thumbies can be cleaned up and will work just as well as day one. They really will last forever.

I also sometimes ride in the position you indicate but rest my hand over the brake/shifter lever for a wide relaxing grip. In looking at the crazy bar pic I have already said the grip surfaces are way too large. You could reduce the cruiser grip position easily and slide the shifters down, giving the needed room for that cross bar position. Or you could put them inboard near the stem, or at the base of the barend/aero bars. As said, the thumbies allow you to position them independent of the brake.

There is no right or wrong. I would give a bit of weight for ease of use to well adjusted integrated shifters, weight to the thumbies for simplicity, weight to them as well for aesthetic but only at a penalty for cost (if buying expensive retro new ones). I could not argue but a draw either way for basic function.

revcp 

My Deore shifters are not integrated. They are independent of the brake levers. The brake levers have a black bar clamp, bar clamp for the shifters is silver.

Happy Feet

I know, I have the same shifters. I say they are integrated in the sense that brake and shifter are one unit as opposed to the alternative brake/thumbie combos being discussed.

revcp 

I'm completely confused. The brakes are avid, the shifters are shimano. They are not one unit.

Happy Feet

Ah.. I see. They look exactly like a set of combined brake/shifter units. My mistake.

So your point was more about them being below rather than above the bar, as with thumbies. Sure.. that helps, if one only has that position to work with but the point about thumbies being able to sit elsewhere still applies. Have you ever seen your style of shifter positioned anywhere other than right next to the brake lever. I can't say I have. Partly why I assumed they were integrated/combined as one.

DIY masochist

I ride with drop bars, but I never actually ride in the drops. The most I ever do is lean my palm on the bottom to use the bar end shifters. I have cross levers on the top, so I either ride with my hands on the straight part with the cross levers, on the brake hoods, or on the curved part between with my palms facing inward. I never really thought about switching to something else, but those Salsa Woodchippers look interesting. It seems like the drop is shallow enough and flared enough that you could almost use them like an H bar. Although it looks like the flare would make it annoying to lean your bike up against something.

LeeG

longtemp

The 3-speed or mustache road bars are similar to the Jones bar. The 3-speed bar brakes are in the wrong place.

The flat bars have the brakes and shifters for one position. It is upright, so I can see.

Touring bikes with drop bars have unusual height for comfort. I don't want modern road shifter-brake combos. There are so many little parts inside there. I don't want downtube shifters. Downtube shifters are far away from the handlebar.

The touring butterfly bars are strange looking. The hand positions are unusual. The brake and shifter is in a reasonable location.