Thomas1

How should the decal with the info on frame material be read? Here's a photo from an ad for a Mongoose Maneuver:



I thought the whole frame (with the possible exception of the fork) was 4130 CrMo. However, when I went to bikepedia and looked up this particular model of Mongoose I saw:
Frame & Fork

Frame ConstructionTIG-welded steel
Frame MaterialChromoly seat tube/hi-tensile steel
ForkMongooseFork MateralHi-tensile steel, unicrown crown
Rear ShockNot applicable
https://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/BikeSpecs.aspx?item=56429

I'd rather not buy a bike with a hi-tensile frame. So which description is correct? Or maybe I'm not aware of something included in either piece of information, in which case I'd appreciate any additional tips.

unterhausen

Factories put whatever stickers on it they think will sell more bikes. That sticker might just apply to the seat tube like bikepedia says. Factories have played games with this since the advent of stickers. I only know this because the subject comes up in the C&V forum occasionally.

mikeread

When I was real young I went with my Dad to pick up some roof bars for the car. I remember that the bars came in a box covered in Union Jack stickers - my Dad liked buying British and he probably bought it because of this artwork.

When we got home I noticed the label saying 'Box made in the UK' and 'Contents made in Sweden'

So don't believe anything, the sticker will likely be made of 4130, the frame from cardboard :-)

unterhausen

BITD, the higher end tubing companies were fairly protective of their stickers, but I'm not sure about Tange. I suspect they weren't too worried about it as long as they kept getting orders for tubes.

Thomas1

Thanks for your answers.
That's going to be more difficult than I thought it would be. So, how can you tell whether a frame setup you find in an internet ad for a bike is hi-tensile or cr-mo just by the picture of the bike itself (assuming there's no info on that provided by the manufacturer)?

unterhausen

If it really matters to you, you're going to have to research it. Unless it's a classier bike than this one, where you might find Tange Prestige or some other label that has a clear meaning. The 4130 labels were put on mid-range bikes where the designers were pretty cost conscious and so aren't as meaningful. And some factories definitely played tricks with them.

In general though, I think you are taking this a bit too seriously. You're talking about the difference between low-end tubing and a little less low-end tubing. In general it isn't going to make much difference between how the bikes ride.

Thomas1

I see. I'm actually more interested in having a durable, and, to some extent, more lightweight steel frame for an exepedition/touring bike I'm planing on building. From what I've read cro-mo is more durable as well as more lightweight than hi-tensile steel. I also purposely don't want the bike to attract the attention of possible 'new owners'. These are the most important reasons why I'm looking into this type of frames.

unterhausen

there have been a lot of good bikes made from hiten and cromo. I think I would probably look for a bike that other people like for this purpose vs. starting from frame material. I don't think that bike thieves actually care much between bikes, they just look for one that's easy to steal. Having said that, I wouldn't go out and get an obviously collectible bike for this.

Andrew R Stewart 

For an expedition/loaded touring bike I would avoid most classic frames. certainly ones with classic tube diameters. unless pulling a trailer (to borrow from another recent thread). And I would never call most "proper" e/t frames lightweight. Really the pound extra that a good OS tube diameter and not stupid thin walled frame might be over a "sporting" frame is going to be lost in the total load weight but not so much in the ride quality when loaded.

My best touring bike and it's load weighed in at over 100 lbs. Tell me that you could feel 1 pound less, out of the frame... I can tell you that you can feel the lack of stiffness with a real load. It isn't frame weight that gets you up the hills, that's gearing. But it is frame stability that gets you down those hills. (to sort of borrow what Andy H said about descending on whippy uber light frames). Andy

Trakhak

That frame material sticker means exactly what it says: the seat tube is cro-mo, the rest of the frame is high-tensile steel.

By the 1980s, most people who otherwise knew nothing about bikes had learned (in many cases, by reading Consumer Reports) that better bikes were built with brand-name tubing such as Reynolds, Columbus, Falck, etc., and that the buyer should therefore look for bikes featuring a tubing brand sticker. So bike manufacturers began taking advantage of that knowledge by incorporating a single cro-mo tube and adding a frame sticker attesting to the presence of that tube in the frame. Not exactly deceptive advertising, but not exactly not, either.

That practice was just a newer iteration of what some bike manufacturers had already been doing. Peugeot had long used plain-looking stickers indicating the use of "103" tubing, a.k.a. high-tensile steel, for their entry-level frames. By the 1980s, the 103 stickers had been fancied up to look more like Reynolds 531 stickers.

Peugeot also used a slightly higher grade of high-tensile steel called "HLE" for the next model(s) up from the entry level, with a corresponding decal touting its use. The Japanese bike manufacturer Araya, for their entry-level, high-tensile-steel bikes, used an "Araya 631" sticker in the European and U.S. markets, with the obvious implication that, if Reynolds 531 is good, Araya 631 must be better.

Trakhak

A small but fervent proportion of riders who do loaded touring ride Cannondale touring bikes for exactly that reason. Cannondale's aluminum touring bikes exhibit few or none of the characteristics of steel bikes with respect to that wallowing feel on descents while weighing a good deal less than overbuilt steel frames.

People have their reasons for preferring steel frames, emotion-based though they often are, but I know that I'd always prefer a Cannondale for loaded touring.

Andrew R Stewart 

Trakhak- I agree with your Cannondale comments. Generally I dislike their products, have for years. But I'm a small guy who knows how to spin so their frame stiffness is lost on me, except for tandems and touring bikes. But my hammer is an OA torch so steel is my nail. There's no magic in any frame material but good design and application wins over passion. Sometimes the two intersect. That is my goals with my steel building. Andy (who just picked up his freshly painted frame and will share photos soon, but it's not a touring bike)