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Mystery bike, Visser Vainqueur?

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Mystery bike, Visser Vainqueur?

Old 09-26-20, 09:30 AM
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alexnagui
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Mystery bike, Visser Vainqueur?

So, I bought this bike which showed up for sale 15km from me last week and caught my attention. The bike has clearly been repainted at some point in its life and misses its decals and has no head badge. A bit of a mystery here... To be honest, I didn't expect to find out about the maker of this bike at all at first. However, the sticker on the front rims clearly says "Verhoeven Hofdijk 8 Rotterdam" which I noticed only today when I took the bike out to take some pictures. Well, the funniest thing about that is that I live not even 500 meters from that address!!! That's quite a coincidence, I would say! The little sticker turns out ot be much more helpful than that. According to Klassiekracefiets, the shop of Teun Visser used to be at that address and Wout Verhoeven worked at his shop and built frames for him. The bikes were sold under Visser Vainqueur marque which I believe could be the bike in question. Is the mystery solved?

It looks like the bike has been neglected for a while but I like how the paintwork looks and I've been wanting to try a taller frame for a change. The seat tube measures 60cm cc, the top tube is 57cm cc. I have to measure the distance between the holes for the head badge so I could check that with a Visser Vainqueur head badge.

By the way, one of VV bikes is to be seen in Museum Rotterdam.



















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Old 09-26-20, 09:33 AM
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A very helpful little sticker.




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Old 09-26-20, 10:32 AM
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-----

Congratulations and yet another wonderful find!

We look to be solidly in the 1960's here.

The left crankarm and rear mech are replacements.

The 3TTT Gran Prix stem tellus us we can no be earlier than 1963.

The Huret 600 Allvit front mech tells use we can no be later than 1965.

You shall be able to read a specific date from the locknuts of the Campag hubs.

IIRC the forum had a thread on another Visser Vianqueur within the past year.

Ah yes, har she be:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ghlight=visser

-----

Last edited by juvela; 09-26-20 at 02:36 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 09-26-20, 10:50 AM
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Nice bike! Thanks for sharing these pix and looking forward to seeing how it cleans up (please do and keep that original paint, it has patina!). You will want to close up the splayed-open slot in the DS drop-out, should be easily done but go at it "slow and careful".
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Old 09-26-20, 10:59 AM
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-----

Wheel rims are NISI Toro (require washers when lacing). Marking likely covered by the blue Verhoeven label.

Frame pump and holder set from Rampinelli (REG). Holder set is item Nr. 376.

If original bottom bracket spindle yet present you should find a two digit number stamped into one of the taper flats. If conveninet, please make an image.







---

His Unfixedness non-fixie is sure to be along momentarily with bushels of outstanding information regarding the cycle and marque.

-----

Last edited by juvela; 09-26-20 at 11:52 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 09-26-20, 02:25 PM
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That is a very, very nice looking bike! Obviously requires some TLC but I think nothing extraordinary. Should look terrific when you've cleaned it up, hope to see more!
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Old 09-26-20, 02:28 PM
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That is a very nice find!

Teun Visser and Wout Verhoeven are both big names from the Rotterdam racing scene. As far as I know Teun Visser sold bikes built with frames that were imported from Belgium by Wout Verhoeven as well as frames built by Jacobus de Jong, a.k.a. "Witte Ko".

You might try to find Wout Verhoeven. As far as I know he is still around. I met him, about five years ago I think, and he was quite willing to answer the questions I had at the time regarding his Belgian frame trade business.

Your frame looks to be really well made. I'd be looking into Witte Ko's work first. He also built for Joco and Springfield.
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Old 09-27-20, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----

Congratulations and yet another wonderful find!

We look to be solidly in the 1960's here.

The left crankarm and rear mech are replacements.

The 3TTT Gran Prix stem tellus us we can no be earlier than 1963.

The Huret 600 Allvit front mech tells use we can no be later than 1965.

You shall be able to read a specific date from the locknuts of the Campag hubs.

IIRC the forum had a thread on another Visser Vianqueur within the past year.

Ah yes, har she be:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ghlight=visser

-----
Thanks Juvela! It's hard to tell at this point which components are original to the bike even it they are period correct. I think the rear derailleur was chosen just because of the red color scheme, obviously someone was paying attention to detial here.

I might have been too fast with my conclusion about the marque of the bike, though. I've seen the thread you mentioned before, however I didn't pay much attention to the head beadge. And that's where the things do not match. The Visser Vainqueur head badge uses 3 pins for its attachement and the head tube of my bike has only two holes. I also found an image of the Verhoeven head badge which is identical to the Visser ones shape wise, so not a match either.


Visser head badge, picture from forum member Locomotief


Verhoeven head badge, image from https://balhoofdplaatje.jimdofree.com/
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Old 09-27-20, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
Nice bike! Thanks for sharing these pix and looking forward to seeing how it cleans up (please do and keep that original paint, it has patina!). You will want to close up the splayed-open slot in the DS drop-out, should be easily done but go at it "slow and careful".
Thanks, I am not sure that the paint is original seeing the fact that the bike comes without decals. The bike was probably repainted at some point which was done very very nicely, the lug lining looks perfect to me.
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Old 09-27-20, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie
That is a very nice find!

Teun Visser and Wout Verhoeven are both big names from the Rotterdam racing scene. As far as I know Teun Visser sold bikes built with frames that were imported from Belgium by Wout Verhoeven as well as frames built by Jacobus de Jong, a.k.a. "Witte Ko".

You might try to find Wout Verhoeven. As far as I know he is still around. I met him, about five years ago I think, and he was quite willing to answer the questions I had at the time regarding his Belgian frame trade business.

Your frame looks to be really well made. I'd be looking into Witte Ko's work first. He also built for Joco and Springfield.
Thanks Maarten, I didn't know where the Visser's shop used to be but it turnes out that it's just around the corner. Too bad it doesn't exist anymore. And yes, I've heard that Visser and Verhoeven are big names here in Rotterdam, or at least used to be.

Thanks for the tip about trying to contact Wout Verhoeven. Didn't know he is still around, he's probably my only chance to find out about this bike more. See my post above about the head badge, the mystery is still there...
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Old 09-27-20, 05:27 AM
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It's a toast, how did I not notice it before???

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Old 09-27-20, 06:54 AM
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-------

Noticed it straightaway but was hoping it would turn out to be a piece of material placed there to protect the finish from the pump holder clamp.

Such nice work on the joinery of the taper tubes to the ends...

Let us know how you decide to proceed.


-----
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Old 09-27-20, 08:34 AM
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You have a good eye for detail, juvela . Unfortunately, the whole tube sheared off, I wonder how it might have happened. Have you seen something like that before?
I know someone who can replace the seat tube for me, I think this frame deserves to be saved. This has to wait though, it's not my priority number one for now. I am just gonna strip the components off the frame, de-rust and clean what's salvagable and put away in a box. The test ride I was planning to do is clearly not gonna happen anymore. ​​​​​

I also have information that Wout Verhoeven has passed away recently. Sad news which leaves me almost no chances to figure out what this frame is.
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Old 09-27-20, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by alexnagui
Unfortunately, the whole tube sheared off, I wonder how it might have happened. Have you seen something like that before?
-----

Yes, usually when this happens it is right at the top of the bottom bracket shell's socket for the seat tube and is due to overheating during brazing.

In this case another possibility might be that pump holder clamp was overtightened.

Good to read you plan to have it repaired. Such a nice frame certainly deserves to be put right again.

-----
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Old 09-27-20, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by alexnagui
Thanks Juvela! It's hard to tell at this point which components are original to the bike even it they are period correct. I think the rear derailleur was chosen just because of the red color scheme, obviously someone was paying attention to detial here.
...
I would speculate that the original rear derailleur took a dive into the spokes, thus bending the dropout. The replacement may have been chosen for the color scheme or because it was a better mech (i am not fond of Hurets of that period). You can get the dropout fixed when you replace the seat tube.

What tubing do you experts think this is?

Nice bike and I sympathize with your disappointment on finding the broken tube.
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Old 09-27-20, 11:13 AM
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Such unfortunate news. Both of the frame and of Verhoeven's passing.

One man who might be of interest is Jan Weymans, of Mechelen. He is a frame builder who does lots of restoration work. And if this frame came from one of Verhoeven's Belgian connections he may also have a clue where it came from.
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Old 09-27-20, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----

Yes, usually when this happens it is right at the top of the bottom bracket shell's socket for the seat tube and is due to overheating during brazing.

In this case another possibility might be that pump holder clamp was overtightened.

Good to read you plan to have it repaired. Such a nice frame certainly deserves to be put right again.

-----
I can't imagine that it can break like that just by an overtightened clamp. The clamp compresses the tube and tubes have generally good resistance to compression. The clamp could have localized some impact load which led to such failure.
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Old 09-27-20, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie
Such unfortunate news. Both of the frame and of Verhoeven's passing.

One man who might be of interest is Jan Weymans, of Mechelen. He is a frame builder who does lots of restoration work. And if this frame came from one of Verhoeven's Belgian connections he may also have a clue where it came from.
Thanks for another tip, just wrote an e-mail to Jan.
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Old 09-28-20, 04:28 AM
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Got a reply from Jan Weymans that the frame was built by Louis Van den Broeck from Heist op den Berg. He is also willing to do the repairs.

I measured the distance between the holes for the head badge and it is around 37.5mm. Don't know if this can be very helpful though.

Some exra info: The underside of the Brooks saddle is marked with "65". The seatpost is 27,2mm. The freewheel is Cyclo 64.
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Old 09-28-20, 06:13 AM
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Interesting! And nice bike.

Looking forward to see it fixed up, rideable and all.
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Old 09-28-20, 07:32 AM
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I think it's beautiful and I look forward to seeing it brought back to life!
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Old 09-28-20, 08:29 AM
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I found a frame number on both the frame and the fork! It's "7668", so it could be the 76th frameset built in '68. Both the seat tube and the down tube are closed with some thick cloth or similar material where they enter the bottom bracket. Well, that could have led to the failure, I suppose. If water entered the seat tube and couldn't penetrate that seal, that could have caused some serious rust.

I also weighted the frameset, the frame is 2330 gr and the fork is 900 gr.






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Old 09-29-20, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by alexnagui
Got a reply from Jan Weymans that the frame was built by Louis Van den Broeck from Heist op den Berg. He is also willing to do the repairs. (...)
That is wonderful as well as interesting news! I have been searching, but I can't find any mention of Van den Broeck, the frame builder. Be sure to ask Jan about him, and report back here. Please.
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Old 09-29-20, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by alexnagui
I found a frame number on both the frame and the fork! It's "7668", so it could be the 76th frameset built in '68. Both the seat tube and the down tube are closed with some thick cloth or similar material where they enter the bottom bracket. Well, that could have led to the failure, I suppose. If water entered the seat tube and couldn't penetrate that seal, that could have caused some serious rust.
-----

back before the commercially made plastic bottom bracket sheaths were widely available some folks would push wadding into the tube ends at the bottom bracket shell with the idea it would keep dirt out of the bearings. this may be what was done here.

will be interested to read what you learn regarding a date for the frame. have been guessing it to be a bit earlier than 1968 but then am wildlly incorrect much of the time.

-----
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Old 10-01-20, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----

If original bottom bracket spindle yet present you should find a two digit number stamped into one of the taper flats. If conveninet, please make an image.


-----
Which spindle is that, juvela ?

The bottom bracket is not a Stronglight Competition unit as I at first expected it to be. The DS cup is different style. There are no markings on the middle portion of the spindle but there is indeed a marking on one of the drive side tape flats. It looks like NF 77, not sure about 77 though. The NDS cup is marked with an "A", does it mean Anglais?





Was wondering about the headset as well. The locknut is Magistroni , but the rest of the headset looks very French to me. The tabbed washer is marked with "Marque W Deposee" and the bearing surfaces of the cups and races are marked with capital letters W or something which looks like that. I recall seeing this somewhere but can't find it anymore on the web.



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