Do you stop at stop signs?
#102
Junior Member
I think of every traffic light and stop sign as Stop all ways. Once I slow and make sure there isn't incoming traffic, I'll go with confidence.
I usually keep pedaling at the greens, although now I don't believe I should do it with 100% confidence anymore.
I usually keep pedaling at the greens, although now I don't believe I should do it with 100% confidence anymore.
#103
Senior Member
The single most convincing thing that changed my conduct when I started bicycle commuting years ago was to read as many accident reports as I could find. EVERY SINGLE ONE--let me repeat that--EVERY SINGLE ONE had the motorist saying "I didn't see them." Physically, that's probably impossible. But in terms of the way drivers process information, I think that's true: they don't process bicycles for some reason.
Should they? Yes.
Are they too distracted? Yes.
Do some of those drivers belong off the streets? Yes.
But facts is facts. We are invisible to them. Having been nearly hit now twice in a week (don't tell my wife) even with day-glo clothing and blinking lights and now a horn, I'm dialing back my cycling to commuting days and stopping (or California-stopping) at stop signs, driveways, intersecting streets. I'm not quite ready to be dead.
Should they? Yes.
Are they too distracted? Yes.
Do some of those drivers belong off the streets? Yes.
But facts is facts. We are invisible to them. Having been nearly hit now twice in a week (don't tell my wife) even with day-glo clothing and blinking lights and now a horn, I'm dialing back my cycling to commuting days and stopping (or California-stopping) at stop signs, driveways, intersecting streets. I'm not quite ready to be dead.
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#104
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Do you stop at stop signs?
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#105
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I would give this a "mostly, yes" in that for many of the stop signs in the area(s) I (used to) ride NOT stopping would end up with you as a long greasy streak down a state highway. In neighborhoods and back roads with clear view likely not.
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#106
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I am a hypocrite. I do not stop for stop signs, but I think I should.
If we do not follow the rules of the road then we forfeit our right to complain about cars, trucks and motorcycles who do not respect our right to share the road with them.
I am just starting to ride more and I am revisiting my position on this subject. Not sure I will stop when I have a clear view and am completely sure there is no one in my way. But will I really ever be 100% sure there is not a pedestrian about to step out of a shadow, from behind a tree, a small child easy to miss?
If we do not follow the rules of the road then we forfeit our right to complain about cars, trucks and motorcycles who do not respect our right to share the road with them.
I am just starting to ride more and I am revisiting my position on this subject. Not sure I will stop when I have a clear view and am completely sure there is no one in my way. But will I really ever be 100% sure there is not a pedestrian about to step out of a shadow, from behind a tree, a small child easy to miss?
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Sometimes hi viz vest can make you less visible. The brain filters is out as "trash bag", "crossing guard" or "construction worker" and ignores it assuming it is not a threat, not expecting it to be moving as fast as a bicycle moves. Hunter orange may stand out in the woods, but not in the city.
Perception of speed and distance is another issue. Two headlights create a means of judging distance and speed. One little headlight on a bicycle is difficult to judge either speed or distance.
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#110
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I was watching the video article about the latest Cannonball Run winner. They made record time across the US during the Rona "pandemic". The narrator of the story pointed out that one of the hardest aspects of the whole trip was Manhattan. He said that since this has been going on the city is taken over with cyclists and pedestrians, the former running stop signs and lights like they don't even exist. Had several near incidents as they made their way out of the city/to the highway.
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#111
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I was watching the video article about the latest Cannonball Run winner. They made record time across the US during the Rona "pandemic". The narrator of the story pointed out that one of the hardest aspects of the whole trip was Manhattan. He said that since this has been going on the city is taken over with cyclists and pedestrians, the former running stop signs and lights like they don't even exist. Had several near incidents as they made their way out of the city/to the highway.
Cannonball has been and always will be a horribly dangerous stunt by irresponsible groups of “people.”
That you bought into their propaganda about bicyclists and pedestrians is amazing.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 08-24-20 at 07:34 AM.
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#112
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The Manhattan portion of the Cannonball Run takes about 5 minutes, out of a “race” that takes over 24 hours. To give you an idea how “fast” the "race" is through Manhattan, it takes about ten minutes to ride a citibike crosstown from the Red Ball.
Cannonball has been and always will be a horribly dangerous stunt by irresponsible groups of “people.”
That you bought into their propaganda about bicyclists and pedestrians is amazing.
-mr. bill
Cannonball has been and always will be a horribly dangerous stunt by irresponsible groups of “people.”
That you bought into their propaganda about bicyclists and pedestrians is amazing.
-mr. bill
I personally enjoy the story behind and history of these trials. It's a neat part of Americana and cool car guy stuff, IF illegal AND irresponsible as heck.
This wasn't some pass judgement call, or trying to say one is better than the other. Lighten up Francis.
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#113
Senior Member
Like pretty much everyone else, I stop on my bike, as often as I stop when I’m driving my car.
I see this as a people problem. It bugs me that people think of it as a cycling problem because it reveals people who do not want to face the truth that motorists, like cyclists, are people
I see this as a people problem. It bugs me that people think of it as a cycling problem because it reveals people who do not want to face the truth that motorists, like cyclists, are people
#114
Senior Member
Running a red light on a bicycle in most places will get you the same ticket, same fine, same points on your drivers license, and same hike in your insurance as you would get if you were driving a car. Yet most cyclists seem to run stop signs without a second thought. That usually changes after they get a ticket.
#116
Non omnino gravis
Running a red light on a bicycle in most places will get you the same ticket, same fine, same points on your drivers license, and same hike in your insurance as you would get if you were driving a car. Yet most cyclists seem to run stop signs without a second thought. That usually changes after they get a ticket.
Jurisdictions would only target cyclists as a source of revenue. There is no applicable public safety issue-- maybe 1-2 people a year get killed by someone on a bicycle (fault notwithstanding) while cars hit over 130,000 pedestrians a year, and kill one every 88 minutes.
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#117
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Maybe true some places, but absolutely not most. Twenty states do not consider a bicycle to be a vehicle-- and beyond that, as a license is not required to operate one in any state, there's no way to gets points on your driver's license (or have your license affected in any way) from any infraction incurred while on a bicycle. Same for insurance. Your insurance cannot penalize you for a violation on a non-vehicle. What you get is a ticket-- which is generally accompanied by a fine. Similar to a ticket for a cracked windshield or a headlight out in a car. Bicycles are not cars, and the laws in place for cars do not generally take bicycles into account. So I reciprocate.
Jurisdictions would only target cyclists as a source of revenue. There is no applicable public safety issue-- maybe 1-2 people a year get killed by someone on a bicycle (fault notwithstanding) while cars hit over 130,000 pedestrians a year, and kill one every 88 minutes.
Jurisdictions would only target cyclists as a source of revenue. There is no applicable public safety issue-- maybe 1-2 people a year get killed by someone on a bicycle (fault notwithstanding) while cars hit over 130,000 pedestrians a year, and kill one every 88 minutes.
Jurisdictions generally do not target anyone as a source of revenue, it is a matter of public safety. In case you never learned it in driving school, running stop signs is dangerous, and people, including bicyclists, have been killed when running red lights. Perhaps you can argue that drinking gasoline is not really a bad thing, or that hunting for tigers in India with a pocket knife is not entirely silly. Anyone with a grasp of language and a little skill at debating can make a persuasive argument to support the most ludicrous thing.
As a former traffic homicide officer for large police department, I am familiar with the subject.
#118
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You are wrong in one perspective. Though you don't need to have a license to ride a bike in some states, you can still be issued a ticket for running a stop sign or red light. And yes, you will indeed get points on your driving record. You do not need to have a drivers license to have a driving record. More than one parent has had a child who has gotten a ticket while riding a bike, and then found out that points from those tickets applied to their kids' driving record when they eventually got their licenses.
Here in Massachusetts, M.G.L. Chapter 85 Section 11 E, the relevant excerpt:
"A police officer shall use the ticketing procedure described in chapter 90C to cite a bicyclist for a traffic law violation but the violation shall not affect the status of the bicyclist's license to operate a motor vehicle nor shall it affect the bicyclist's status in the safe driver insurance plan. When a citation is issued to a bicyclist, it shall be clearly indicated on the ticket that the violator is a bicyclist, and failure to do so shall be a defense to the violation.
The parent or guardian of a person under 18 years of age shall not authorize or knowingly permit that person to violate this section. A violation of this section by a person under 18 years of age shall not affect any civil right or liability nor shall the violation be a criminal offense. If the offender is under 16 years of age, the officer may give the notice to the parent or guardian of the offender."
The bicycle equipment regulations (and a couple of bicycle specific moving violations) are covered in Chapter 85 Section 11B, relevant excerpt:
"Violations of any provision of this section except violations of subclause (iii) of clause (2) shall be punished by a fine of not more than twenty dollars. The parent or guardian of any person under age eighteen shall not authorize or knowingly permit any such person to violate any of the provisions of this section. A bicycle operated by a person under the age of eighteen in violation of this section may be impounded by the police department, or in a town which has no police department, by the selectmen, for a period not to exceed fifteen days. A violation of any provision of this section by a minor under the age of eighteen shall not affect any civil right or liability nor shall such violation be considered a criminal offense."
Finally, driver's points accumulated from birth? I'll have to pull a Missouri on you. Show me ONE state.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 08-31-20 at 09:27 AM.
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#119
Non omnino gravis
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I think we should stop more. I have started to slow down more. But I only come to a complete stop for major roads or if there are vehicles in my way.
#121
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I generally don't stop for stop signs here in our small town, but the traffic level is low. Especially if I'm out riding at 5 AM. But... I constantly look out for traffic both directions several times before proceeding through.
That being said, if I'm riding in an unfamiliar area, I tend to stop at stop signs. At home, I know which streets are going to be the busy streets. When I'm out elsewhere, I won't know how likely there is to be cross traffic.
That being said, if I'm riding in an unfamiliar area, I tend to stop at stop signs. At home, I know which streets are going to be the busy streets. When I'm out elsewhere, I won't know how likely there is to be cross traffic.
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I have been more aware of the conditions around stop signs recently. Often the combination of slower speed and better visibility on a bicycle gets me to a stop sign with confidence that it is safe to proceed with out stopping. This is true less often in a car.
Bicycles are also more maneuverable and accelerate more slowly. Therefore I think that bicycles not stopping for stop signs is considerably safer for others than a car. The greater exposure on a bicycle changes the calculus around safety for the rider.
However, I think bicycle riders should come to a complete stop at stop signs because not matter how much you think you see, you cannot possibly see everything. Stopping helps others you might not see, see you and behave accordingly.
In addition, I think we should stop to engender respect from others on road ways. Respect of others makes us all safer since the respect of others will increase the courtesy we benefit from.
I do not see myself stopping completely all the time, but I am going to slow down more. And I will yield right of way where I should.
Bicycles are also more maneuverable and accelerate more slowly. Therefore I think that bicycles not stopping for stop signs is considerably safer for others than a car. The greater exposure on a bicycle changes the calculus around safety for the rider.
However, I think bicycle riders should come to a complete stop at stop signs because not matter how much you think you see, you cannot possibly see everything. Stopping helps others you might not see, see you and behave accordingly.
In addition, I think we should stop to engender respect from others on road ways. Respect of others makes us all safer since the respect of others will increase the courtesy we benefit from.
I do not see myself stopping completely all the time, but I am going to slow down more. And I will yield right of way where I should.
#123
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Generally, when I roll through a stop sign on my bike, I'm not rolling through any faster than most cars usually do. Plus with far less weight than a car, I can stop a lot quicker if I need to.
#124
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That has not been my observation. I almost always come to a complete stop in a car and rarely come to a complete stop on my bicycle. My practice is similar to the practice of most I ride with and see on the road.
I think we should stop more. I have started to slow down more. But I only come to a complete stop for major roads or if there are vehicles in my way.
I think we should stop more. I have started to slow down more. But I only come to a complete stop for major roads or if there are vehicles in my way.
It sucks having to come to a complete stop in my velo. That thing weighs 80 lbs, and takes a bit of work to get rolling again.
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#125
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I stop if there's another car approaching. If I don't see anyone, I roll through. I also run red lights, but more cautiously. I'm a big fan of roads with lots of stop signs because it keeps the cars away. I think it's a bit of an unspoken rule some places that those streets are the bicycle streets.