For the love of English 3 speeds...
08-04-23, 10:26 PM
Full Member
First post here, I've been reading here for years though. I've been in and out of the bicycle hobby several times over the years. My first job though was as a bicycle mechanic back in the mid 70's.
What brings me here now is that last Friday while driving home, I was talking on the phone and not paying attention and ended up passing my street and so I went around the block and came in from the other direction,, about a half mile out of my way. While going that way I found a house with a pile of old bikes, wheels, and parts out at the curb, and an older guy dragging more out as I stopped.
After a short talk, I ended up loading up four bikes, and about 20 boxes of old parts for English three speeds. Mostly bits of old hubs, some spokes, and a few front hubs. Plus a few boxes of calipers, some spare bars, and a few complete hubs I didn't recognize at first which turned out to be 1957 dated SW models labeled Hercules not Sturmey Archer.
One box was all three speed coaster brake hubs, another milk crate was all S5 5 speed hubs and jars full of spare parts. There's enough parts to build a dozen or so hubs just in that box.
It turns out it all belonged to his dad, who passed away over 40 years ago, but his mother, who recently passed, remained in the house.
One box turned out to be all Suntour three speeds and parts, and another all Sears three speeds, but they look like AW clones.
I'll likely be going through all this stuff for the next month or so. For right now I stuck most of it in the basement on a shelf. A lot of the parts are all cleaned and tagged in coffee cans and cigar boxes which tells me the old guy must have been fixing up old bikes or piecing them together from spare parts back in the day.
My big question is, how much weight can one of these bikes handle? I'm a big man these days, 6ft 2in tall and about 380lbs. I miss riding and until I retired I really didn't have the time. Three speed bikes were what I always had as a kid, so its what I'm most familiar with. I guess I could always built a custom HD set of rims if I had too but as a kid, at maybe 250 lbs or so, I really put my bikes to the test. Rarely did I ride on paved roads or trails, and every bike I had was equipped with front and rear baskets for hauling ability.
What brings me here now is that last Friday while driving home, I was talking on the phone and not paying attention and ended up passing my street and so I went around the block and came in from the other direction,, about a half mile out of my way. While going that way I found a house with a pile of old bikes, wheels, and parts out at the curb, and an older guy dragging more out as I stopped.
After a short talk, I ended up loading up four bikes, and about 20 boxes of old parts for English three speeds. Mostly bits of old hubs, some spokes, and a few front hubs. Plus a few boxes of calipers, some spare bars, and a few complete hubs I didn't recognize at first which turned out to be 1957 dated SW models labeled Hercules not Sturmey Archer.
One box was all three speed coaster brake hubs, another milk crate was all S5 5 speed hubs and jars full of spare parts. There's enough parts to build a dozen or so hubs just in that box.
It turns out it all belonged to his dad, who passed away over 40 years ago, but his mother, who recently passed, remained in the house.
One box turned out to be all Suntour three speeds and parts, and another all Sears three speeds, but they look like AW clones.
I'll likely be going through all this stuff for the next month or so. For right now I stuck most of it in the basement on a shelf. A lot of the parts are all cleaned and tagged in coffee cans and cigar boxes which tells me the old guy must have been fixing up old bikes or piecing them together from spare parts back in the day.
My big question is, how much weight can one of these bikes handle? I'm a big man these days, 6ft 2in tall and about 380lbs. I miss riding and until I retired I really didn't have the time. Three speed bikes were what I always had as a kid, so its what I'm most familiar with. I guess I could always built a custom HD set of rims if I had too but as a kid, at maybe 250 lbs or so, I really put my bikes to the test. Rarely did I ride on paved roads or trails, and every bike I had was equipped with front and rear baskets for hauling ability.
08-08-23, 02:27 PM
Newbie
The only belcranks are the stamped style and a bag of what appears to be Shimano belcranks rethreaded to fit Sturmey Archer.
As I go through this stuff it looks like the majority of it is SW parts. He's got dozens of hubs broken down, cleaned, and tagged in old Folgers 5lb coffee cans. Each part has a string and tag on it with a number. It took a while to realize what the numbers were but it seems they were the serial numbers of the bikes they came from. In the bottom of each can he also put a note as to when it was taken apart, and why the bike was parted out. Some of the cans also have caliper parts, front hubs, headsets, and bottom bracket cups and axles.
In the whole lot so far I see enough parts to build about five S5 hubs, and about 30 SW hubs, plus maybe a few dozen AW hub. There are also some odd SA parts in a few cans that I don't recognize. One can has axles which resemble the S5 axle but with a longer driver, larger planet gears and some large diameter springs roughly 1.2" in diameter.
I found two TCW3 hubs but they were in a box with parts marked the same. None of those hubs are complete or worth fixing. There's also two hubs with cogs in place of the spoke flanges, which I figured are likely for a trike of some sort.
There are some belcranks that resemble those in the pic above but they have a larger thread diameter. They are large enough that they slide right over the SA axles. Nearly 1mm larger in thread size. They have some sort of stamping on the arm bracket that looks like a hex shape with something in the middle but its too vague to make out. There's a whole bag of those.
They don't fit Shimano, Suntour, Sears, or Torpedo either. I tried a few loose axles to see what the thread was and they're even too large for a 10mm solid road bike axle, and with a finer thread. They also don't fit New Departure or Bendix axles, (I have a ND Triple Speed on an old balloon tire bike here).
The odd part is that the bell crank threads fit the SA cable, but not the axle threads.
At this point I have no clue what they fit. There's also a box of matching rounded top non-belcrank axle nuts too that match the same thread. Both sides have rounded top shoulders on them and no bevel for a chain like on the SA AW axle nuts.
In my digging around over the weekend, I found two boxes of the little dogs for the SW hubs, at first I didn't see any at all, none were in the cans with the rest of the hub parts. I found a brown envelope with four small rectangle boxes addressed to from Nottingham with 10 1/2d (Pence) dated 1959, with two 3x1x1/2" boxes of half moon dogs for the SW hubs. 36 in each box. Only one box was open with three missing, the other is still sealed on both ends with a parts tag of sorts. The box has no SA markings at all, just a small cardboard lift lid box, similar to what maybe a watch or similar would come in. The envelope is a metal framed manila envelope with a string closure with a June 1959 post mark, and a US customs stamp on the front.Its addressed to a NJ bicycle shop. I can't say if the envelope was originally from those parts or just what someone used to wrap them up in before putting them on the shelf.
I only got two mens frames, and three sets of wheels. One older set of wheels are really clean, the others are borderline rough. There's also a handful of ladies drop tube frames that have been stripped bare. My guess is that's where a lot of the canned parts came from.
As I go through this stuff it looks like the majority of it is SW parts. He's got dozens of hubs broken down, cleaned, and tagged in old Folgers 5lb coffee cans. Each part has a string and tag on it with a number. It took a while to realize what the numbers were but it seems they were the serial numbers of the bikes they came from. In the bottom of each can he also put a note as to when it was taken apart, and why the bike was parted out. Some of the cans also have caliper parts, front hubs, headsets, and bottom bracket cups and axles.
In the whole lot so far I see enough parts to build about five S5 hubs, and about 30 SW hubs, plus maybe a few dozen AW hub. There are also some odd SA parts in a few cans that I don't recognize. One can has axles which resemble the S5 axle but with a longer driver, larger planet gears and some large diameter springs roughly 1.2" in diameter.
I found two TCW3 hubs but they were in a box with parts marked the same. None of those hubs are complete or worth fixing. There's also two hubs with cogs in place of the spoke flanges, which I figured are likely for a trike of some sort.
There are some belcranks that resemble those in the pic above but they have a larger thread diameter. They are large enough that they slide right over the SA axles. Nearly 1mm larger in thread size. They have some sort of stamping on the arm bracket that looks like a hex shape with something in the middle but its too vague to make out. There's a whole bag of those.
They don't fit Shimano, Suntour, Sears, or Torpedo either. I tried a few loose axles to see what the thread was and they're even too large for a 10mm solid road bike axle, and with a finer thread. They also don't fit New Departure or Bendix axles, (I have a ND Triple Speed on an old balloon tire bike here).
The odd part is that the bell crank threads fit the SA cable, but not the axle threads.
At this point I have no clue what they fit. There's also a box of matching rounded top non-belcrank axle nuts too that match the same thread. Both sides have rounded top shoulders on them and no bevel for a chain like on the SA AW axle nuts.
In my digging around over the weekend, I found two boxes of the little dogs for the SW hubs, at first I didn't see any at all, none were in the cans with the rest of the hub parts. I found a brown envelope with four small rectangle boxes addressed to from Nottingham with 10 1/2d (Pence) dated 1959, with two 3x1x1/2" boxes of half moon dogs for the SW hubs. 36 in each box. Only one box was open with three missing, the other is still sealed on both ends with a parts tag of sorts. The box has no SA markings at all, just a small cardboard lift lid box, similar to what maybe a watch or similar would come in. The envelope is a metal framed manila envelope with a string closure with a June 1959 post mark, and a US customs stamp on the front.Its addressed to a NJ bicycle shop. I can't say if the envelope was originally from those parts or just what someone used to wrap them up in before putting them on the shelf.
I only got two mens frames, and three sets of wheels. One older set of wheels are really clean, the others are borderline rough. There's also a handful of ladies drop tube frames that have been stripped bare. My guess is that's where a lot of the canned parts came from.
08-08-23, 04:05 PM
Bikes are okay, I guess.
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Be sure to check the size on those. You could get them in the 23" size, a real find for taller riders. I got one for the day when I'll no longer be able to swing a leg over a diamond frame.
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08-08-23, 05:14 PM
Count Orlok Member
Someone buy this Rudge and restore it: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...5864223761263/
Even has the Hand Chainwheel
Even has the Hand Chainwheel
08-09-23, 10:18 AM
Palmer
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The SunTour 3-speed is an actual Sturmey AW, 'badge engineered' (private labeled & manufactured by S-A under the radar).
The Sears 3-speed is a copy of the Swiss-made Scintilla hub, the Scintilla itself an AW copy. There is some replicative fading in these hubs. Some engineering details are not as good and parts are not guaranteed to interchange with the Sturmey. The Sears was made by Steyer-Daimler-Puch in Austria. These Steyer hubs are also found marked "Schwinn Approved" on bikes from the SW debacle era.
The Hercules SW was a badge engineered hub built by S-A.
SWs exist in two versions, the original, manufactured from 1954 to around October, 1958, and the improved Mark II, beginning around November '58 through 1960.
The official history is that the production of the AW ended in 1956 and restarted in 1958. Hmm. Well, who am I to dispute the official history?
The Sears 3-speed is a copy of the Swiss-made Scintilla hub, the Scintilla itself an AW copy. There is some replicative fading in these hubs. Some engineering details are not as good and parts are not guaranteed to interchange with the Sturmey. The Sears was made by Steyer-Daimler-Puch in Austria. These Steyer hubs are also found marked "Schwinn Approved" on bikes from the SW debacle era.
The Hercules SW was a badge engineered hub built by S-A.
SWs exist in two versions, the original, manufactured from 1954 to around October, 1958, and the improved Mark II, beginning around November '58 through 1960.
The official history is that the production of the AW ended in 1956 and restarted in 1958. Hmm. Well, who am I to dispute the official history?
Last edited by tcs; 08-09-23 at 01:12 PM.
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08-09-23, 11:51 PM
Newbie
There are five ladies frames that are stripped of all parts, they're tagged with the model year with the matching forks zip tied to the down tubes. The guy had wire rods strung between the rafters in his basement with the frames hanging from their rear dropouts.
I started going through more of the coffee cans last night, the parts count is growing, with about 20 AW hubs so far.
All the rims are 32/40, I've not found any 36h rims in that lot. There are more front rims than rears. If I had more 32/40 rims, i could put more of these back together.
I did find two 21" 26" wheel ladies Sprite frames, both are likely the sources for some of the S5 hub parts. I didn't match up the numbers yet though. I've not yet determined if the parts in the coffee cans are bikes that got stripped and scrapped, or are some from the bare frames.
The S5 hubs that were in the box, separate from the rest are all low spoke count hubs, and in really bad shape, one is seized up, another is worn so bad that I don't see any usable parts inside, one has the left side of the axle ground off as if were dragged down the road under a car, and another is rusted solid. One has some sort of sealer all over it, as if some one glued it together or tried to seal up a leak. It looks like silver gutter caulk. I put that one and the seized hub in an old pickle jar full of gas to soak. I'll deal with them later, meanwhile I'll let the gas do its thing.
The total number of coffee cans is more than I had first guessed, so far I've dumped out and gone through 71 cans, and there's still five boxes in the garage I've not opened.
21 cans had pedals and bottom bracket cups, axles and bearings all tagged with a serial number on a piece of tape. There was no order to how they were stored, other than all the hubs and parts were in one area, all the pedals in another, all the cans with chains in another. Then I found one wood box with a roll of bulk chain marked only "Made in England".
The spool has square flanges with rounded corners and is in a box 8x8x9". Its standard 1/2x1/8" chain. There's a box of 50 master links in small envelopes in that same box.
What I'm realizing is that there's very few handle bars, saddles, seat posts, and wheels vs the number of hubs and frames. There's a good number of Raleigh Sports cranks, even a couple in boxes that look new.
The guy also had boxes of old Kirby vacuum cleaners and parts too, I managed to get the seller to give me a minty clean 1950's model just like we had at home as a kid, and its like brand new. I'm sure someone into that stuff would really appreciate it but I can't say I know anyone into antique vacuum cleaners.
It appeared that the guy was re-assembling vintage vacuums and turning his one room into a vacuum cleaner museum of sorts. There were dozens of them.
I'm hoping all the cans that got boxed up and all the tubs are just bike parts.
08-13-23, 08:02 AM
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I'm just finishing up with a build that has a Sturmey Archer BF front drum hub, and a TCW.
I took it for a test ride and everything performed well, but when I got home the front wheel was loose (bearing setting loose).
I have to admit - I don't know how to set these up properly! I've done it once before with my DL-1, but I can't remember how I did it and can't find any on-line advice. I'm sure I printed something out at the time, but I can't find that either
Does anyone know how to set the bearings with these? It's a mid-50's BF
I took it for a test ride and everything performed well, but when I got home the front wheel was loose (bearing setting loose).
I have to admit - I don't know how to set these up properly! I've done it once before with my DL-1, but I can't remember how I did it and can't find any on-line advice. I'm sure I printed something out at the time, but I can't find that either
Does anyone know how to set the bearings with these? It's a mid-50's BF
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08-13-23, 08:35 AM
Old Boy
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It's time to get the old (Club-) man out on the road again. We missed the Lake Pepin Tour this year, but we have the Tour de Saint Paul to look forward to this Autumn.
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__________________
Roulez pour la joie, jamais pour la douleur.
USMC 1981-1991 Semper Fi!
Roulez pour la joie, jamais pour la douleur.
USMC 1981-1991 Semper Fi!
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08-13-23, 09:10 AM
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Someone buy this Rudge and restore it: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...5864223761263/
Even has the Hand Chainwheel
Even has the Hand Chainwheel
__________________
Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
08-13-23, 09:29 AM
Count Orlok Member
Yes, with that chainwheel, and two fender struts per side, it looks like late 1950's, but the two double gold bands sets on seat tube is reminiscent of Raleigh Sports ten years later. Maybe that scheme was more long-lived. The bike looks in nice shape. (Don't let that dust fool you).
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08-13-23, 12:54 PM
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Well.., mine is a '62 and though it does have the soldered ends on the brake cables (no cable anchor bolts), it has only one fender spar per side in the rear. Mine does not have the Ulster "hand" chainwheel. (It is the regular, six-arm C34-type).
__________________
Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
08-13-23, 03:28 PM
The dropped
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Pedal spindle
Good afternoon, fellows.
I started to tear down the 1969 Raleigh Superbe this week and noted the the spindle on the drive side pedal appears bent. I've included a few pictures of the type, and I'm wondering what other pedals out there use the same spindle so I can narrow my search down. I'm hoping there's a long history for the spindle and many other models to look for.
Rebuildable Raleigh block pedal
Bearing access
Threaded pins in the blocks, short threading for steel crank arms.
I started to tear down the 1969 Raleigh Superbe this week and noted the the spindle on the drive side pedal appears bent. I've included a few pictures of the type, and I'm wondering what other pedals out there use the same spindle so I can narrow my search down. I'm hoping there's a long history for the spindle and many other models to look for.
Rebuildable Raleigh block pedal
Bearing access
Threaded pins in the blocks, short threading for steel crank arms.
08-16-23, 02:05 PM
The dropped
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Well, I've confirmed that the pedals are the 4" block style, and that there aren't any in the bins at the local bike co-ops. Looking at prices on Ebay seems to show that I'd be buying a nicer set of pedals for anywhere from 1/3rd to 3/4s of the price I paid for the bike. I found several nice French rat trap pedal sets still attached to their cottered cranks in some bins, so I might clean those up instead. I think I'll post an ISO in the classic ISO thread for a spindle and see what happens.
08-17-23, 11:42 AM
Senior Member
Woohoo, fixed the various Royal Scot problems (shifting, two flats, stripped axle nut) and dialed in the ergos. Now it's an everyday fun city bike. I found excuses to run three separate errands on it yesterday. It's an absolute kick to ride!
I inherited it with the high bars which I thought looked all wrong but feel perfect at 5'10".
With the UNO setback (24mm) seatpost I installed this week, I was able to fit a B67, forced into the max rear position, right where I need it. And the springs are great and really make for a comfortable ride.
I inherited it with the high bars which I thought looked all wrong but feel perfect at 5'10".
With the UNO setback (24mm) seatpost I installed this week, I was able to fit a B67, forced into the max rear position, right where I need it. And the springs are great and really make for a comfortable ride.
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08-20-23, 06:09 PM
Senior Member
Sixty-fiver...
Is sixty-fiver still "around"? I sent him a PM withmy email, but no reply.
Thanks for info.
Thanks for info.
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08-20-23, 09:09 PM
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1957 Rudge
I found this beautiful almost all original 23 inch Sports at a local monthly flea market. I now have a project for this winter! There were two others giving it quite the looking over even before I got it loaded on the truck!
edited to add:
Rear hub states 57 SW. May have to find an AW to lace in later. We'll see
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08-21-23, 05:23 AM
Full Member
Very nice Rudge, paint and saddle look good. I am rooting for you to be able to keep the original SW.
Keep us posted.
Keep us posted.
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TigerTom
TigerTom
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08-21-23, 06:26 AM
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I found this beautiful almost all original 23 inch Sports at a local monthly flea market. I now have a project for this winter! There were two others giving it quite the looking over even before I got it loaded on the truck!
edited to add:
Rear hub states 57 SW. May have to find an AW to lace in later. We'll see
edited to add:
Rear hub states 57 SW. May have to find an AW to lace in later. We'll see
__________________
Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
Last edited by 1989Pre; 08-21-23 at 06:42 AM.
08-21-23, 06:42 AM
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Woohoo, fixed the various Royal Scot problems (shifting, two flats, stripped axle nut) and dialed in the ergos. Now it's an everyday fun city bike. I found excuses to run three separate errands on it yesterday. It's an absolute kick to ride!
I inherited it with the high bars which I thought looked all wrong but feel perfect at 5'10".
With the UNO setback (24mm) seatpost I installed this week, I was able to fit a B67, forced into the max rear position, right where I need it. And the springs are great and really make for a comfortable ride.
I inherited it with the high bars which I thought looked all wrong but feel perfect at 5'10".
With the UNO setback (24mm) seatpost I installed this week, I was able to fit a B67, forced into the max rear position, right where I need it. And the springs are great and really make for a comfortable ride.
__________________
Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
08-21-23, 07:14 AM
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I found this beautiful almost all original 23 inch Sports at a local monthly flea market. I now have a project for this winter! There were two others giving it quite the looking over even before I got it loaded on the truck!
edited to add:
Rear hub states 57 SW. May have to find an AW to lace in later. We'll see
08-22-23, 08:04 AM
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08-22-23, 08:09 AM
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Location: South central Kansas
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. The wind can be challenging, but I grew up with it out in western Kansas, so I am used to it. The only thing I don't care for is riding in the rain.
08-22-23, 08:52 AM
Standard Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brunswick, Maine
Posts: 4,272
Bikes: 1948 P. Barnard & Son, 1962 Rudge Sports, 1963 Freddie Grubb Routier, 1980 Manufrance Hirondelle, 1983 F. Moser Sprint, 1989 Raleigh Technium Pre, 2001 Raleigh M80
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1989Pre , Thank you sir. I am going to attempt to salvage the seat, but if it fails and I cannot get it re-leathered, I have your information written down and will pm you about the badge.
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Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
Unless you climb the rungs strategically, you’re not going to build the muscle you need to stay at the top.
08-22-23, 09:02 AM
On the road
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 2,176
Bikes: Old Schwinns and old Raleighs
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This 1959 Schwinn tall frame came as a bike core to me - frame, fork, and chain guard. The fork needed a little straightening at the steerer tube. The Park HTS-1 can be adapted as a fork pusher in at least some instances (thankfully this is one of them). And fortunately, I had many of the parts in my bins, so I managed to get it back together. It has that classic 1950s American-made look: lots of chrome and stainless steel bright work. The fenders are polished stainless steel. These are heavy but comfortable bikes to ride. They're not exactly sporty compared to a Raleigh, but it's a little different take on the style of bike. There is still a little cosmetic work to be done here and there, but it's a good rider.
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Classic American and British Roadsters, Utility Bikes, and Sporting Bikes (1935-1979):
https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/
Classic American and British Roadsters, Utility Bikes, and Sporting Bikes (1935-1979):
https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/
08-22-23, 12:32 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,648
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I know little to nothing about 50s American bikes, so what is it that makes this Schwinn less sporty than say a Raleigh? Is it solely weight? I have to say the fork crown on your bike is gorgeous; and the brakes look to me like they might work better than the typical steel British side pulls….
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