himespau 

I have my scales directly linked to zwift. Makes me sad sometimes, but it's real. I guess not everyone has a bluetooth scale.

himespau 

I frequently change my name to something like that when I'm trying out a new online video game. I want my teammates to know that I know I'm dragging them down and feel bad about it.

OBoile

If you don't mind me asking, what scale do you use?

MoAlpha

I didn't actually do the ISUCK part—it's clear enough from the numbers—and I need a better name, one which does something clever with the first initial.

Dan333SP

I know people poo-poo on the gaming aspects of Zwift, but I think it's worth mentioning again how absolutely revolutionary Zwift has been for indoor training. I'd bet 90% of sales for smart trainers are specifically for Zwift use, so Kurt/Tacx/Cycleops etc. must be thanking their lucky stars that the game exists. If only I'd had venture capital money to invest in the idea when the creator was posting his early beta screenshots on this forum 5-6 years ago...

himespau 

I use an old withings body that I got because I liked the idea that it would give me the weather forecast for the day when I stepped on it every morning.

billridesbikes

I like the MMO game part, monthly missions, and tours of xyz on Zwift. For me this is engaging and keeps me coming back to the platform and spending more time in the saddle. Other programs I’ve tried it’s too tempting to skip a workout and do nothing. It probably helps that I’ve always liked open ended games like DnD etc.

Psimet2001 

I...have...been TRYING zwift. I have opinions but they are worthless. Like peeing into the wind. I have been trying to take the positive approach and think that it has done a really good job at diverting people's attention for what is the most mind numbing thing one can do on a bicycle - ride it indoors.

What chaps my ass is when people start putting some sort of faith into any of the numbers or experiences they have on this game. It's a game. All of this is driven by people's inherent need to compete and compare themselves to others. We used to have a way of doing that which was the most effective: racing. Real racing with a number on outdoors. People have gotten so afraid of putting themselves out there or performing badly that they flock to seek out opportunities for them to best someone else's mediocrity in an electronic game.

...like I said my opinions are worthless. The faceless enthusiasts of the world who are afraid of actual racing in real life are eating up with abandon. It's strava for indoors.

OBoile

I suspect there is more to it than just being "afraid". Doing a race outdoors requires a considerable commitment of time and money. Doing a Zwift race requires virtually nothing. I can sign up for one starting 15 minutes from now and be back at my "desk" (working from home today) an hour later. No gas or mileage on the car, no entry fee, no hotel and meals to pay for, no time it takes to drive there, check in etc. And finally, there's virtually no risk to my health or equipment, no risk that the weather will suck and it doesn't matter what time of year it is.

Yes, the experience isn't the same, but neither is the cost.

redlude97

The only results that matter are zwiftpower and almost every race doesn't allow zpower at least for podiums, and most require a HR strap. Weight and height are also tracked and power PRs for various durations to somewhat keep people honest. Good enough for me for it to be realistic and keep me in shape for racing IRL

datlas 

Well said and I agree.

Some people take these fake miles/simulated races too seriously. That's unwise. I do some group rides with my friends, who I know IRL I can stay with and even drop, but for whatever reason(s) their avatar is stronger than mine in the fake world of Zwift. I don't care. It doesn't bother me. That's the right attitude. It's a video game that helps your cycling.

Psimet2001 

- Sure ... not "afraid" per se.

Explain it away or justify it in any method needed but the point is that it's a game. A game that diverts one's attention from the fact that they are still riding a trainer with the same resistance we have had for ages. Indoors. Everything else is an illusion as part of a game. It has zero bearing on real life or real life performance.

Psimet2001 

I've been tossing this grenade out there in discussions on zwift lately: the entire system/game would collapse if we all had avatars that more accurately reflected our actual body type and looks. People would kill themselves to "beat" someone doing something just because that person is "bigger" than them. "no one that out of shape is beating me up this hill!"... just like in real life. Whereas now with all of the avatars arguably identical (sure they are different but by 3 body styles and all are ripped) the same situation solicits a "Ride-On".

I mean it's a pretty inane place and still I know women who complain that riders are always trying to ride with them and give them un-solicited pointers. Imagine if the avatars actually reflected how we really look.

Zwift Armageddon.

OBoile

Well, sure. But pretty much every sport is ultimately a "game" when it comes down to it. How much you care about it is entirely up to the individual. This one just has far lower stakes due largely to the very limited sacrifice one has to make in order to compete. That's both good and bad. It's not the same as a real life race, but then, I don't think it really pretends to be and I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that it is.

And, fwiw, I wasn't trying to justify anything.

MoAlpha

My avatar (the asthenic body type) has rolling-pin calves and cankles! Its head is normal shaped and it has hair, though, so it has me there.

rousseau

I'll have you know that I am just as fit and handsome in real life as I am on Zwift!

But you'll have to take my word for it. No further proof will be forthcoming.

Psimet2001 

I constantly see posts in Zwift groups where people are posting the FTP number that Zwift is estimating. They are asking how they measure up and what that means for real life performance and comparisons. I've had people come to the shop and ask about racing in real life and reference how good they are in zwift racing as a sort of resume.

People are competitive in nature. They will always do this. Like how everyone was racing each other virtually by comparing times in segments on Strava. Generally people just don't see that they are in essence trying to compete but just simply refuse to actually compete. In real life. Where the excuses and conditions no longer apply.

Just frustrating.

I used to - still have - an indoor computrainer multi-rider studio. I stopped having my own classes on there long ago but we still have groups of triathletes who still utilize it. old people still prefer it.....because they get it. I'll round back to that.

When people started leaving indoor classes in groups so that they could ride zwift alone at home I took the time to ask all of them why. What the appeal was over riding in class. The general just of it was that riding zwift is more entertaining. Riding a structured workout in class was just too hard/difficult/taxing. Way too hard.

I then quickly realized something: riding a trainer is training. We don't do it for recreation. We do it to cause a training effect. Training is effective when loading the body correctly. While it varies greatly for each person it can be summarized by "going hard enough when you need to go hard and easy enough when you need to go easy". If you aren't going hard enough or easy enough then you are in essence just doing "junk miles". This is nothing new. We have all known this for eons. So if careful structured training is "too hard" and Zwift is effectively easier then Zwift is junk miles. Rather it's ineffective training.

Putting oneself through unstructured make believe racing every day is no way to train. Just riding around and trying to set records is not training. Junk miles.

Now I understand they have workouts. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say these workouts are actually well done training structure. If they are then one thing will start to happen - people will begin not to like them. As structured real training is difficult both physically and mentally. It is why Zwift was invented - to get us away from the hard stuff.

Rounding back - the old guys understand there is no short cut to actual structured training. They understand that even with pretty scenery and graphics - training alone in your basement still sucks and is still harder than doing the right triaining in a class with friends who push you on. "Analog friends" instead of digital ones.

Zwift has been the best at creating a different experience for riding indoors. It has hooked a lot of people who are new as well as provided needed diversions for many that are just burned out. I think in the future we will see more and more who are still training seriously will start to fade out their zwift usage. I am sure they will still use it for diversion days or to sub for doing a group ride. So I believe Zwift has simply created a new niche. It will thrive but at some point those who need to really improve and compete will slowly peel away from it. Zwift has nailed everything that the enthusiast or (for lack of a better term) wannabe racer market though. it is giving them everything they have ever wanted. They have far eclipsed real life racing in that regard.

Dan333SP

That's why most of us take it tongue-in-cheek when talking about "performance" or anything competitive in Zwift, and there's absolutely no harm in that. Like I said, it has been revolutionary for training indoors for many people. The numbers and speed and cheating may not mean anything, but fitness you gain on the trainer is fitness that directly translates into outdoor riding. The guys on my real life team joke about how "zwift fit" people are ruining local cat 5 races because they show up with huge FTPs but have no idea how to actually ride a bike in a group.

We've had threads here before about whether Zwift is "killing" real racing across the US, because local races aren't being run any more and field sizes are down. I think it's a false correlation between Zwift use and real racing interest, the larger cause to me is the general lack of interest in professional bike racing in this post-Lance era.

Dan333SP

Let me rephrase that for you- Anyone who takes real bike racing seriously (young and old) know that there's no short cut to structure and it's going to hurt.

IME, a fairly large majority of Zwift riders are actually using the workouts built into the program (you can see the little icon indicating they're riding a set workout). Whether they're accurately setting their weight and FTP is up in the air, but if they are, they are likely suffering just like the "serious old guys" on their computrainers. People that want to work hard and suffer and see gains will do that regardless of the program or venue for their training, and people that don't want to push themselves that hard will continue to remain stagnant. That's a result of personality, not technology, and I don't think Zwift has anything to do with that.

Psimet2001 

Road is dead but not because of Zwift. Numbers are consistent to improving in many other forms of racing. In general though all sports are starting to pitch down as kids do have way more interest in esports. Indoor racing will follow that trend.

I almost wish there was a way where we could dump all of the real world nomenclature. Turn it into an actual MMO game without using the terms like FTP, power output, etc. Rename all of it, change the graphics to something other than bike riding or a stylized bike riding and level out the racing like they do for group rides and such for PvP. Embrace that it's a game and push it.

I just have problems when Zwift partners with the UCI in their direct effort to, in their words, "legitimize" indoor/virtual racing. That partnership is a direct fail on the UCI side though. They never should have gotten in bed with them. By doing so they have given Zwift racing an air of legitimacy through association. Disgusting really.

Dan333SP

This is a weird thing to be disgusted by, tbh. No one is claiming that Zwift is 1 for 1 directly comparable to real world racing, but the people who are at the top of the Zwift racing ladders are there because they're really extremely fit and most or all of them also race in non-virtual events. It's a perfectly legitimate e-sport, and I think it's smart marketing when they link with the UCI and teams like Canyon-SRAM, who actually just signed a Zwift competition winner to a contract for 2020 on their women's team.

Formula 1 has an e-series that is officially sanctioned by the FIA now as well, and none of the F1 fans or drivers think that it's disgusting that people are racing virtual cars and comparing lap times and braking points on their computer sim rather than in real life. Is the eF1 champion just as good a driver as Lewis Hamilton? Of course not, in fact he would probably be way off the pace in a real car because the physical demands of driving a racing car can't be simulated. However, I'd bet the fastest Zwifter in the world would do just fine in a real time trial against the best pros, because the exertion is the same indoors or outdoors.

OBoile

Well, you would know more about that than I would. I'd be the last person someone should ask about this. And people certainly do like to deceive themselves.
I don't see how this doesn't qualify as competing. If you want to say it's not "bike racing" then yes that's true, but it still is competing in it's own way. And, "excuses and conditions" apply everywhere.


I'm not sure how a structured workout on Zwift is different than a structured workout anywhere else.
Lots of pros do races as part of a training plan. Those aren't any more structured than a Zwift race. As you've no doubt read on the racers' forum, lots of good riders here do the same. Many people will push themselves far harder in a "race", even a digital one, than they would training on their own.
My understanding is that the workouts are mediocre at best, but you can create your own workouts too (what I do) and/or import them from other training programs. Doing x minutes at y% of FTP is pretty much the same here as it is on trainer without the TV on, or on the road.
The same kind of motivation that some people seem to derive from Zwift races? Nothing wrong with riding in a studio like that, but it isn't for everyone and it certainly takes a larger time commitment than riding at home. Why do you think those Peloton bikes are so popular? It avoids the extra 45 minutes you spend travelling to and from the gym.
I fail to see why. I don't see how it is easier, or less effective than any other workout on a trainer. The only difference is there's an avatar and scenery to look at. Alex Dowsett trained on Zwift several times leading up to world's this year.
Zwift was invented to make riding a trainer more enjoyable. I don't see why you think its intent is to get people away from working hard.

Dan333SP

Funny you should mention that... it looks like Zwift is moving into virtual gravel/dirt just like all the former roadies

https://zwift.com/offroad

Apparently steering is now a thing, and it cleverly uses your phone's accelerometer-

https://zwift.com/news/17853-futureworks-steering/

datlas 

Future!!

Dan333SP

Is this the FUTURE of VIRTUAL NOTROAD cycling?